Forth Language

[devwebcl]

Hello,

 

Anyone knows if any of the Forth implementation for Atari has similar graphics like Atari Basic, I mean plot x,y and all those commands.

 

I know http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG/LangForth that is a great repository for Atari programming, but I dont know which implementation to use.

 

Anyonw has worked in any of these, or has information, suggestion and/or documention about this?

 

Kind Regards,

 

--devwebcl

[cas]

Hi,

 

Graphic Forth has the most advanced grpahics commands. Unfortunatly the documentation is in german language only and the implementation is/was a commercial one (sources are not open).

http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG...rthGraphicForth

 

Antic Forth 1.4s has all the commands known from Atari basic, incuding graphics, setcolor, plot, drawto etc.

http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG/LangForthAntic

 

If you want to use a more modern Forth, I can implement all the needed graphics commands for you in X-Forth or the (yet to be released, cross-platform) VolksForth 6502 Atari (F83 Forth).

 

Best reards

 

Carsten Strotmann

[devwebcl]

Great!

 

Always I'm going to prefer a cross-compiler because I have better tools in my current pc (sorry atari )

 

Please, let me know if you release such version.

 

regards,

 

devwebcl

[cas]

Great!

 

Always I'm going to prefer a cross-compiler because I have better tools in my current pc (sorry atari  )

 

Please, let me know if you release such version.

 

regards,

 

devwebcl

953988[/snapback]

 

Hi,

 

well, by design, almost every Forth System can also be used as a cross/meta-compiler. If you prefer to work on a PC (I'm not sure why, but anyway), you can use Win32Forth, GNU-Forth (with 6502-Cross-Compile Target) or VolksForth.

 

However don't mix up Forth with an ordinary compiler language like C or Pascal. Forth works very different. A Forth Cross/Target Compiler is most often used to port Forth to a new system, and further development is then done on the traget system.

 

When using a Forth Crosscompiler for an application or game, you are not making use of one of Forth biggest feature: incremental, interactive testing and debugging

 

If you are concerned about compiling speed, I recommend using a Atari Forth System in an Emulator on PC where you can enable full speed emulation.

 

If you care about having a good PC Editor, this is also not a problem: Edit you source using the PC Editor, save to disk, have the Atari Forth to load/include the Forth source from Atari Filesystem using the Atari Emulator Harddisk Emulation.

 

BTW, the 5th place in this years ABBUC Software competition, the Game "Stroq", was written 100% in Forth (X-Forth).

 

If you need help with a Forth CrossCompiler on PC, or with an Atari Forth, please contact me.

 

Cheers

Carsten

 

Remember:

"C makes you think that C is the world's greatest language. Forth makes you think that you're the world's greatest programmer."

[devwebcl]

If you care about having a good PC Editor, this is also not a problem: Edit you source using the PC Editor, save to disk, have the Atari Forth to load/include the Forth source from Atari Filesystem using the Atari Emulator Harddisk Emulation.

 

Yes, I made a wrong question, finally my idea was to use a Win32 Editor with highlighting and all those featrures that help in the programming to do some forth (I have one already), but with emulator and context editor I'm Ok.

 

I wonder how good is the performance of Forth programs?

Did you publish the forth game to download?

 

I'd like to do something with Forth (because is very similar to System/User Rpl) but I'm not sure where to start).

 

Kind Regards,

 

Devwebcl

[cas]

I wonder how good is the performance of Forth programs?

Did you publish the forth game to download?

 

957327[/snapback]

 

Well, it is hard to compare the speed of Forth with other languages, because you can change (and thus optimize) almost any part of the system. In BASIC, you cannot chnage and optimize the "print" command, in Forth you can (and all other commands/words and even the internal interpreter and compiler if you like).

 

Un-Optimized Forth Programms are faster than Basic (comparable with compiled Turbo-Basic) and slower than compiler languages like ACTION!, Quick or CC65.

 

But of course the way to go is to write the program in high level Forth, test the concepts, and then optimize the 10% of the programm that needs the speed. You do this by "overloading" Forth words with new versions of that word, optimized (maybe written with the Forth-build-in 6502 Assembler) for the programm, and then you end up with a program that is not slower that a program written entirely in Machine Language.

 

It is said (I cannot prove) that some of the 1980 ATARI amusement arcade games (the other ATARI Company) were written in Forth.

 

Attached please find the ATR bootable Version of Stroq. I will publish the Source Code once I have cleaned it a little bit.

stroq.atr.gz

Edited November 1, 2005 by cas

[cas]

I'd like to do something with Forth (because is very similar to System/User Rpl) but I'm not sure where to start).

 

957327[/snapback]

 

Hello,

 

to get a Start with Forth, go to the Forth Wikipedia Page, go to books and tutorials section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_programming_language

 

Start with the book "A Beginner's Guide To Forth" by J.V. Noble

http://www.computer-books.us/forth.php

 

Steven Pelcs book is a good book (free, online) to continue:

http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk/arena/ProgramForth.pdf

 

Later, I would recommend Thinking Forth:

http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/

 

You're interested in RPL, and your Homepages lists some RPL Programs.

 

Because Forth is so flexible, how about a project implementing RPL in Forth? (Read: add new Forth-Words to a Atari-Forth that RPL Programs can be compiled and executed)

 

 

So that HP Calculator Programms can be

 

a) executed on an Atari 8-Bit

b) HP RPL Programs can be written and debugged on an Atari (or other Home/PC-Computer)

 

Best regards

 

Carsten

Edited November 2, 2005 by cas

[devwebcl]

You're interested in RPL, and your Homepages lists some RPL Programs.

 

Because Forth is so flexible, how about a project implementing RPL in Forth? (Read: add new Forth-Words to a Atari-Forth that RPL Programs can be compiled and executed)

 

So that HP Calculator Programms can be

 

a) executed on an Atari 8-Bit

b) HP RPL Programs can be written and debugged on an Atari (or other Home/PC-Computer)

 

Yes, I was thinking something similar, but with the difference of architecture of objects in RPL I was thinkg first to do a parser "to translate" RPL code to Forth, and then be able to run it on an Atari.

 

Thanks for your tips I am browsing right now

 

Cheers,

 

Devwebcl

[devwebcl]

Finally I got "Forth Programming" from Leo J. Scanlon, nice book (Always I do prefer to get a book rather print web pages ).

 

Why with Fig-Forth 1.4S sometimes the emulator crashes?

this fig-forth implementation wasn't for XL series?

 

--devwebcl

[cas]

Finally I got "Forth Programming" from Leo J. Scanlon, nice book (Always I do prefer to get a book  rather print web pages ).

 

Why with Fig-Forth 1.4S sometimes the emulator crashes?

this fig-forth implementation wasn't for XL series?

 

--devwebcl

981696[/snapback]

 

FIG-Forth 1.4S should work fine on an XL. If the Emulator crashes, it is most likely an error in the Emulator Code (does the Emulator crash or does the Emulator report that the Atari has crashed).

 

I cannot help you with FIG-Forth 1.4s, because as far as I know the sourcecode of the Atari FIG-Forth 1.4s was never published.

 

I can recommend using X-FORTH. It is based on the original 6502 FIG-Forth, but with some extensions like the File Interface (instead of Block I/O). If you need something that is in FIG-Forth 1.4s that is not in X-FORTH, tell me and I will send you source modules that will implement the missing features.

 

For X-FORTH and volksFORTH (upcoming) I can provide support, because the source is open.

 

Best regards

 

carsten

[devwebcl]

anybody knows if the book: "Forth on the Atari: Learning by Using" by Ekkehard Floegel is for 8-bit platform?

 

I know I dont need it for programming (Already I have a lot of information for this language), however I'd like to get it for a collection issue.

 

cheers,

 

devwebcl