Thoughts on Atari History...

[dollopx]

This post is just some thoughts I had on Atari and in no way are correct or represent what I actually beleive etc (just don't wanna flamed!!)

 

After the failure of such systems (come on!) as the 5200 and the 7800 (commercially spekaing), Atari Corp tried to reinvent itself with the Jaguar (big cat name) and the Lynx (also a big cat).

 

I'm the first to agree that these systems were great, but the dominance of Sega and Nintendo up until the that point in time had really sealed the fate of "New Atari". I have read articeles where so-called experts on the industry say that Atari's problem was this and that etc. I think that the only problem they had was that the damage had been done. Mismanagement (not mentioning any names > J.T) and simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time is what happened.

 

Imagine if the 7800 was released in 1984, then what? Well, NES wouldn't have looked so advanced on it's launch, and who knows, maybye the world would be a better place.

 

It pains me to read crap about Atari, sorry if my ramblings went on too long, anyway

[Albert]

I know exactly how you feel as I've been a long-time fan of Atari products. I got my start back with the 2600 like many people, but we couldn't afford to buy many games. So only when I started collecting did I get a chance to try all the games I couldn't get my grubby mitts on as a kid.

 

Several years later, I became extremely interested in computers when I had the opportunity to play around with an Apple II at school. Then a friend of mine bought a Vic-20 and I absolutely had to have a personal computer of my own. I saved up paper route money and eventually bought an Atari 800XL. I typed in just about every program I could find in Antic, ANALOG, and Compute! magazines and taught myself how to program (in BASIC and then 6502 Assembly). Later I went on to run Phantasmal Alchemy, a BBS running on a large collection of Atari 8-bit hardware -- 800XL w/256k, 1MB ICD MIO board, Atari XEP-80, ICD SpartaDOS X, ICD RealTime 8 Clock Cart, Atari Rev. C BASIC Cart (yes, three carts sticking out of the top of an Atari 800XL!), 2 Seagate ST225 20MB Drives, Adaptec MFM HD Controller, IBM PC HD Case, Commodore 1702 monitor, Magnavox 80 column monitor (Carina II BBS supported the use of two monitors at once, it was pretty damn cool), two Indus GT drives, two US Doublerized 1050 drives, and I went through several modems over time, starting with cheap 1200 baud modems and working my way up to more expensive US Robotics modems (ahh, those were the days!) It was quite a site to behold.

 

Later I got into the whole Atari ST scene. A friend and I even wrote a multi-user, multi-tasking BBS system for the Atari ST called DMS BBS. DMS stood for Digitally Mastered Software. We never sold it, but we did run a system briefly on it (you could even login from another Atari ST via the MIDI ports). Unfortunately we never really finished the software. At one point we ported it to OS/2 and then later to DOS when Microsoft dropped support for OS/2 in their compiler (*******s!) So that was the end of my involvement with Atari computers.

 

However, I was suckered into purchasing a Jaguar when they came out. I rememeber paying something along the lines of $250 or $300 (ugh!) for a Jag, only to be disappointed with the extremely sluggish pace with which games were being released. I think this killed the Jaguar more than anything, although Atari was always quite inept at marketing their products. I sure did have a blast playing Tempest 2000, though (so much so that I later bought it for the Playstation!)

 

I also purchased a Lynx when it was released (you think I would have learned my lesson!!) Fortunately a lot of great games found their way to the Lynx and I had quite a bit more fun with it than my Jaguar. At some point I sold my Lynx, but a few years ago I acquired a Lynx II system with several games for a decent price at a game store in Austin. I then picked up quite a few games on eBay, although I don't have nearly a complete library for the Lynx yet (haven't been actively collecting for it).

 

It was painful watching the slow demise of Atari over the years. In many cases they had superior hardware over other companies, but time and time again they blew opportunities to surge ahead of their competition. It got to the point where retailers were somewhat loathe to stock new Atari systems, given the company's previous track record. I haven't even mentioned many of Atari's other failures, such as the Portfolio and PC-compatible line (ha!)

 

It would be exciting to see Nolan Bushnell purchase the Atari name from Infogrames, but I'm somewhat cynical at this point that an Atari 2.0 will ever become reality. But you never know, stranger things have happened..

 

..Al

[Tempest]

I don't know how Atari would do in the modern videogame or computer market. Things have changed so much it's hard to say. Gone are the golden age of computers when they were limited to geeks who loved to program and the casual gamer who never touched the keyboard, now everone uses computers and smaller faster chips come out every other week. It's just a totally different world now.

 

I do miss the days of the huge Atari setups. I was a little young to have all that equipment but I did have an Atari 400 with the tape drive so I learned to program out of books and magazines just like everone else in that era (I still have some silly programs I wrote on tapes, I wonder if they're still good?). But whenever I would see someone who had the whole deal going on (like Albert described) it filled me with a sense of awe and wonder. I would hang around computer shops while my mom shopped (these were the 80's, things were different back then) and learn as much as I could from those older techno weenies who I looked up to. I have most of that equipment now, but setting it all up seems like a waste of time now. Would anyone still dial into a BBS that ran on an Atari at 12000 bps? I think I would if I could still find one, just for nostalgia's sake.

 

I think the 7800 would have done well in 84, but once the NES was relased in 85 you would still see the 7800 fade away. Not quite as fast as it did in real life, but the NES was superior and it would have won in the end. Maybe this extra time would have given Atari some better resources to develop a decient marketing strategy for it's next system? Who knows?

 

When I first saw the Jag advertised in magazines and even the local paper I was all excited. I thought this was Atari's big come back and the Jag would stomp it's competition into the ground, I was all ready planning to spend my savings on one. On paper the Jag's specs looked impressive, but the reviews of it's first games weren't so kind. It was a 64 bit system but it played like a 32 bit machine someone said. Still I was intersted but wary, I waited a bit to see what would happen. When I saw the lack of games for the Jag and the buzz that the new SNES getting I went that route. I still loved Atari but I could see that the Jag was going to flop (and so did most of the public).

 

One thing I never regret getting was the Lynx. I still think it's the best portable system out there. It's got great graphics, a ton of awesome games, and the price (especially now) just can't be beat. It's definetly the best thing Atari put out (too bad they didn't create it). I don't know how gameboy dominated the market, probably because of the name Nintendo, but those nasty monochrome graphics and that annoying blur you got when you moved turned me off right away.

 

one thing I never understood was why Atari kept releasing warmed over arcade games as launch titles. They always seemed to cling to those arcade hits. This is fine when you want to add bulk and depth to your library (everyone loves a classic) but then they seemed to cut corners on their new games. Most of these games came off a average at best, so you had a system with a bunch of old arcade games and some average new stuff. Thsi is not a winning formula for success. I don't know about you, but when I buy a new system I don't want to see a bunch of leftovers passed off as new games, I want to see new ideas and concepts. After those are in place then you can start adding the older stuff.

 

It's sad to see that Atari is dead, but maybe Nolan will actually come through on this Atari 2.0 idea. But would attaching the name Atari to a new company bring memories of a proud past and groundbreaking innovation, or would it just remind people of Atari's last failures? It's a double-edged sword.

 

I've rambled on enough.

 

Tempest

[chad5200]

Albert,

 

It sounds like your 8-bit BBS setup was much like mine.

 

I LOVED Carina II! What an amazing BBS program for the Atari 8-bit.

[+Random Terrain]

Tempest:

 

You said, "...maybe Nolan will actually come through on this Atari 2.0 idea. But would attaching the name Atari to a new company bring memories of a proud past and groundbreaking innovation, or would it just remind people of Atari's last failures? It's a double-edged sword."

 

If he promotes it as "The way Atari was meant to be" it might make it. If he makes it clear that there's not going to be anymore B.S. decisions made by people who could care less about games, it will work. No more making more of one game than there are systems to play them on and other nonsense.

 

"The Magic is Back at Atari." Take everything that was bad from the past and learn from it. Now combine what we've learned with a vision of a better tomorrow, and let's go!

 

 

Thanks,

 

D.A.H. from the F of i

[jahfish]

It would be exciting to see Nolan Bushnell purchase the Atari name from Infogrames, but I'm somewhat cynical at this point that an Atari 2.0 will ever become reality.  But you never know, stranger things have happened..  

 

..Al

 

that would be cool. i want to be one of the pot-smoking hippies designing the new boxes

 

[Witchfynde]

Later I went on to run Phantasmal Alchemy, a BBS running on a large collection of Atari 8-bit hardware -- 800XL w/256k, 1MB ICD MIO board, Atari XEP-80, ICD SpartaDOS X, ICD RealTime 8 Clock Cart, Atari Rev. C BASIC Cart (yes, three carts sticking out of the top of an Atari 800XL!), 2 Seagate ST225 20MB Drives, Adaptec MFM HD Controller, IBM PC HD Case, Commodore 1702 monitor, Magnavox 80 column monitor (Carina II BBS supported the use of two monitors at once, it was pretty damn cool), two Indus GT drives, two US Doublerized 1050 drives, and I went through several modems over time, starting with cheap 1200 baud modems and working my way up to more expensive US Robotics modems (ahh, those were the days!)  It was quite a site to behold.  

 

Heh, got a photo of that?

 

It was painful watching the slow demise of Atari over the years.  

 

Yeah, no kidding: I remember back in '95 or something I was talking to a guy at an Electronics Boutique store (I think it was) at a mall, about how the Sega Genesis was supposed to have been in it's last year in '94 and all, and I brought up the (still somewhat new) Jaguar, and he said "Atari screwed up again!", which I was like "don't say THAT, I've always had a special place in my heart for Atari!" But the console, at the time, was proclaimed in the media to being THE best out there (this might've been before the PS1 came out at the time, I can't remember exactly when this conversation happened), but it didn't have the best software. You don't blame the hardware for poor software!

 

It would be exciting to see Nolan Bushnell purchase the Atari name from Infogrames, but I'm somewhat cynical at this point that an Atari 2.0 will ever become reality.  But you never know, stranger things have happened..  

 

 

Yeah, look at how many times Steve Jobs has gone back and saved Apple's butt time and time again...there were times I thought Apple was dead for GOOD (not that I have anything against them, though), but he kept on saving their butt. Atari/Bushnell, take note!

[Big Player]

It's sad to look back at Atari's history and realize they only had success with the 2600. All their other products were always at least number two in their segment of the market.

 

I had a 2600 and moved on to the 800XL as I assumed everyone else who had a 2600 would do. But the C64 had Atari beat badly--so badly that Antic magazine had to organize a letter writing campaign to get Electronic Arts to release Atari 8-bit versions of their top C64 games.

 

This soured me on the ST line. Back then, I never knew someone who owned one of these computers. Even if I did, I doubt I would have bought one. At that point (late 80's) Atari just had a loser image in my mind. I spend most of my time playing games on my roommates Amiga in college.

 

I guess I never bought another Atari video game system because at their time of release, I was not looking for a new system. I still love what the company was and that in many cases their superior products were under-appreciated.

[DanBoris]

It's sad to look back at Atari's history and realize they only had success with the 2600.  All their other products were always at least number two in their segment of the market.

 

Yes, it's true that Atari never had a blockbuster system other then the 2600, but some of thier other systems did ok, even though they weren't number one, the 8-bit computer line for example.

 

And don't forget about Atari's arcade games, they had considerable success in this area, and kept coming up with inovative games well into the 80's.

 

Dan

[gavv]

the 7800 wouldn't have made much if any difference had it come out in 84 or not. The main problem was simple. Games. By then, people were getting tired of the same games again, just getting slightly closer to arcade specs. pac man, centipede, defender, asteroids. Even at its eventual launch, the 7800 had a dearth of actually interesting titles, at least interesting enough to get people to buy into the new machine (especially when they were still trying to squeeze every drop from the 2600 stone). Like another publication said (canna remember offhand), had enough effort been put into innovating on the games side for the 7800 early enough, it might have helped.

As Alan Miller at CGE stated that 'one of the problems was that there was no orderly introduction of the next generation of hardware' and 'we waited and waited, and were really excited because we kept hearing atari was spending $100 million a year in R&D...but it never came'.

Illustrating the case more, it wasn't really the system at all that made Nintendo hugely successful, it was one mold-breaking, extremely well designed game that assured it's success, SMB.

[Inky]

  Illustrating the case more, it wasn't really the system at all that made Nintendo hugely successful, it was one mold-breaking, extremely well designed game that assured it's success, SMB.

 

The Sega master system was technically superior to the NES, but what ultimately killed it was the titles available. If Phantasy Star was the pack-in, the system may have been more of a success. It's not the HW as much as the software (and promotion too..)

[Big Player]

And don't forget about Atari's arcade games, they had considerable success in this area, and kept coming up with inovative games well into the 80's.  

 

Dan

 

Thanks Dan, I did forget about Atari's arcade games. It must have been my last place showing in the Black Widow tournament at the Cinciclassic that blocked this from my mind.

 

Still love playing Black Widow though.

[BlitterBit]

Regarding the reinvention of Atari. Let's face it, it wouldn't be the same. If Atari released a modern game system, it would be your typical 3D graphics crunching box with the whole line of fighting games. Truthfully, I loathe modern games. Way too violent, and way to flippin' complex. In the early 80's we were happy with a joystick with 1 or 2 buttons. Now in order to play a game you have to study a schematic of 16 buttons, knobs and switches to find out which combination of buttion pushing gives you secret karma powers.

 

On that note.. Has anybody stepped into an arcade lately? The ones by me are now dominated by kiddie gambling games (the kind that suck up quarters and spit out tickets providing something along the line of casino type "try your luck" games), the usual arrangement of Virtua Mortal Dawn of the Bass Fishing Kombat video games, and the occasional pinball machine. A lot of the arcade manufacturers are kaput too.

 

If Atari did re-release some form of the 2600 like has been suggested in other discussions. I think it would be greeted warmly by some, especially collectors. But would probably find it's way to a home on the shelf at Radio Shack next to the RC cars. If Atari were to seriously commit themselves to a 2600 project, they would not only need to release the system, but also rerelease the entire library of cartridges (or at least a decent selection of them). We here at Atariage know where to dig up cartridges out of the woodwork. But for someone new to the "new 2600" they would have to tap into a fresh source of games. Probably from the retail store that they picked up the unit from.

 

The only thing Atari wouldn't have to do is manufacture more ET carts. There is enough of them out there.

 

Stepping off soapbox,

Blit

[Raijin Z]

Too many buttons?! I bet you have a Mac, right?

[AtariDude]

Having Nolan Bushnell start Atari again would be a fun idea but I think he would have a difficult time gaining a foot hold this time. The world has changed and I don't think another console can be supported at this time. The only way would be to release a console so far in advance of anything that exists and be made inexpensively would be the one way that it could gain a foothold and I don't think that would work from a economics point of view.

 

Certainly Mr. Bushnell knows how to make fun, family games but the only games that seem to do well nowadays are violent games (look at all the Quake clones that have been released as evidence).

 

While Steve Jobs was able to help Apple, Apple is still pretty small (3-5% percent of the total marketplace for computers). While they make good machines, they are still a niche market at best. About the only thing that has done well is the iPOD and it will do better now that Apple has officially released support for Windows.

[Inky]

Too many buttons?! I bet you have a Mac, right?

 

He has a gateway.

 

And I agree with what he says... We've had many a discussion on similar topics.

[DanBoris]

On that note.. Has anybody stepped into an arcade lately? The ones by me are now dominated by kiddie gambling games (the kind that suck up quarters and spit out tickets providing something along the line of casino type "try your luck" games), the usual arrangement of Virtua Mortal Dawn of the Bass Fishing Kombat video games, and the occasional pinball machine. A lot of the arcade manufacturers are kaput too.  

 

The state of the arcade industry is very sad. It's interesting to compare the home game and arcade industries. Home games took a major hit as we all know in the crash, but within a few years they recovered and are now a thriving industry (game quality aside). On the other hand the arcade industry was not hit as hard by the crash but's it's decline has continued until this day.

 

I don't think arcades can compete with today's home systems. Back in the 70's and 80's arcade games where always well ahead of the technology curve compared to home systems, but today the home systems have really caught up to the arcade technology. The major exception being the "simulator" type games, (skiing simulators, driving sims, etc) which you can't get the same expience from in a home system. Unfortunetly these machines are so expensive it's hard to run them economically.

 

Another interesting point is that in the 70's and 80's arcade where a major social hangout, especially for younger people, but I don't think this is any longer the case. So the question is, did the aracdes die because they stopped being a hangout, or did they stop being a hangout because they where dying?

 

Dan

[Raijin Z]

In another city I lived in, there was an old brick building with Pacman art painted all over it, but it was burned out. It used to be an arcade, but someone burned it down. In a small redneck town I moved to later, someone started an arcade by the highschool, but someone broke into it, stole whatever they coud carry, and trashed the rest.

 

I hate people.

[BlitterBit]

Too many buttons?! I bet you have a Mac, right?

 

Nope... A Win95 PC. And my classic gaming system is a Colecovision with its multi-buttoned controllers.

 

blit

[BlitterBit]

I don't think arcades can compete with today's home systems. Back in the 70's and 80's arcade games where always well ahead of the technology curve compared to home systems, but today the home systems have really caught up to the arcade technology. The major exception being the "simulator" type games, (skiing simulators, driving sims, etc) which you can't get the same expience from in a home system. Unfortunetly these machines are so expensive it's hard to run them economically.

 

I think you hit a good point. The early game systems were very driven by what was in the arcade. I remember as a kid hoping that the home version of an arcade game would be just as cool.

 

Regarding the arcade techology curve. How much more can be milked out of the 3D genre of games? When the Playstation came out it seemed like every game was required to be 3D. Even if the game concept wasn't doable in 3D. It limits the scope of games that can be made. Like.. could a game like Food Fight or Qix be made if 3D were a requirement?

 

The problem with 3D is that it makes games so much more complex to design. Which I think kills creativity. I for one wouldn't mind seeing the return to 2D games if it meant there would be an increase of creativity and playability. Don't get me wrong. I'm not Anti-3D. What I don't like is the lack of imagination and creativity I see.

 

I think we've hit a plateau as far as graphics techology in arcade/home systems. Sure you can boost the resolution and rendering capabilities. Things would look smoother and less polygonal buuut... There isn't much more room to improve in other areas. We already are capable of displaying millions of colors, and displaying millions of polygons per second. How much more can be attained?

 

Blit

[Witchfynde]

Certainly Mr. Bushnell knows how to make fun, family games

 

Yeah, not to mention expand technology: some of his last games for the Atari 2600 were up to 64K, waaay beyond the original 4K of the 2600.

 

While Steve Jobs was able to help Apple, Apple is still pretty small (3-5% percent of the total marketplace for computers). While they make good machines, they are still a niche market at best. About the only thing that has done well is the iPOD and it will do better now that Apple has officially released support for Windows.

 

Oh, I didn't know that, that's nice to hear. Hopefully that'll help them increase sales a bit (stick it back to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs!)...

[mos6507]

2D vs. 3D gaming is like the difference between an old black and white Popeye cartoon and a modern roller coaster ride blockbuster.

 

Today, the former is considered an acquired taste at best.

 

It's almost more than two different genres, it's almost two different media now.

[The Night Phantom]

The world has changed and I don't think another console can be supported at this time. The only way would be to release a console so far in advance of anything that exists and be made inexpensively would be the one way that it could gain a foothold and I don't think that would work from a economics point of view.

2D vs. 3D gaming is like the difference between an old black and white Popeye cartoon and a modern roller coaster ride blockbuster.

 

Today, the former is considered an acquired taste at best.

 

It's almost more than two different genres, it's almost two different media now.

I put these quotes together because, although I think AtariDude has a valid point about technological advancement, I think it’s possible that a new entry in the console market might have a strong advantage if it simply were different enough from the competition. Perhaps a VCS redux would qualify, perhaps not. But I for one don’t enjoy the current direction of the home video game industry and might welcome an alternative, and perhaps many other people (including people who do enjoy the current crop) would too.

[ubersaurus]

I think the 7800 would've look outdated and lame in comparison to the NES simply because Nintendo spent money to make their games look nicer, something that Atari wouldn't. Added to the money they were throwing at the 2600 for some reason and their XE line, 7800 got much less funding then it needed to be a true competitor. This is why, in comparison to some of the early NES releases, it looks pretty close, but Nintendo quickly pulled away and embraced the new, popular, side scrolling platformer, which Atari failed to do until the very end.

[King Atari]

Okay, look at the NES vs. the 7800. In 1988, what did Nintendo have? Super Mario Bros. 1 & 2, The Legend of Zelda, Punch-Out!, as well as an assembly of classic arcade ports, that both looked AND sounded good.

 

What did the 7800 have? Just the arcade ports. Sure, there were a few originals, but compared to the NES, they weren't nearly as interesting, and almost everything sounds dismal on the 7800 (save for the POKEY games).

 

The 7800 was too slow in getting good games. Nintendo had a port of Double Dragon in 1988, naturally it was a best seller, even though it lacked two-player cooperative mode, the levels were rearranged, and the nasty heart system (though it is genuinely a load of fun to play). 7800 got it's version a year later 1989. Although it was far more faithful (and probably cheaper in cost), it sounded horrible, looked kinda bland, and by that time everyone had NES or SMS ports.

 

NES had the popular games of the time: TMNT 1/2/3 anyone? It's no wonder the 7800 failed. Atari was so stuck in it's old ways, they couldn't get anything more modern until the end of the 7800's life.

 

But when it comes right down to it, Jack Tramiel can pretty much be blamed for all of this. A big rock should fall on him.