deathtrappomegranate Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 However, NTSC televisions are notorious for color issues, which is why they have a tint control, so it can make a difference how you have the tint control set. NTSC="Never The Same Color" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D At last..... that was.... a little hole in the 130xe back adjust color levels in the screen. Wonderfull system!!!! ..... even we can set brilliant and solid color like computer with only 16 colors. After this little scare of bad colors... I can reinitialize my works with sio2pc.... thanks to all. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The only way to do it is with the machine on. Just be sure to run something like the 256 color program above, and remember the initial setting in case you can't get one you like. From what I've read, the trimmer just sets the delay for the color signal, which would make the colors just rotate around the colorspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Your entire problem here is not the XE or XL, it is the fact that you are still using the pitiful RF output. Get yourself a monitor cable and hook it up via composite to a newer TV, or composite monitor (like Commodore) or better yet, hook it up via S-video( Atari Chroma/lumina 2 RCA), you just have to convert the chroma and lumina RCA jacks on the monitor cable to S-video jack. The picture of the 130XE is far superior to an unmodified XL in composite or S-video, but especially S-video(though XL's can be modified to be better than the XE's output.) The RF modulators in Atari computers did seem to get worse with the newer models, but this is the reverse with composite and S-video output which dramatically improved in the XE line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 However, NTSC televisions are notorious for color issues, which is why they have a tint control, so it can make a difference how you have the tint control set. NTSC="Never The Same Color" 956899[/snapback] This may have been true 20 or 30 years ago, but modern NTSC TV's are very sharp and very good and stable color. Easily twice as sharp, if not more, as those 3 decades ago, and most modern NTSC TV's go beyond the traditional 640x480 resolution too, as do modern TV shows and recordings. If you ever watch TV land channel on cable, you will quickly notice that the recording resolution of the old shows from yesteryear are much lower as well, this dual effect of 30 year old TV's and 30 year old recording standards is what made NTSC TV of yesteryear look so inferior to PAL of the day. This margin in NTSC vs. PAL color is now minute or non-existant today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaGtGruff Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 However, NTSC televisions are notorious for color issues, which is why they have a tint control, so it can make a difference how you have the tint control set. NTSC="Never The Same Color" 956899[/snapback] This may have been true 20 or 30 years ago, but modern NTSC TV's are very sharp and very good and stable color. Easily twice as sharp, if not more, as those 3 decades ago, and most modern NTSC TV's go beyond the traditional 640x480 resolution too, as do modern TV shows and recordings. If you ever watch TV land channel on cable, you will quickly notice that the recording resolution of the old shows from yesteryear are much lower as well, this dual effect of 30 year old TV's and 30 year old recording standards is what made NTSC TV of yesteryear look so inferior to PAL of the day. This margin in NTSC vs. PAL color is now minute or non-existant today. 957031[/snapback] Actually, modern NTSC uses a different colorspace than older NTSC, from what I've read. The older NTSC colorspace was YIV, now it's YUV like PAL, so it would seem to make sense that the margin between them is much less today. But the way I understand it, the problem with NTSC color instability is (or was?) due to the way the frequencies or signals were combined. Of course, that's probably been improved on, too (one would hope). Michael Rideout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Is the PAL 800 palette the same as the PAL 2600 palette? AFAIK, yes or at least very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The fact is emulator has different colors than real machine. On emulator is color descibed with RGB components (from table) while real Atari has CHROMA/LUMA signals. I think it is very big difference between these color spaces so it is not possible to make emulator with the same colors as original. TV displays colors in RGB, naturally. The problem is that colors differ between: PAL/NTSC Atari models and even units hue adjustment in Atari TV models monitors (especially CRT/LCD), brightness/contrast/saturation settings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Looks like the emulator palettes are based on a PAL palette The single reason for this is that the current Atari800 default, jakub.act was grabbed from PAL machine, just like the previous one, real.act. If you agree here for a "correct" NTSC palette, I can upload it to the Atari800 emulator repository. Not necessarily one - there may be several NTSC palettes to choose from. *.act are plain 768-byte RGB palettes, supported by e.g. Photoshop, so you should have no problem with creating *.act from a picture where Atari colors are shown in order (dark on the left, light on the right). You can then load this *.act file into Atari800 and see how it looks in different programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Most modern TVs will do PAL or NTSC, thanks to digital electronics. PAL is superior in the vertical resolution area. I've set my TV-out to NTSC and it just looks plain inferior on a TV. But, NTSC has a slight advantage by having 60 Hz refresh, although on most TVs you can't tell the difference. PAL60 is an unofficial mode, supported by some TVs and graphics hardware, it combines the refresh of NTSC with the resolution of PAL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 (edited) Most modern TVs will do PAL or NTSC, thanks to digital electronics. PAL is superior in the vertical resolution area. I've set my TV-out to NTSC and it just looks plain inferior on a TV. But, NTSC has a slight advantage by having 60 Hz refresh, although on most TVs you can't tell the difference. PAL60 is an unofficial mode, supported by some TVs and graphics hardware, it combines the refresh of NTSC with the resolution of PAL. 957166[/snapback] I would imagine that your inferior NTSC output is due more to converting a PAL broadcast to NTSC, and the electronics automatically convert the PAL image down to the original "standard" 640x480. If you are whatching a modern NTSC broadcast on a modern television, it will be higher resolution than 640. Even in the vertical resoution area, modern TV's are basically the same whether displaying a PAL or NTSC image, obviously, first of all, Standard-def TV's today, sold around the world, have a resolution superior to both NTSC and PAL, and most modern broadcasts and recordings are also higher than both traditional PAL/NTSC vertical resolutions, even when broadcast in modern NTSC, it's broadcast at a higher resolution than the NTSC "standard" of 640x480. If you use an older TV or monitor, much more of the picture is cut-off compared to the same input on a modern TV. So, even vertical resolution is, in actual application, between PAL&NTSC is much closer today. The difference between the two have nearly complete closed in overall quality, and is now becoming completly obsolete in argument, with the advent of ED/HDTV (which IIRC, generally runs a 100hz refresh anyway, regardless of region). What you say about vertical resolution is only of relevence if the specific monitor or TV is 15-20 or more years old, and in many cases, the old monitors were region-free as far as PAL/NTSC HZ and resolution (like the Commodore 1084) and can display PAL and modern NTSC images at full vertical resolution anyway, becuase they were designed to display the higher PAL resolution from the beginning. Edited October 31, 2005 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageX Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 OK I'm seeing a lot of misinformation here, hopefully I can clear things up a little. PAL and NTSC both have a line frequency of roughly 15KHz. An NTSC signal has 30 frames per second (60 fields or half-frames) with 525 lines per frame. PAL trades some refresh rate for increased vertical resolution, ending up with 25 frames (50 fields) and 625 lines per frame. Some lines are not displayed because of the time needed for vertical retrace so the maximum vertical resolution is really 480 for NTSC and 576 for PAL (both interlaced). Some TVs (mostly older models which don't have an adjustment or the adjustment is not accessible without opening the chassis) do not display the edges, so the screen will have a somewhat lower resolution, maybe 10% less on a TV made within the last 25 years. Any TV or monitor that can accurately be called "NTSC" or "PAL" needs to conform to these timings. This means that the vertical resolution is fixed, it has never changed. The effective horizontal resolution is dependant on the quality/type of the signal (broadcast, composite, s-video, RGB) as well as the capability of the display. NTSC broadcasts are limited to 4MHz of bandwidth for video. S-video has separate luminance and color signals (the NTSC color space is referred to as YIQ). The horizontal resolution of the luminance component can be theorettically as high as the resolution of the TV. The NTSC color signal is a 3.58MHz carrier which contains hue (the phase!) and saturation (the amplitude) information. This is still somewhat limitted and problematic. Composite video has both signals combined into one which introduces some distortion caused by interference between the two. Lastly, the horizontal resolution of an RGB signal is limitted only by the display (vertical resolution is still the same, of course, if we are using NTSC or PAL timings). Laserdiscs (which are analog) have a bandwidth of 8MHz. DVDs are encoded using YUV colorspace and a resolution of 720x480 or 720x576 (but only the Y component is sampled for all 720 pixels, color components are sampled at half the rate). I have heard that the output of many DVD players is limitted to 10MHz of bandwidth though. The only way to increase the refresh rate or vertical resolution beyond NTSC/PAL limitations is to go with HDTV, VGA/SVGA, or an arcade monitor (some of which can sync to 16.5 or 24KHz). As for which is better, I vote for NTSC simply because that is what Japan uses and that is where most of my favorite games come from 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 The "official" DVD specifications allow for a maximum bitrate of 9800 Mbps for video + whatever the audio requires (max=320 kbps in AC3?), which equates to around 10 Megabits/second. I've authored DVDs with a much higher rate which play fine in my STB, but older players might have trouble with them. Thanks for the info, Damagex. The major reason for better color representation from PAL is in the name "Phase Alternating Line". PAL chroma information is phase inverted on each alternating line, and a delay circuit is used to feed the information back so that two signals are available. The signals are then averaged to create the outputted color. For that reason, no PAL TV has, or requires a manual hue control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageX Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 PAL chroma information is phase inverted on each alternating line, and a delay circuit is used to feed the information back so that two signals are available. The signals are then averaged to create the outputted color. I didn't know how PAL color worked but I think I understand your explanation. NTSC can also have the phase inverted (227.5 color clocks per line) but I guess no advantage is taken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitbob Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 On 10/30/2005 at 10:38 AM, SeaGtGruff said: Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures. 10 REM * DISPLAY ALL 256 COLORS 11 GRAPHICS 9:FOR V=0 TO 15:COLOR V 12 FOR N=0 TO 4:PLOT 5*V+N,0 13 DRAWTO 5*V+N,191:NEXT N:NEXT V 14 D=256*PEEK(561)+PEEK(560) 15 FOR N=1 TO 16:READ V:POKE D+V,143 16 NEXT N:FOR N=0 TO 25:READ V 17 POKE 1664+N,V:NEXT N:POKE 512,139 18 POKE 513,6:POKE 546,128:POKE 547,6 19 POKE 53248,40:POKE 53249,208 20 POKE 53261,255:POKE 53262,255 21 POKE 53266,0:POKE 53267,0 22 POKE 54286,192 23 GOTO 23 24 DATA 16,28,40,52,64,76,88,102,114 25 DATA 126,138,150,162,174,186,198 26 DATA 8,72,169,0,133,203,104,40,76 27 DATA 95,228,8,72,165,203,24,105,16 28 DATA 141,26,208,133,203,104,40,64 Michael Rideout I know this thread is 14years old lol, this programme just produces gray lines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 hours ago, 8bitbob said: I know this thread is 14years old lol, this programme just produces gray lines! Hell of a necro-bump! Works fine here (how are you running it)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitbob Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) On 10/30/2005 at 10:38 AM, SeaGtGruff said: Here's my short program to display all 256 colors at once on the Atari. Since right now I can't connect my real Atari, I'd love for people to use this on real Ataris and do screen captureS (NTSC, PAL, and SECAM), then post the screen captures. 10 REM * DISPLAY ALL 256 COLORS 11 GRAPHICS 9:FOR V=0 TO 15:COLOR V 12 FOR N=0 TO 4:PLOT 5*V+N,0 13 DRAWTO 5*V+N,191:NEXT N:NEXT V 14 D=256*PEEK(561)+PEEK(560) 15 FOR N=1 TO 16:READ V:POKE D+V,143 16 NEXT N:FOR N=0 TO 25:READ V 17 POKE 1664+N,V:NEXT N:POKE 512,139 18 POKE 513,6:POKE 546,128:POKE 547,6 19 POKE 53248,40:POKE 53249,208 20 POKE 53261,255:POKE 53262,255 21 POKE 53266,0:POKE 53267,0 22 POKE 54286,192 23 GOTO 23 24 DATA 16,28,40,52,64,76,88,102,114 25 DATA 126,138,150,162,174,186,198 26 DATA 8,72,169,0,133,203,104,40,76 27 DATA 95,228,8,72,165,203,24,105,16 28 DATA 141,26,208,133,203,104,40,64 Michael Rideout Edited July 13, 2019 by 8bitbob duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitbob Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Stephen said: Hell of a necro-bump! Works fine here (how are you running it)? XE130 PAL, its sometimes has garbled letters appear but not always?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 My guess is a typo somewhere...time to double check those POKE and Data statements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitbob Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Gunstar said: My guess is a typo somewhere...time to double check those POKE and Data statements... I did double check, but i'll type it in afresh and see. Thanks for all the replies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariNerd Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I'm not certain, but I think I remember reading that the NTSC specification had changed slightly, pretty soon after the original A8s came out, to the more standardized (well, the new standard, anyways), one it is now. Meaning those greenish browns might be a side-effect of this. Not certain if adjusting the pot on the bottom can correct for all of this, when using the old Ataris on modern sets/monitors with composite/RF. S-video is its own thing? Might be a partial reason why some favor the older CRTs, from the 70s and before, besides being CRTs with all those nice residual effects and, of course, all of that faux wood-grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 On 7/13/2019 at 1:33 PM, 8bitbob said: I know this thread is 14years old lol, this programme just produces gray lines! 23 hours ago, 8bitbob said: XE130 PAL, its sometimes has garbled letters appear but not always?? Well, you have one of the later XE PAL machines (made in China) with defect / buggy GTIA, that's all. Think several ten thousand of these XE machines with defective / buggy GTIA are out there. So, it does not matter if you made a typo in the Basic program or not, your GTIA will not be able to display the picture correctly. You have two options now: Replace your defective GTIA with a good one -or- add some small electronics to correct the bug. Think schematics for these small electronics were posted here in AA forum several years ago. Afaik, in the US dropcheck (still?) sells the small GTIA-fixer boards, if you are from Germany, maybe tf_hh has some left and in Poland Simius sells these boards. If you prefer to replace the bad GTIA with a good one, you may ask BEST electronics if he has some left or take a look at ebay auctions (there was/is a british vendor selling them afair)... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8bitbob Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Sussed it, I changed line 23 from goto 23 to goto 18 I now have glorious colour thanks guys 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I know this might be coming out of left field, but something to keep in mind is that the voltage coming out of the Atari PSU can have slight variations between different ones, and that too will affect the color trim pot setting. So once you have the color setting correct, be sure to always use the same PSU with that computer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) and make sure the Atari has been running for 15 minutes before fine tuning color with the potentiometer. Edited July 22, 2019 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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