I'll still buy a Generation Nex...

[omne]

Well, the quick answer is that Microsoft hasn't announced which games that they will support in the 360 - so that's impossible. However, it goes without saying that they will announce it, and even their official magazine will publish it.

 

After release, and after the pre-order customer have their consoles. Thank You so much for your help.

 

My point is that this is how business is done. Dislike it if you wish. Just be sure to open your eyes that Messiah has done absolutely nothing that you don't see every day in the video game business and others.

 

Like I said, this community eats it's own young.

[Jagasian]

My point is that this is how business is done. Dislike it if you wish. Just be sure to open your eyes that Messiah has done absolutely nothing that you don't see every day in the video game business and others.

 

Like I said, this community eats it's own young.

 

Yes, in business people lie, cheat, and steal. That does not make it right. In fact, the method of arguement that you use is a common logical fallacy called "tu quoque". I would also like to add that the "community" does not eat its own young, but it is very defensive when it comes to people trying to rip off the community. Messiah did NOT design their own clone. Instead, they did what other Famiclones have been doing for a decade now: wrap a NES-on-a-chip (NOAC) up in a nice looking plastic shell and box. I've seen it all, Famiclones that look like any game system you can think of: Famicom, NES, SNES, Genesis, PSX, PS2, N64, etc. Some look nicer than others, some have games built-in, some are even built into the controller, but in the end what is on the inside counts, and what is inside is a crappy NOAC. At least some of these clone manufacturers wrap up a NOAC into a portable gaming system like the Pocket Fami, which was also released this year but not hyped like the NEX:

http://nesworld.com/pockfami.htm

Good pics: http://www.mo5.com/obsolete/301-musee-hist...ocket-fami.html

 

Messiah has been less than honest about the fact that it is just another "me too" NOAC based clone with crappy compatibility. The anger is not about destroying somebody that is contributing to the community, but instead is about pointing out that Messiah is doing nothing more than taking advantage of the community with yet another NOAC based Famiclone. An overpriced one at that. A refurbished toaster NES or a USA Neo Fami costs at least half the price of a NEX, and the official NES is more compatible than the NEX.

 

With all of the fake news articles and fake reviews claiming the greatness of Messiah's NEX gaming system, and the fact that the NEX is just a crappy overpriced NOAC based clone is why there is so much negative reaction to Messiah's NEX.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jagasian

[efdious]

Messiah is the slimiest company I've yet to see try to cash in on the recent retro gaming craze. 

 

OK, wait. Has anyone tried to get their money back from Messiah? I mean, if they refund your money 100%, then they can't be THAT slimy. I think I remember someone mentioning getting a full refund on another forum...

 

-b

[Jagasian]

OK, wait.  Has anyone tried to get their money back from Messiah?  I mean, if they refund your money 100%, then they can't be THAT slimy.  I think I remember someone mentioning getting a full refund on another forum...

 

Yes, I was a bit hyperbolic, as there are people that will literally just take your money and not even send you a product. Most of us have been burned on Ebay by such people. But let me just quote one of the recent posts over at NES Dev:

 

I was the guest that posted earlier about SMB3 and Kirby's Adventure. I've tried to contact Messiah 2 times by e-mail and once by phone to return my NEX console and, so far, no response.

 

I e-mailed them on both their "contact us" and "support" pages, and called their 1-800 number. The 1-800 number gives you 2 options, "dial your party's extension" or "press 0 for operator". Pressing 0 just gives you a voice mailbox.

 

I'm gonna keep trying to contact them via e-mail and phone, but if I can't get in contact with them by next friday in some way, shape, or form, I'm declaring this a scam and filing a complaint with the LA Better Business Bureau.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jagasian

[n8littlefield]

Yeah, I've heard they are giving full refunds. I really expect given the information on their website BEFORE they updated w/ compatibility information that they feel like if they don't they would get into serious trouble.

 

I agree completely with Jag on this one. While I have nothing against NOAC systems (I love mine), I do have a problem with the lying from Messiah. It looks prettier than the normal NOAC, but let's face it you can't polish a turd.

[Lacan]

But what type of NOAC is Messiah using? I know it sounds like they aren't using the NOAC from Neo Fami or Family Boy, which has better compatibility then Generation Nex's NOAC.

[Teknik_SE-R]

omne...

 

dishonesty isn't defined as "blatantly lying"

lack of being forthcoming is also dishonesty

 

Considering the situation and my past experience, a legit "false advertising" class action lawsuit could easily be brought up against Messiah (if a lrge group chose to do so) for their own press release in july, and for allowing those they paid to do reviews falsely stating "plays all (your favorite) NES games" Believe me I know.

 

FYI I now work for a gov't contractor, and if something like this would have happened with the government as the customer, the government would crush them like a bug "with the wrath of God" because they simply wouldn't stand for it (i'm talking to the point of even ruining the company's janitor's track record!). and neither should the general public.

 

Your blatant defense of the SLIMEY (YES, SLIMEY!!!) corporate marketing scheme of the 21st century clearly indicates either:

 

1. You are one of the hundreds of thousands of SLIMEY marketing assholes in this country

 

2. You have some connection with messiah

 

one more thing for OMNE: all of the other companies you mention allow independent reviewers to post their thoughts on their products in an easily accessible place, and at least within a reasonable timeframe of when it is commercially available. Not that its messiahs fault for the shipping delays they claimed, but it is their responsibility for them to make sure their customer is comfortable with the product they buy, as it is with all companies. if the customer isn't comfortable, they take their business elsewhere and the company dies. so while being deceptive (intentionally or not!) can bring in more profits initially, it is actually kamakaze (sp?). because regardless of if it was on purpose or not, it still puts a bad rap on the company

 

as is what you see here. I don't care if the vagueness and false innuendos of compatibility were intentional or not, if it stinks, it smells, and there are at least five other companies that have competing products that never make false promises and I almost EXPECT their products to be sub-par, if thats what you want to call it. at least there is no disappointment or bad taste left in my mouth for the company. and that is more satisfying than dealing with the bullshit.

 

I know I'm eating my own words, but from a global point of view (marketing, price, looks, function and all), i'd take any "decent" clone over a NEX anyday

 

SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY! SLIMEY!

 

 

for everyone else:

 

I don't think that MESSIAH sucks or is a slimey piece of SH!T, but I do believe they were dishonest about the whole NEX thing, and have, in general, put a huge damper on my opinion of them.

 

I think the entire "cult" (dare I say) NES following has also been damaged as a whole. This is the group of individuals that helpedMessiah get their start and will be their primary/ consistent customer base in the future, IF they get their act back together.

 

another FYI: I ordered a NEX (possibly considering getting a refund before its shipped) and i also have thier wireless controllers. I absolutely love their controllers. they freaking rock. I think they did a good job marketing them, imho their function and build is 1st party quality, and they way they handled the transaction was very professional and hastle free for me, the customer. but the NEX ordeal has definitely affected my opinioin of them. Im hoping they get their act together and be more forthcoming about the system, and perhaps in the future they will release a better version. From what I've seen/heard, everything is top notch besides the NOAC "issue".

 

I don't necessarily think that Messiah purchased NOAC for use in the NEX. I don't know, but I'm not going to claim that they most definitely did use one either. Quite possibly, the programmer could have buit his own NOAC from the ground up and encountered the same problems as other NOAC's. i know with the very very very simple programs I have written, some of my classmates encountered the same glitches. most likely becasue we were taught to use the same approach to program writing. this could be the case with the messiah noac and other noac's. Again, just a theory.

[carpecarne]

I've been trying to get a refund on my pre-order and I'm not getting ahold of anyone.

 

I keep trying though.

 

My opinion on the whole thing: they whipped up a lot of hype, and a lot of suckers bought it (including me). Who's the more foolish? The Fool or the fool who follows him?

 

 

UPDATE: I just got ahold of them through their sales department. They were nice and issued me a full refund. So PHEW! That's taken care of.

Edited November 4, 2005 by carpecarne

[omne]

I own and operate www.oldschoolgamer.ca. OSG is the Canadian distributor for Messiah in Canada.

 

OSG will offer full product purchase price refunds for all UNOPENED returned NEX game consoles purchased from OSG. Opened consoles will not be refunded.

 

Slimey my ass.

 

I have local mall based game stores CLAMOURING for these for the Christmas season, for non collector customers, who just want to play some NES games. The entire first batch is a gauranteed sell out. The community is simply not a sales factor.

 

If OSG does as well as I expect to with the NEX, NEX sales will represent less than 0.5% of the fiscal years sales revenue. OSG does far more business in toaster NES refurbishing, and top loader AV modding, than NEX sales can ever begin to come close to. OSG simply plans to offer both options, and the consumer can decide.

 

Why am I defending Messiah?

 

Is it because I am selling the consoles in Canada? Nope. NEX sales success (volume sales) have nothing to do with the community, and have everything to do with capturing the imagination of the casual gamers. This great new console Jagasian trumpets sounds great, except it won't play original carts. I cannot imagine something like that ever being sold in any game store. They can't sell it's games. The business model for that is beyond my understanding. Also NEX sales are a small sideline to what OSG does, and frankly it's success or failure will not really have any impact on OSG one way or the other.

 

I defend Messiah because I have spoken to both the founders, and I know that they have the most honest of intentions, and have done their best. They are gamers like us, who have tried to take their hobby to the next level. Good or bad, the consumer can decide. Vote with your money.

 

 

It's pretty sad that now that I've voiced my opinions on this subject, that my professional integrity is being questioned.

 

1. You are one of the hundreds of thousands of SLIMEY marketing assholes in this country

 

And so on. Flame me and my opinion all you want. My professionalism and service to the collector community, casual gamers, and professional video game retailers stands on it's own.

 

 

Jagasian, make sure your friend who is developing the new NES type console (that plays roms on mem cards) pays close attention to what is happening here. His console has the benefits of speculation and hype right now, but at some point he may get it made. Once that happens, he gets to answer for any compromises he makes, prices he charges, and features he puts in or leaves out, in the forum court of public opinion.

 

He should know that this community easily turns on it's own.

 

 

/waits for community to turn on me now for having an unpopular take on the situation.

[n8littlefield]

I want to say, I see your point. But, you have an advantage, and your customers have an advantage in that you have the list in front of you now as to which games don't work. Many of the people who ordered one didn't have that luxury. I think for you as a reseller, it's a GREAT system, you have a clone system to sell people that is built better, has wonderful packaging (with no engrish), and you can EASILY use to sell another accessory (the controllers) and increase profit even more. Great product for you to sell and a casual gamer to buy, it's the hardcore audience that followed this that are hurt - and let's be fair, they are turning on Messiah for Messiah taking their money and not being honest with the consumer.

 

Here's the underlying issue to me:

 

Messiah made it's money primarily on the hardcore classic gaming crowd. The money that made the NEX came from controller sales and NEX preorders from dedicated classic console gamers. Then, they get their product, and they are told "We never said it was for you, hardcore audience, it's for the casual gamer who doesn't care about it playing everygame perfectly." I think that the audience on a site like this, or digitpress, who has helped support Messiah on this project feels used and cheated.

[omne]

Lets make one thing clear: My opinions are mine alone. I do not represent Messiah in any way shape or form, nor is my company affiliated with or owned by Messaih or any of it's partners. OSG is independent, and so are my opinions.

 

OSG Canadian pre-order customers also qualify for that refund on unopened consoles.

 

Again, links to *promises* made by Messiah that are broken could change my mind. I've re-read the official press release and it makes no mention of full compatibility, or that it would play ALL NES games.

 

It would seem Messiah's biggest crime here is not living up to the expectations some had for it. Show me evidence of lies, and I'll change my mind.

 

Pre ordering anything is a risk. A close friend of mine did not get in on the NEX pre-order through me. He wanted to see one first. Wow. Imagine that. He may still get one, he may not. I don't know. His call, his money.

 

It's like you guys expect a frank unbiased report on everything about the console, before the information exists, and from then from the salesman. It's like bitching to Ford because the 2007 Mustang you custom ordered, has a cupholder that won't hold your favourite cup. "The bastards said it would hold a coffee cup!! SLIMY LIARS!!" Guess if the guy was that particular, he possibly shouldn't have pre-ordered. Betcha Ford wouldn't take a refund on that Mustang. I don't see a difference.

 

I pre-ordered an Xbox 360. I expect it to pale in comparision to my OSG upgraded Xbox, so I likely will not be disappointed. My expectations are reasonable. Whatever MS feeds me I'll believe when I see.

 

The Intellivision was supposed to become a full blown powerful computer. They SAID SO in press releases!!!

 

The PS2 Emotion Engine was supposed to be so powerful they feared Iraq would use it to guide ballistic missiles! They SAID SO!!

 

 

Now we know.

 

It would seem someone got a refund. Wow. Slimey indeed.

Edited November 4, 2005 by omne

[n8littlefield]

I think it's really clear that you don't work for Messiah, I hope that other's don't unfairly connect you. Like I said for a retailer, especially one that sells old NES games, this thing is really a great deal. You can put it up, even with the list of games that don't run, and figure if someone buys it they'll pick up a few games, maybe the wireless controllers, and no-one feels bad. I think it's really the preorder people who were hurt.

 

I think calling omne slimey and accusing him of questionable sales tactics is completely unfair. Omne as a reseller isn't responsible at all for this.

 

I disagree with omne in that I feel if Messiah puts out a press statement saying it plays your favorite games, and then brags about a custom designed chip for better compatibility, that we should have expected better results than a normal NOAC. However, I don't see attacking him as a part of Messiah. He's simply selling a product that, quite frankly, to a casual gamer, is a very attractive package.

[Flojomojo]

I think for you as a reseller, it's a GREAT system, you have a clone system to sell people that is built better, has wonderful packaging (with no engrish), and you can EASILY use to sell another accessory (the controllers) and increase profit even more.  Great product for you to sell and a casual gamer to buy, it's the hardcore audience that followed this that are hurt - and let's be fair, they are turning on Messiah for Messiah taking their money and not being honest with the consumer.

960255[/snapback]

Nate is right on here. The backlash against the NEX is very similar to how we treated the Flashback 1. Casual people will love the NEX for what it is and deal with its shortcomings. Many of them might even assume they have bad cartridges instead of jumping on the NOAC issue.

 

Maybe when the dust settles, this thing will still be a retail hit despite the rhetoric coming from the "we want the NES back foundation." I suspect it will do quite well in the brick and mortar stores like Gamestop, where there's no internet to consult for opinions before impulse-buying.

 

I want a version 2 with better compatibility, included wireless controllers, and a flash card reader.

[Jagasian]

omne,

 

Have you heard about the improved AV mod for the top loading NES? The original AV mod resulted in video that still wasn't as good as a toaster's video output. Well, the guys at NES Dev came up with an improved AV mod, which, they claim, makes the AV output as good as a toaster's. Here is the thread:

http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=601

 

If you sold pre-modded top loaders that used the new AV mod, I think you would have a very popular item on your hands. Also, currently, do you sell pre-modded systems, or only provide a modding service? I personally think that your customers are better served by professionally refurbished toasters and AV modded top loaders than they are by yet another "me too" Famiclone.

 

An electronics store wouldn't sell a DVD player that was known to have issues playing certain DVDs, so why sell a game system that has the same problem? Unlike the Xbox 360, which you brought up, the NEX's main purpose is to play Famicom/NES games, while the XBox 360's main purpose is to play Xbox 360 games. The 360 does have a peripherial feature that it can play some Xbox 1 games, but this is not its central purpose. If Microsoft sold a new revision of the Xbox 1, which couldn't even run 5% of Xbox games, and ran basically all other games with the wrong colors, missing sounds, off-tune sounds, and additional glitches, you can be sure that hell would be raised.

 

Also, I am not friends with kevtris, but I am a fan. I can safely say that he is the most knowledgable man on this planet, with regards to the workings of the Famicom and NES. I just wish Messiah spent a few extra bucks to pay him to overlook their design. However, I don't think that was ever their intention. They thought they could cut costs by outsourcing their R&D.

 

Also, the fact that kevtris's clone does not play carts is as much a disadvantage as the fact that an iPod does not play CDs. kevtris also sells a device for ripping your own NES and Famicom carts. Playing NES and Famicom games off of modern flash cards is far more reliable (and convenient) than playing them off of old carts with dead or dying save game batteries. The end result, however, is exactly the same as an official toaster NES... except for the optional s-video output of course It should also be pointed out that kevtris is open and upfront about the current limitations, inaccuracies, and incompatibilities of his system. Messiah on the other hand blew smoke for months, but now that the NEX has shipped, we have been able to test it out for ourselves and open it up and see if it uses a NOAC or not. We now know the truth, and it differs from the story that Messiah portrayed.

 

By the way, care to comment on Messiah's claims that it is impossible for a clone to implement S-video output because the games weren't programmed for it? Sounds like a lie to me. The reality is that NOACs natively output RCA composite video, and therefore if your clone is designed to use a pre-existing NOAC, true S-video output is impossible. (However, I am sure there are NOAC based clones that fake S-video output by converting, internally, from RCA composite to S-video.)

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jagasian

[omne]

I have indeed been getting a lot of interest in that new Top loader AV mod, I will offer it, but until I've tested it myself, I'm not advertising it. I have a local store owner here who wants me to do his. Once it's done, I'll have an idea on quality, input costs, etc.

 

I do mostly upgrades of consoles supplied. As I indicated earlier, sales are a tiny part of what OSG does. I lack the stock to offer many pre-done consoles. Right now all I have is pre-done Xboxes right now. I can aslo supply pre-done Genesis systems.

 

That=S-video things doesn't sound right to me either. What it does sound like to me, is a PR guy commenting on technical issues. PR guys know PR, but they don't usually know video encoders, luma, chroma, and op-amp circuits. Does that mean it's ok to spread incorrect info? No. It's no different when I ask the guy at Best Buy if that e-machine computer has proprietary parts (it does) and he tells me, No it doesn't, when he has no idea what the question means.

[Teknik_SE-R]

OMNE:

 

Although my opinion is well expressed in that last post, my wording might have come out more harsh thqn intended. I hope you can sense the sarcasm in the extreme parts of it. I respect everyone's opinion regardless of it agrees mine. I apologize and I'm sory if I offended you. Regardless of how one might interpret that last post, I in no way meant to label you, and in my limited time on this forum, I have seen no indication of a lack of community. Simply many people voicing their opinions, exactly what it was meant for.

 

If you want to see some hardcore ripping, go over to the digital press' thread on this same subject and read how those guys ripped JAG a new one. Now THERE was some blatant and unfounded attacks on their own members.

 

with that out of the way....

 

I do like the ford analogy, but if it is truly going to be anlaogous to the issue we are talking about here, I would say it would be like ford stating that the new stang would perform better than anything in its class and will revolutionize the inexpensive sportscar market, and then deliver a V6 "girl-stang". Now that would be an accurate analogy

 

and WE (the "hardcore" gamers) might not be large enough to create a large revenue, but are the group responsible for consistent support of many small companies. I am sure you can understand this, why else would you provide the unique services and products that you do? the profit you make off of these unique things cannot be as high as selling copies of, say, GTA, to the masses.

[omne]

Indeed no.

 

I earn a living running OSG because I service EVERYONE. If I had to earn a living off of hardcore collectors only, I would lose a lot of weight.

 

However, servicing their needs, and game stores needs, and casual PS2 gamers needs, Rento To Own chains needs... you get the picture.

 

No offense taken.

[Jagasian]

Indeed no. 

 

I earn a living running OSG because I service EVERYONE. If I had to earn a living off of hardcore collectors only, I would lose a lot of weight. 

 

However, servicing their needs, and game stores needs, and casual PS2 gamers needs, Rento To Own chains needs... you get the picture.

 

No offense taken. 

960351[/snapback]

 

If you start selling AV version 2 pre-modded official toploaders, you will have a big fan and customer. It would be nice to have an accurate, compatible, reliable, and affordable NES system to recommend to people. The AV Famicom is great, but the need for a cart adapter and the high price of the system in the Western world, turns people away. If you could sell pre-modded official toploaders for under $100 (USA), that would fit the bill for many, many people. If Digitpress ever gets back up, search for my old posts. I was a big fan of Messiah's NEX, until I started to notice some... questionable things, which once I started asking about for clarification, I was either ignored, attacked, or given the run around.

 

I, as many other NES fans, still dream of the perfect NES system, and eagerly await the day that I can buy one. It isn't hear yet. Maybe it will be the FPGA NES, or maybe it will be something else. Even if Messiah is the one to make it, I'll buy it. I will buy more than one, actually. One to play, one to keep mint in box, and the other to keep mint in box and sell later on down the road

[omne]

Find me a good source of sub $60 Top loader sets for source material, and we may be on to something.

[JB]

Find me a good source of sub $60 Top loader sets for source material, and we may be on to something. 

960465[/snapback]

Hmmm... bootleg top-loaders... why hasn't anyone done this yet?

[Ferris]

Wow. There really is no pleasing you people. I hope you realize that you sound like a bunch of spoiled brats bitching to your moms about how your ice cream cone isn’t the right flavor of vanilla.

 

Generation NEX is a great little system for what it is. $60 isn’t much at all when you compare it to what you get. Yeah you cant play CVIII on it, but so what. Break out the toaster when you want to play those titles. For everyday game play, the NEX works just fine. I for one don't want some dankass old toaster that's been sitting in some musky basement for 20 years sitting on top of my TV when I can have something new that takes the original design to new heights. It's not perfect, but it will do.

 

Criticize legitimately if you must, but the whining though has to go.

[Great Hierophant]

Generation NEX is a great little system for what it is. $60 isn’t much at all when you compare it to what you get. Yeah you cant play CVIII on it, but so what. Break out the toaster when you want to play those titles. For everyday game play, the NEX works just fine. I for one don't want some dankass old toaster that's been sitting in some musky basement for 20 years sitting on top of my TV when I can have something new that takes the original design to new heights. It's not perfect, but it will do.

 

For $60 I would expect nothing less than perfection when I could buy a PSOne for $50 and not worry about game compatibility. Also, if I paid that amount, I wouldn't expect to need a toaster anymore. You can't play CVIII, but that is not the only game. I hear discouraging reports of other games like River City Ransom. If you prefer the design of some cheap knockoff to the real McCoy, that is your prerogative but you are probably in the minority. Far from taking the design to new heights, all it offers are some improvements based on convenience. What Messiah should have done was to nix the Famicom slot and the built-in wireless (offer them as external options for those who request them) and concentrate on perfecting the system's hardware. They should also have properly adjusted their controller ports and cartridge connector to fit the NES peripherals and cartridges better.

[n8littlefield]

I agree - I think they should have at least nix'd the Famicom support. The built-in wireless is a nice idea, but when you don't include a wireless controller, it's really not a huge selling point. If they had spent less time and money on the instruction manual and packaging, and actually paid attn to the outsourcing of their NOAC, I would probably be playing one right now.

 

Honestly, I think most of the complaints are legit. My Yobo is more compatible, has the dual mono output (in the form of a 3 dollar Radio Shack adaptor I bought), and cost 1/2 of the price of a NEX. And truthfully, when people see the Yobo, they always comment on how neat the small design is.

[Flojomojo]

I don't really care about Famicom support (don't have any Japanese games for this system), but the NEX's built-in wireless support is pretty neat. I would have happily paid $60 for a clone that was bundled with a decent wireless controller. I guess I could put Messiah's RF controllers on the Yobo, but it would be a whole lot more elegant to have the receivers on the deck. Oh well ...

[GrizzLee]

After all this negativity, I still like my Gen X. I am not a serious Nintendo collector or player. The remote controllers like the sytem itself is very attractive and functional. There are but a handful of games I like to play on the sytem. I really like the design and the fact that it can accept all those Famicon carts that seem to fill up the local thrifts here in Seattle. Especailly those orange ones from those other cheap NES clones (WonderJoy III or something like that). It plays my Mario games fine, along with the multi-cart games, Pinbot, Master Blaster, DK classics, RC Pro Am, Contra, Arkanoid, Space Invaders, etc...

 

I can see parallels with the complaints though as they are similar to the Flashback I & II complaints. Purists are always going to complain to some degree. As far as truth in advertising goes.... lets see how compatible the XBOX really is, lets see how compatible the PS3 is. There is always those that have the one game that doesn't work. As far as price goes, Messiah has done a great job meeting a price point. It is hard to compete with some of the other Taiwan based pirates and the 35 cents an hour labor rates.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

-Lee