How does it end ? (if it does at all...)

[Red 5]

I am talking about collecting.

 

There was a post a long while back that asked in 30 years, how collectible will

our Atari stuff be ?

 

Someone mentioned 'about as cool as the old guy with his collection of 78's and black and white movies.'

 

Will this be the case? Will there be a point where this stuff no longer 'retro' and 'collectible' and simply turns to junk that nobody cares about.

 

Since video games are here to stay, will the market stay strong for the older stuff?

 

Baseball is still popular and today, card collectors young and old would die for a Mickey Mantle rookie card, even though many of us are far too young to ever have even seen him play the game.

 

In that respect, 30 years from now, will there be an 18 year old who get so excited about finding a Quadrun ?

 

Or will quadrun be one of those 78's in the cellar at the dead guy's estate sale that nobody gives a rats ass about?

[+FujiSkunk]

Will there be a point where this stuff no longer 'retro' and 'collectible' and simply turns to junk that nobody cares about.

 

I sure hope so.

 

Slightly more seriously, I don't worry about such things. I don't collect for the sake of collecting*, I collect because I like to play. I loved the 2600 back when everybody else was in love with Nintendo and declaring Atari obsolete, and I'll still love the 2600 when 2D video games are declared obsolete and the Atari name has been resold for the umpteen zillionth time.

 

* = Okay, so I do get a kick from the actual act of finding things to add to my collection, but that doesn't mean I'll be dumping it all when I hear Atari is no longer chic. I like what I like.

[+remowilliams]

Or will quadrun be one of those 78's in the cellar at the dead guy's estate sale that nobody gives a rats ass about?

1016382[/snapback]

I have a feeling that this will be the ultimate destination for most of this stuff. "The junk in that weird old guys basement down the street"

 

But luckily for me since I'm immortal due to an accident involving an irrational particle accelerator, a liquid lunch, and a pair of rubber bands - I'll be picking up everyones collections for free. Muwhahahah

[Paranoid]

Well... and there are still younger record collectors who get a bug for the older technology. I'm sure there will always be a kind of cult collection following for Atari gear. As a matter of fact, the kid I got my 5200 from was 17... I was blown away... I started to ask him and he finished my sentance for me... "I wasn't even born when this stuff was new..." He just had the old-school/retro collection buzz.

 

In a sense, I don't like that... because this is what causes the prices to go up to unreasonable levels. People who are collecting simply for the sake of collecting and don't have a personal/nostalgia attachment to the stuff. But in another sense... it keeps the hobby healthy, alive, and economically strong... which is good for the long-term prospects.

 

Additionally... there are other ways that this appeals. It is a slice of Americana, there is a historic angle to it... it represents a specific group of decades... So you'll get some crossover collecting. They fit into the "Toy Collecting" hobby... they represent a historic part of the evolution of home/consumer electronics... they represent a significant force of the 70s and 80s... both of which will reamain like the 50s and 60s, decades with a lot of sentimental value. I mean... the guys who BROUGHT us the first wave of this stuff... they WERE the 80s baby boom yuppies... or... children of the 50s and 60s. The youngest of us... we're 70s and 80s kids... and we're probably getting OUR children interested to a certain degree in this technology. I see it as the kind of thing that is sustainable for quite awhile, really.

 

I think that there are a lot of smart people who see the historic value of these things, too. They represent the genesis of an entire industry. Having an Atari 2600 that works is like having a very early automobile, or telegraph machine, or telephone... typewriter... whatever. A fundamental step in the information revolution. As modern computers develop so much extra power, we'll see better and better emulation and I think eventually machines that can develop on-the-fly emulation for any code ever written isn't unreasonable. As long as the source or compiled binary isn't LOST... eventually something will be able to run it flawlessly. But the original hardware is important too. Just like people collect old license plates, spark plugs... you know... whatever... there will always be a certain interest in these machines. They define (in part) an era in the evolution of humanity. People collect ARROWHEADS, for God's sake.

 

At the most... it'll become more and more of a fringe thing or something collected more for historic value than for actual nostalgia or gameplay... but there will always be a certain demand. As they become more and more rare, pristine units in working condition are likely to become outrageously expensive, too. At some point, the last original heavy sixer that is still working becomes a PRICELESS item on display at the Smithsonian in an environmentally controlled room.

[BassGuitari]

My concern isn't if Atari and classic gaming stuff will be "cool" or "collectible" in, say, 30 years (what difference does it make as long as you enjoy it, right?), but rather if my 60-year-old consoles and games will even be functional or usable by that time.

 

But to address the topic, it's hard to say. The physical components like consoles and cartridges will probably be considered nothing special until there's few left in existance (like that'll happen soon), unless they're in unusually good shape (much like today), but games like Pac-Man will be engrained in the popular psyche for a long, long time.

[+RandomPerson]

I agree with the attachment to the nostagia (spelled wrong of course). Some of my first memories of the toys I had when I was a kid was He-Man, The Smurfs & my Atari 2600. I never did have a 7800 as a kid but I did get into the 7800 a few years ago after finding out it was backwards compatible with the 2600 game I already owned. My collection is pretty muc complete, I pick up the odd game here and there, but they usally are just fad of the week games and I trade or sell them off when I get bored of them. As far as Atari being forgoten or not popular at least on a sub-cult level, Idon't think that will ever happen. I mean how many of us are now parents ourselves with kids old enough to get a good game session going on? I got 2 kids 1 is 13 and the other is 2. My oldest loves "new" games but also like Atari, I don't keep my atari inthe living room as my son would end up breaking it or something stupid like that but when I bring it out from my collection in my bedroom she is willing to play all our favorites just as fast as we are. Do you know why? Cause graphics be damned a good game is a good game no matter the speed or looks. She can *almost* beat me at warlords for Christ's sake..lol.. So ya it's never gonna go away, it's gonna flair up and die down over and over, but go away>? Never.

[JimmydelaKopin]

Actually, the comparison to sports card collecting is the most apt one I've heard in a long time.

 

Just like with baseball cards, the rarer ones and the really good ones have all the value, and the rest...good as coasters and not much else.

And they're still being mass-produced today, even though few people even buy them--so much so that they're heavily discounted shortly after hitting the market.

Yep, videogames are just like baseball cards...just harder to clothespin the the bike to make that cool motorcycle sound.

[Sayton]

This is hard to say. There are still people who collect for older systems, sometimes specific sometimes all. Maybe the older stuff will be much harder to find, but when it comes time, people will be collecting for our current next gen stuff, with DC and PSX as the "older' systems.

 

I also worry...will our systems still work in 30 years? Atari does has some durable stuff but I guess we'll see!

[Red 5]

Maybe I am over analyzing our little subculture here. To me, it just seems like 90% of the people here (or Atari collectors in hiding ) are in the 27 - 42 year old range.

Or basically the people who grew up on Atari.

 

It is a way to re-capture our childhood memories and play our favorite games.

 

When our generation (let's call it the Atari Generation) moves on to that great arcade in the sky, will there be people to carry the torch? My son might have some interest, as will most of our children, but enough to keep the old ball rolling?

 

I collect for mainly the enjoyment. I have the best of both worlds because I enjoy finding a rare game I don't have that sucks just as much as I enjoy playing a common game that is too fun to put down. But when it comes to the "rare" factor, in 50 years will anyone care about Quadrun, or will the nostalgia of seeing 'Old fashion Pac Man' on an Atari 2600 be the only novelty?

 

I know these are impossible questions to answer, but I just wanted to see what people think on the subject.

 

My hope is that 50 years after I am gone, someone will dig up this old post and make fun of me for thinking these games would stop being collectable.

[Paranoid]

This is hard to say. There are still people who collect for older systems, sometimes specific sometimes all. Maybe the older stuff will be much harder to find, but when it comes time, people will be collecting for our current next gen stuff, with DC and PSX as the "older' systems.

 

I also worry...will our systems still work in 30 years? Atari does has some durable stuff but I guess we'll see!

1016721[/snapback]

 

I don't think today's consoles will have the longevity that the classics have... for one reason...

 

The hardware has grown so complex that irrepairable failures are going to be more common, more quickly, with the new systems. In particular, CD and DVD drives. These fail after several years. The laser doesn't have the power to read or it the lens gets too dirty. This is already the most common failure on the XBox. You've got much more complex processors running much hotter... tons more components (an XBox is a PC... memory, hard drive, hard drive controller, I/O controller, GPU... GPU memory... just WAY more to fail).

 

Nope... at least not THIS generation of console (I hear it called 6th generation).

 

Maybe by a few generations down the road, they'll have worked out the longevity issues with today's optical media and with how complex the systems are and how hot they run. But until that happens, I don't think we'll see these systems having a huge collectors market in the future.

[shadow460]

I'd put money on the 2600 going for a buck or two in the future.

Kids of all ages can enjoy it. I've seen that. It's a game, so what it looks like doesn't matter. They wanna play the game.

 

I looked at my stack of consoles a minute ago and I wondered if one of them would be the last working 7800, N64 or PS2 sitting in that environmentally controlled room in the Smithsonian.

Then I wondered what games would be displayed with the system. Would any Apollo games be displayed? Would people know what DVD-ROM stood for? Would the curator mention that the N64 has a memory upgrade installed?

 

Out of all the systems there, I think the N64 will last the longest as it is. Of course, if the 7800 craps out, it'll likely be due to the plastic case breaking, and I'll just put it into a different enclosure.

 

I don't think these classic games will hold the value they have forever. Sure the rare ones will be worth a lot of money. Tank Command will probably increase in value until they find that warehouse, and then Tank's value will drop for a short while before going up again.

 

As for someone to carry on the collecting, well, I'm really impartial on that issue.

When I die, my collection will go to someone who can enjoy it.

[elviticus]

I think the Atari will remain a collector's item - even after those of us with nostalgic feelings for it are gone.

 

Anything that pioneers something popular is always going to be returned to. In the same way that people who really get into music often look back to the "roots" music like Blues, early Rock & Roll etc. , people into video games will always want to see the point of origin.

 

The systems in between the first (big one, at least) and the "newest thing" are more likely to go by the wayside, in my opinion.

[mos6507]

I would like to know what it takes to kill a 2600. I don't think it's very easy for one of the main chips to go bad. I could definitely see 2600s being fully operational given the availability of replacement switches and discrete components (resistors and caps) for several decades. I think most of the time when they go bad it's just one of the slider switches or the power supply.

 

The chips in the 2600 don't have a lot of gates in them, and they run pretty cool compared to modern chips. Any long-term deterioration of the individual circuit traces on the chips must take a very long time to cause problems.

 

It would be interesting to know whether the 2600 can even outlast the Flashback 2 in the battle of attrition. I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

[MegaManFan]

I'm going to *knock on wood* before I say this, but it's pretty darn amazing how durable these VCS/2600 consoles are. The only one I've ever had flake out on me is a Junior, and that was just a color spectrum shift which I was too lazy to buy a simple tool from Radio Shack to fix. Otherwise it works fine. I've been using at least one VCS in our family for over five years now with no failure of any kind. It only took 3-4 years for my original PSX to go kaput after I first plugged it in.

[+Omegamatrix]

Maybe I am over analyzing our little subculture here.  To me, it just seems like 90% of the people here (or Atari collectors in hiding  ) are in the 27 - 42 year old range.

Or basically the people who grew up on Atari.

 

It is a way to re-capture our childhood memories and play our favorite games.

 

When our generation (let's call it the Atari Generation) moves on to that great arcade in the sky, will there be people to carry the torch?  My son might have some interest, as will most of our children, but enough to keep the old ball rolling?

1016724[/snapback]

 

I can only hope there is a great arcade in the sky. When we are gone so will be most of the interest in Atari. It'll be replaced by whatever system the next generation grows up with. Sure there will still be a group of people that still have some interest in Atari. They will be the hardcore collectors or the historians, but the pool of people will greatly be reduced in numbers. As long as the spirit of gameplay lives on I'll be happy.

[sandmountainslim]

It would be interesting to know whether the 2600 can even outlast the Flashback 2 in the battle of attrition.  I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

1016773[/snapback]

It will without a doubt

[Ross PK]

I think the Atari will remain a collector's item - even after those of us with nostalgic feelings for it are gone.

 

Anything that pioneers something popular is always going to be returned to.   In the same way that people who really get into music often look back to the "roots" music like Blues, early Rock & Roll etc. , people into video games will always want to see the point of origin.

 

The systems in between the first (big one, at least) and the "newest thing" are more likely to go by the wayside, in my opinion.

1016762[/snapback]

 

I totally agree, I mean look at the Ford model T and how old it is, yet it's still in the publics psyche because it's the first car that was made.

 

So as long as video games are still going it should be the same with the 2600 since it was the first popular games console.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Ross PK

[The_Laird]

I think the Atari will remain a collector's item - even after those of us with nostalgic feelings for it are gone.

 

Anything that pioneers something popular is always going to be returned to.   In the same way that people who really get into music often look back to the "roots" music like Blues, early Rock & Roll etc. , people into video games will always want to see the point of origin.

 

The systems in between the first (big one, at least) and the "newest thing" are more likely to go by the wayside, in my opinion.

1016762[/snapback]

 

I totally agree, I mean look at the Ford model T and how old it is, yet it's still in the publics psyche because it's the first car that was made.

 

So as long as video games are still going it should be the same with the 2600 since it was the first popular games console.

1016909[/snapback]

It wasn't the first car made, in fact far from it. It was the first car to be mass produced though.

[oldgames]

Very interesting question. Nostalgia definitely plays a huge part in the current demand. Once this fades, I would expect that the Atari will still be collected by a much smaller group of people. The value of very common items or items in poor condition will probably drop to nothing (already headed that way), and the more rare items in very good condition will continue to hold or even increase their value.

 

I guess if I were looking at this as an investment, I'd only put back the really prime condition items.

 

I really just enjoy collecting and playing the games as a hobby and am able to sell enough of the duplicates I get from buying large lots to make my collection basically free, so it's also pretty affordable.

 

I think the key to making money would be to try to anticipate the next nostalgia market. Look at today's 18 years played with when they were 12. Pick up THAT stuff for next to nothing and put it back for 10 or 15 years until the 'Good Ole Days' beckon that crowd!

 

[supercat]

It wasn't the first car made, in fact far from it. It was the first car to be mass produced though.

1016910[/snapback]

 

The 2600 wasn't the first microprocessor-controlled videogame on the market, either. But it's the first one that really gained supercritical mass.

 

Strictly speaking, there can only be one "first car made", and I doubt it still exists anymore; if it does, there's one collection in the world who has it and nobody else can hope to acquire it. There were quite a number of early vehicles before the Model T, but it was the Model T that established automobiles as being something beyond a curious novelty.

 

It's also interesting to observe the popularity of the 2600 as a present-day programming platform. To be sure, there are fewer people writing games for it than for the PC or for other modern systems, but programming the 2600 gives a sense of "one-ness" with the machine, which other machines just don't offer. Given the increasing compexity of today's systems, I think the 2600 will always be unique in that regard.

[supercat]

Someone mentioned 'about as cool as the old guy with his collection of 78's and black and white movies.'

1016382[/snapback]

 

I don't own any, but I think 78's are cool. And as for old movies, those are neat though I'd find 'em much more useful if I had a projector that offered fast-forward/rewind or at minimum easy mid-reel threading (I have two auto-feed projectors that are a real pain to thread and unthread mid-reel; a friend has a projector which threads very easily and I could probably have it for the asking, but it's an ancient thing that will munch sprockets if the timing gets off; I don't think I need to spend money on yet another projector).

[Cheese007]

I don't think today's consoles will have the longevity that the classics have... for one reason...

 

The hardware has grown so complex that irrepairable failures are going to be more common, more quickly, with the new systems. In particular, CD and DVD drives. These fail after several years. The laser doesn't have the power to read or it the lens gets too dirty. This is already the most common failure on the XBox. You've got much more complex processors running much hotter... tons more components (an XBox is a PC... memory, hard drive, hard drive controller, I/O controller, GPU... GPU memory... just WAY more to fail).

 

Nope... at least not THIS generation of console (I hear it called 6th generation).

 

Maybe by a few generations down the road, they'll have worked out the longevity issues with today's optical media and with how complex the systems are and how hot they run. But until that happens, I don't think we'll see these systems having a huge collectors market in the future.

currently there are (literally) 10 dead xboxes with that problem at cgx

also i have 2 dead gamecubes with that problem

i am assuming the ps1 saturn and dreamcast suffer the same problems right?

these problems are why imo catrideges>cd

Edited February 12, 2006 by Cheese007

[Paranoid]

currently there are (literally) 10 dead xboxes with that problem at cgx

also i have 2 dead gamecubes with that problem

i am assuming the ps1 saturn and dreamcast suffer the same problems right?

these problems are why imo catrideges>cd

1017049[/snapback]

 

Well... it doesn't *have* to be this way... but I don't know if there is enough consumer demand to change this aspect of electronics. Things become obsolete before they die, in general... consoles usually are expected to have a longer shelf-life, though... Personally, I think that consumers have become complacent to the idea of "When it breaks, it is time to buy a new one". I remember Sears used to have an electronics shop where they would FIX your stuff. I don't think they do, anymore... and generally, the shop rates are more expensive than a replacement.

 

But ultimately, what it means is that SOONER rather than later... every XBox or PS2 is going to have a bad DVD drive, and if it can't be cleaned, it won't get fixed. Which means the nostaliga market for this generation isn't going to have any supply to meet the demand... Microsoft will probably get even richer in 20 years selling an XBox classic compilation that runs on your PC.

[supercat]

...and generally, the shop rates are more expensive than a replacement.

 

With some types of products like lawn mowers, there can be such a huge difference in quality between different products that it may be worth spending more to fix a quality machine than it would cost to replace it with a functionally-similar but less rugged replacement; even if the quality machine is ten years old, it may have more life left in it after the repair or maintenance than a cheaper new machine would have fresh off the assembly line.

 

There are definite advantages to both approaches to product design (design it durable vs. design it cheap), which is probably why both types of product are still on the market. If someone's need for a product is going to be shorter-lived than even a cheaply-built unit, paying more for something better offers no benefit. And the lifespan of quality products will usually be impaired more by deficient maintenance than that of cheaper products (e.g. lack of maintenance might kill a quality product in three years, versus two for a cheap one, but with proper maintenance the quality product would last twenty years versus three for the cheap one)

[Paranoid]

With some types of products like lawn mowers, there can be such a huge difference in quality between different products that it may be worth spending more to fix a quality machine than it would cost to replace it with a functionally-similar but less rugged replacement; even if the quality machine is ten years old, it may have more life left in it after the repair or maintenance than a cheaper new machine would have fresh off the assembly line.

 

There are definite advantages to both approaches to product design (design it durable vs. design it cheap), which is probably why both types of product are still on the market.  If someone's need for a product is going to be shorter-lived than even a cheaply-built unit, paying more for something better offers no benefit.  And the lifespan of quality products will usually be impaired more by deficient maintenance than that of cheaper products (e.g. lack of maintenance might kill a quality product in three years, versus two for a cheap one, but with proper maintenance the quality product would last twenty years versus three for the cheap one)

1018045[/snapback]

 

I always get in trouble with my managers for failing to grasp this kind of logic.

 

I see what you mean... It is all reasonable enough. And I suppose the proof is in the pudding, that if you adjust an Atari 2600 or 5200 for inflation they would be $600+ machines in today's market... and the fact that a XBox or PS2 goes for so much less is an example of those economics in play.

 

But really... it still comes back to that being a reason that today's consoles will never be collected as "classics" to the degree that the early boxes are. There is no modern "high quality lawn mower" of game consoles. They're all made to be disposable electronics with planned obselecence more important to their shelf-life than if they still offer compelling game play 10 years down the road.

 

But you know... I can't think that I've ever thought... "I'd like to play Doom... or Wolfenstien 3D or Quake" for nostaliga purposes. I can't see myself, in a decade, going, "I'd rather play GTA 3 than GTA 400 VR". The ports are so similar that it doesn't really tie you into an XBox, or a PS2, or a PC to experience *most* games... The last era of "unique platforms" was really the Amiga/ST/ and emerging PC VGA and Sega/NES-SuperNintendo/Turbo Grafx 16 era. Everything to that point and before it has a certain allure to me... The Commodore 64... the Atari 8 bits... I mean... Ports of Call is a game UNIQUE to the Amgia. Archon just shines on the C=64 like on no other platform. But since then... you can pretty much play whatever you want, on whatever platform you want, and have it look pretty much the same... and... there is always some NEW version of the same game mechanic coming out somewhere that buries everything before it.

 

I could be wrong...