Retrocon: NES Clone for just $15 (USD)

[Jagasian]

NESWorld has an update claiming that the NEX is a "huge flop", and then they go on to describe a new NES clone that costs $15 new. It is also the smallest NES clone to date:

http://www.nesworld.com/

 

That beats the typical price of around $30 for a complete refurbished toaster NES and it also beats the average price for a Yobo/Neofami which is also roughly $30. The NEX is $60. Of course, all except the toaster use the a crappy NES-on-a-chip (NOAC) inside, so you'll never want to pay very much for a clone. A refurbished toaster is still the ideal choice for playing NES games.

 

This Retrocon has one obvious disadvantage compared to the Yobo, NEX, and NES: it uses Famiclone pirate controller ports, as opposed to NES controller ports. Hence you will have to make an adapter to use original NES peripherials with the Retrocon. However, if you want want a system for playing the Mario Bros games, the Retrocon is an option.

 

The cheapest option, if you are willing to get your hands dirty, is to buy a $10 used toaster NES off of Ebay and refurbish it yourself with supplies you already have lying around your home.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Jagasian

[n8littlefield]

I noticed LikSang has it for $25. I still think the Yobo is the best clone, thanks to the price and the real NES ports, but this looks great for making portable NES's.

[Flojomojo]

It sure is cute. I'd get one if I didn't have a Yobo and about 20 other ways to play NES games already.

 

[Jagasian]

I just wish there was a NES version of the Pocket Fami, that is, a Pocket NES. It would be like the Pocket Fami except that it would have a NES cart port and two NES controller ports. The great thing is that it would double as a portable and a TV console gaming system. Currently the Pocket Fami sucks for NES games because with an adapter, the NES cart sticks really far out and is easily knocked, causing the game to reset/crash.

 

In fact, there has yet to be a mass produced portable NES. If such a thing was sold for $60 and had the compatibility of a Yobo, it would be a very popular item. Sure when playing on a TV, a toaster would be better, but when playing on the go, it would be the best option.

[Flojomojo]

You don't want an NES cartridge port on a portable. There's no good reason for those carts being as physically large as they are. And why the fascination with TV-out on a portable? Surely the Yobo is small enough for your TV-plugging needs?

 

http://www.pocketnes.org/ has existed for years now, it's free, and it works beautifully, better than Nintendo's NES to GBA emulations.

[Jagasian]

Actually there are NES carts that fill up the entire inside of the plastic shell, so there is a reason for that size: Famicom carts varied in size and Nintendo decided to have the same cart size no matter what the game was. Not that bad of an idea actually. I am also aware of pocketnes, and I have two GBASPs (one frontlit and the other backlit) and a flash cart. A NOAC based clone would have better game compatibility and accuracy than PocketNES.

 

TV-out on portable Famiclones has pretty much always been there. It is just another perk. Play on the go, and when you are at home you can play on a big screen. I wish the GBA had that feature by default, as I don't care to buy a Gamecube and a GB Player. Then again, I can emulate the GBA on my Xbox, but the emulation isn't as accurate as I would like. Accuracy is extremely important, and if accuracy is worse than a NOAC, I'd rather not even bother.

[goatdan]

To me, this is proof that anything that anyone can write up anything, put it up on the web and make it look official.

 

In the blurb that they wrote, they spelt Messiah wrong as well as called their system the NESX when they say that it was a "huge flop." Why would anyone believe a news article from a site where two easy to find facts are dead wrong and could've been researched in two minutes?

 

The Retrocon looks nice, but I would want to hear about it from someone else before I would even think about getting such a thing.

[Flojomojo]

To me, this is proof that anything that anyone can write up anything, put it up on the web and make it look official.

1006595[/snapback]

It's just one website's opinion, ya know. Just because it's in print doesn't give it any more value than any other Fair and Balanced news source.

 

Lik-Sang is selling a European version for $25 here. You could probably run that one if you bring your own 120v power adapter. Shipping from HK will add to the cost though; might as well stick with Yobo or Ebay at those prices.

[goatdan]

To me, this is proof that anything that anyone can write up anything, put it up on the web and make it look official.

1006595[/snapback]

It's just one website's opinion, ya know. Just because it's in print doesn't give it any more value than any other Fair and Balanced news source.

 

Lik-Sang is selling a European version for $25 here. You could probably run that one if you bring your own 120v power adapter. Shipping from HK will add to the cost though; might as well stick with Yobo or Ebay at those prices.

1006635[/snapback]

 

While I agree with that, a web site saying that (and I quote) "While Messias had a huge flop with the expensive NESX console," is a site that I will automatically write off as not fact-checking. The pictures look interesting, but I'm not going to take their opinions on anything with any value. I do the same thing with reviews of games. If someone says that, "Gran Theft Automobile is a horrible game because all that it consists of is raping hookers" I'm not going to trust anything they say. If they spell it right and explain the reasons they don't like the game or system (or whatever), that's fine.

[Lacan]

Its cute and looks like a good gift and a better value then Generation Nex.

[JagFan422]

this may be a dumb question, does Nintendo make money from these clones? I don't understand how they are OK with the clones with their stand on emulation and stuff, doesn't make sense they'd be ok with other companies ripping off the hardware.

[goatdan]

this may be a dumb question, does Nintendo make money from these clones? I don't understand how they are OK with the clones with their stand on emulation and stuff, doesn't make sense they'd be ok with other companies ripping off the hardware.

1007280[/snapback]

 

Nintendo's patent on the NES hardware has expired, so they are legal. It is not legal however to copy their cartridge format, thus their problem with homebrews.

[Lacan]

Couldn't they use a altered cartridge format like Tengen/Atari did? Or in a different look or shape but still fit in the NES or clone?

[JB]

Couldn't they use a altered cartridge format like Tengen/Atari did? Or in a different look or shape but still fit in the NES or clone?

1007563[/snapback]

They can and do use alternative cart shells. Usually some variant of the FamiCom cartridge.

 

Nintendo's real problem is that they keep stealing NES games and sticking them in their billion-in-one carts. That's why there's less clones around than there used to be(I didn't see a single mall kiosk last Christmas. ).

Edited January 27, 2006 by JB

[Bruce Tomlin]

Nintendo's patent on the NES hardware has expired, so they are legal.  It is not legal however to copy their cartridge format, thus their problem with homebrews.

Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? Could you elaborate on what you mean by "cartridge format"?

 

The only things here that can be "not legal" are:

 

1) patent violations

2) trademark violations

3) copyright violations

 

The patents are basically all expired, with the possible exception of some of the later MMC mappers. There's no real reason (other than people who do hacks, and they have other things to worry about) to have to use any of the more complicated mappers. While rolling your own mapper will probably annoy people using emulators until it gets included in their favorite emulator, that doesn't affect people using the real hardware.

 

Trademarks? Again, there's no reason why a homebrew would have to use an existing trademark. Okay, so there's the Nintendo logo on the cart shells that a homebrewer would want to re-use, but that ought to be okay since it was valid at the time of first sale, as long as the game itself makes no representations as being from or approved by Nintendo.

 

That leaves copyrights. Hacks would have this problem, and in fact, those billion-in-one carts are mostly full of hacks, which isn't enough difference from the original to stop Nintendo from suing the mall kiosks into the ground.

 

Perhaps you were talking about the CIC/10NES chip, which was in fact a copyright issue when Tengen copied it, as it's got data inside it, and a patent issue too, since they got the info from the patent application. All I can say is: you do realize there are millions of those chips around, legally made, inside of most NES cartridges, just waiting to be desoldered and put on a homebrew circuit board? (for those who want to talk about epoxy blob cartridges, is the CIC chip a blob too? I'm not talking about reusing the cartridge board here, and I'm not convinced that epoxy blob games are all that common anyhow)

 

There is a bit of a problem in that Nintendo used a wierd spacing for the NES cartridge pins, which will make the board design a little more complicated, but it's certainly not illegal to make your own cartidge boards. I would suspect that the current need to re-use circuit boards is more of a problem for NES homebrews right now than anything else.

 

So again, what the hell are you talking about? Is this just something else out of your ass like "only oval button Saturns can be modded"? If I took apart a bunch of common NES carts, desoldered their CIC chips, put them on my own circuit board, and put an entirely original game on the board with it, what could Nintendo or anyone do about it?

[goatdan]

So again, what the hell are you talking about?  Is this just something else out of your ass like "only oval button Saturns can be modded"?  If I took apart a bunch of common NES carts, desoldered their CIC chips, put them on my own circuit board, and put an entirely original game on the board with it, what could Nintendo or anyone do about it?

1007919[/snapback]

 

Wow, holy crap. Calm down.

 

First off, to answer your "talking out of your ass" concern about the Saturn, I was under the impression that the case was that you could only mod the first generation. You in that thread stated that was incorrect, and I believe you.

 

What I meant by that was about the CIC/10NES chip. While there are tons of them around in all of the cartridges released, making a new cartridge with this properitary chip -- which I do believe has not expired yet -- isn't legal. The way that the DMCA covers "Circumvention of Technological Protection Measures" means that if a person were to use the same chip without Nintendo's permission (if it is under patent rights still, as I do believe it is), that is not legal. The exceptions that the DMCA make about it makes no mention of reusing parts.

 

While it is legal to use something that you have purchased in a way that you want too -- for instance, modding your own console -- it is not legal under the a strict interpertation to mod your console and then sell it, even if the content that is included on it is all legal stuff. By that interpertation, taking a Nintendo cartridge, desoldering and resoldering the CIC/10NES chip onto a new cartridge with new data on it would still make using the CIC/10NES chip an unauthorized use of properitary parts from Nintendo, and therefore you couldn't do it.

 

Copying the chips from a third party cartridge would probably be legal under the DMCA, although those chips would probably be ruled illegal by the DMCA now, as they fall directly under the Circumvention portion mentioned before.

 

The final part, and something that I know firsthand is that you do not need to _prove_ that your rights were infringed under the DMCA to shut down a company. You can state that they were infringed and until you can prove otherwise, you have to stop distribution. A smaller place could not face Nintendo in court just due to legal matters.

 

As to why most of the NES clones are still illegal is because of just what you mentioned -- on top of all of the aspects above working against new NES software, they are using hacked versions of software that Nintendo released, which means that they are obviously against the rules.

 

So that's what I meant. I hope that this will help explain what I meant. By the way, if you're interested in checking out a summary of the DMCA to see exactly where I'm getting this from, you can check it out a "summary" of it (only 18 pages long) here:

 

http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

 

I've gone through a lot of legal things because of that strange law over the last few years, and I base a lot of my thinking on it. If I'm wrong, I'd love it as I'd love there to be some new NES games released legally via homebrew or independent developers. But as far as I know, the DMCA / Nintendo will stop it.

[Mark III]

 

Good god I assume that's just a promo picture and the controller cords aren't really 6 inches long. If not you can forget me ever playing 2 player on that, little too close quarters for my taste.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Mark III

[Jagasian]

NES World updated their front page again, with another comment regarding the NEX and yet another NOAC based clone, the $15 Retrocon mentioned above. They also comment on the fact that some pro-NEX crusaders have been sending him emails defending the NEX. Hey, don't look at me, I agree that the NEX was a flop . Why hype up what is nothing more than yet another NOAC based clone? Until then, here is the latest NES World update quoted below:

 

RETROCON IN THE HOUSE

7 FEBRUARY 2006 - 23:20 CET

The RetroCon I wrote about back in January now sits in my desk. I therefore decided to make a little info page about it. You can check it out here.

 

Friendly greetings to the people at AtariAge, defending Messiah's Generation NEX console, which I accidently called NEX. They obviously didn't feel that it flopped as much as I did... well that's your oppinion, I have mine

[JB]

What I meant by that was about the CIC/10NES chip.  While there are tons of them around in all of the cartridges released, making a new cartridge with this properitary chip -- which I do believe has not expired yet -- isn't legal. 

The patent on the 10NES HAS expired. I don't THINK there's any copyrightable code in it, though I could be wrong.

 

 

 

As to why most of the NES clones are still illegal is because of just what you mentioned -- on top of all of the aspects above working against new NES software, they are using hacked versions of software that Nintendo released, which means that they are obviously against the rules.

The pirated software is actually the only problem. All the patents have expired, and I don't think not including a 10NES in your deck would be "circumventing a copy protection measure."

[Flojomojo]

NES World updated their front page again, with another comment regarding the NEX and yet another NOAC based clone, the $15 Retrocon mentioned above.  They also comment on the fact that some pro-NEX crusaders have been sending him emails defending the NEX.  Hey, don't look at me, I agree that the NEX was a flop .  Why hype up what is nothing more than yet another NOAC based clone?  Until then, here is the latest NES World update quoted below:

 

RETROCON IN THE HOUSE

7 FEBRUARY 2006 - 23:20 CET

The RetroCon I wrote about back in January now sits in my desk. I therefore decided to make a little info page about it. You can check it out here.

 

Friendly greetings to the people at AtariAge, defending Messiah's Generation NEX console, which I accidently called NEX. They obviously didn't feel that it flopped as much as I did... well that's your oppinion, I have mine

1014949[/snapback]

I think it's cute. NESworld is a fan site, and they are indeed entitled to their "oppinion."

 

I thought I'd pick one up since they're small, cute, and cheap -- and come in a sharp blue color, too. I went to the trouble of registering at their site.

 

Problem: the cheapest shipping option from Hong Kong is $15, which raises the price to more than that of a domestically-purchased Yobo, and with none of the controller compatibility of that unit.

 

Delivery Country:United States

Delivery Charge List

Air Mail:    USD15.20

EMS:    USD20.80

UPS/FEDEX/DHL:    USD 25.50

 

Shipping via AIRMAIL (Bubble Pack):

Recommended for small parcel which not over 500g. Airmail shipments can take around 1-2 weeks to major destinations. Airmail shipment cannot be tracked online. 

 

Shipping via EMS:

Courier shipping service ( wholly owned by HK post office ) , usually takes around 5 to 8 days to major destinations. Shipments can be tracked on web-site. Recommended !   

 

Shipping via UPS or Federal Express or DHL:

Courier shipping service, usually takes around 3 - 4 days to major destinations. Shipments can be tracked online. Shipments can be tracked on UPS' web-site. or Federal Express' web-site or DHL' web-site. Excellent Services! Highly Recommended!

 

I kinda sorta want one, but can't justify paying more in shipping than the item itself costs. Maybe we could do a bulk purchase or something if anyone else is interested.

[Jagasian]

They need to start selling these things at Gamestop, I guess. Though honestly, if somebody would spend the time to make a new accurate NOAC, we could all be buying a $15 new top loader with perfect audio, video, and game compatibility. NOACs are cheap to produce because the fabrication process itself is very cheap: the chip is fabricated directly ontop of the circuit board and then a glob of epoxy is placed ontop of it. Furthermore, everything is accomplished inside that inexpensive chip. So a NOAC isn't necessarily bad, the problem is that all NOACs currently in existence are apparently based on the same buggy design.

 

If only somebody would hire Kevtris to make a new NOAC design, then we would be free from this mess. In the beginning, I honestly thought that Messiah was creating a new NOAC design. Hence the sense of betrayal.

[+HatNJ]

I got the Yobo before reading this from retronintendo

My works fine but the quality isnt the same as the original NES

 

http://retronintendo.com/modules.php?name=...=showpage&pid=4

[Jagasian]

I got the Yobo before reading this from retronintendo

My works fine but the quality isnt the same as the original NES

 

http://retronintendo.com/modules.php?name=...=showpage&pid=4

1015095[/snapback]

 

I remember a similar review of the guts of the Yobo. Thanks for posting it. The main problem with all of these unlicensed clones really has to do with the buggy NOAC. The poor built quality of cheap Chinese electronics is what makes these clones break easily, but if it doesn't break, all of the other problems it has are basically due to the NOAC.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Jagasian

[bowser724]

I don't think that article is fair on a technical level. They seem to think just because the NES guts look more complicated it's better. They don't seem to realize that the same thing can be done now, 21 years later, without all of that stuff inside. They call it cheap because it looks less complex.

[Flojomojo]

I got the Yobo before reading this from retronintendo

My works fine but the quality isnt the same as the original NES

 

http://retronintendo.com/modules.php?name=...=showpage&pid=4

1015095[/snapback]

 

I remember a similar review of the guts of the Yobo. Thanks for posting it. The main problem with all of these unlicensed clones really has to do with the buggy NOAC. The poor built quality of cheap Chinese electronics is what makes these clones break easily, but if it doesn't break, all of the other problems it has are basically due to the NOAC.

1015200[/snapback]

That article is pretty shrill. So it's a system on a chip, and cheaply manufactured? That's why the cost is low, and why anyone would bother making a 1980s system AT ALL in this century. It was manufactured China? Guess what: so are MOST TOYS, including our much-loved Atari Flashback 2, the Playstation 2, the XBOX, the XBOX 360, and according to most sources, the Nintendo Revolution. Labor costs money. If you want a Neo-Geo priced Famiclone built by hand, Kev is our guy, but for lots-o-systems at "fair" prices, they're coming from cheap-labor places.

 

Bowser is completely correct in saying that "simple" does not equal "bad." Jag is right in saying NES on a chip *could* be done well.