Why some people DON'T lower the invoice?

[TomBrazil]

Canadian and Brazilian, unite on this!

 

I simply bought too much from e-bay and AA during the last 2 years. I always ask sellers to lower the invoice value, declare as GIFT, this kind of sfuff. But I realize some people have a problem with that. People can be placed in 3 groups when asked for it:

 

1) Cooperative Person:

Help you a lot, lower the value, declare as gift, this person usually tries to help the buyer as much as he can. I figure about 50% of the sellers goes like that.

 

2) Truth Guardian:

Sorry for the joke, but is the kind of person who won't declare anything that is not. Won't help you based on his personal beliefs, fright of the law or something like that. Probably 15 - 20% of the sellers.

 

3) Cautious Sellers:

This is the person who wanna help but it's not sure if he will get in any trouble because of it. He/ she usually lowers the value to a limit, try to help you but not "fully". I really can understand that, but...

 

Why do we ask for that?

 

Brazil customs are the greatest mother fuckers in the world, for starters. We have a law stating that packages under US$ 50, from person to person and without commercial value, are not taxed. But the agents can change the declared value if they think it's not real, they can tax if they find it has commercial value, and so on. So it's like a roulette game.

 

Who lives here does know that you end up paiying A LOT of tax during the year, just for collecting old used stuff. There's no other word for that.

 

So, I think it's safe to affirm that this is not a fair law. We try to avoid paying that kind of tax as much as we can, this is a long and debated problem for Brazilian collectors of any kind.

 

Having said that, I do believe there's no reason one wouldn't try to help. But I heard lots of things, most common excuses are:

 

"I cannot lie to the customs."

 

"I will not lie because I'm a religious person." - (I figure this one must live an impeccable life)

 

"I can't lie because people at the post office knows me and they know I'm not sending a gift".

 

I also learned : US people usually don't know the kind of problem we experience in the customs. As far as I know, in Canada and Brazil the customs are the worst.

 

Sometimes, an item costs 50% to 100% more just because of the customs + shipping. The worst example was Tank Command I bought from nfarj. a US$ 80-90 cart arrived in my home as a US$ 140 one, because he wouldn't "lie".

 

COME ON PEOPLE!!!! YOU ARE NOT "LYING". You WILL NOT burn in hell for that matters!! You WILL NOT go to jail! If you want do declare everything on your tax declaration, that's fine. But to help us paying less tax won't hurt you too!

 

There. I said it. Now let the flames begin!

[maibock]

What if I declared a lesser value for an item, the item gets lost in transit and when I go make a claim because I took insurance, I'd be farked if I declared a value less than its worth, would I not?

[YOK-dfa]

And besides, declaring a too low value is actually against the law in a lot of countries. Why should i take the risk of going to jail or face a fine just because you don't want to pay the taxed your *own* government has set?

 

Don't get me wrong, i hate those import taxes too (got burned by them a few times) but if a seller doesn't want to declare it a gift i a) buy it somewhere else or b) suck it up.

[Trade-N-Games]

I try to lower the value but I have so many things going out that its hard, But most of the time is more than one game and the people at the post office know me now.

Now I am a business so I also include an invoice in the box every time I ship so I have to clearly address it as a business package and not a gift to my dear old friend who just happens to collect game from another country, what if your customs opened a box that had a bunch of old atari games in it and saw my invoice that had no prices and decided to say its worth $1000 that what would happen?

[Rick Weis]

i take the risk of going to jail or face a fine.

 

 

a) buy it somewhere else or b) suck it up.

 

 

 

OK, who here has gone to Jail or been fined because of this? speak up now! i would be surprised if anyone has been for lying/cheating Value on videogames..

(edit) when i say this i'm talking about non-business people. if you buy a game from a business/store that's something different. i can see the need not to lie.

 

A or (b + stop cring about it) sounds like good advice!

 

i fall into #1 but that's just me, come and get me mr. policeman!

 

Rick

 

BTW insurance on items for items going out of the coutry=waste of money! good luck collecting on it!

Edited March 11, 2006 by Rick Weis

[txsizzler]

Whenever I ship internationally, I will always claim it as a "gift" item, declaring the value at 5 bucks, regardless to what it is, unless the buyer demands insurance. If they want to have it insured, I will declare the full value of the merchandise, and I inform the buyer of this.

[Christophero Sly]

I simply bought too much from e-bay and AA during the last 2 years. I always ask sellers to lower the invoice value, declare as GIFT, this kind of sfuff. But I realize some people have a problem with that. People can be placed in 3 groups when asked for it:

 

1) Cooperative Person:

Help you a lot, lower the value, declare as gift, this person usually tries to help the buyer as much as he can. I figure about 50% of the sellers goes like that.

 

2) Truth Guardian:

Sorry for the joke, but is the kind of person who won't declare anything that is not. Won't help you based on his personal beliefs, fright of the law or something like that. Probably 15 - 20% of the sellers.

 

3) Cautious Sellers:

This is the person who wanna help but it's not sure if he will get in any trouble because of it. He/ she usually lowers the value to a limit, try to help you but not "fully". I really can understand that, but...

When you ask someone to lie on a customs form, you're asking them to break the laws of their country and commit fraud. The sender is required to sign a customs form, swearing under penalty of law that it is accurate.

 

Is it really so hard for you to understand why people are unwilling to falsify this form for you?

 

We have a law stating that packages under US$ 50, from person to person and without commercial value, are not taxed. But the agents can change the declared value if they think it's not real, they can tax if they find it has commercial value, and so on. So it's like a roulette game.

 

Who lives here does know that you end up paiying A LOT of tax during the year, just for collecting old used stuff. There's no other word for that.

 

So, I think it's safe to affirm that this is not a fair law. We try to avoid paying that kind of tax as much as we can, this is a long and debated problem for Brazilian collectors of any kind.

Boo Hoo!

 

Why don't you quit whining about it and petition your government to change your laws instead of asking us to break our laws?.

 

Having said that, I do believe there's no reason one wouldn't try to help. But I heard lots of things, most common excuses are:

 

"I cannot lie to the customs."

 

"I will not lie because I'm a religious person." - (I figure this one must live an impeccable life)

 

"I can't lie because people at the post office knows me and they know I'm not sending a gift".

COME ON PEOPLE!!!! YOU ARE NOT "LYING". You WILL NOT burn in hell for that matters!! You WILL NOT go to jail!  If you want do declare everything on your tax declaration, that's fine. But to help us paying less tax won't hurt you too!

These aren't "excuses"

 

I don't know where you get off mocking the values and integrity of others, but your arrogance and lack of integrity is disgusting.

 

I also learned : US people usually don't know the kind of problem we experience in the customs.

Frankly, it's not our problem. I'm totally sympathetic to the added expense your tax system creates for you as a collector, but asking us to break our laws and mocking us when we refuse, is deeply offensive.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Christophero Sly

[Mayhem]

I think part of the problem is, and in the UK at least it's true, is that technically second hand goods sold privately are not liable for VAT (or sales tax as it's called in the US). However if I buy something second hand abroad and bring it into the country, I'm liable for VAT on it if it is valued over 18 GBP (US$30)! Makes sense? Hell the fuck no to me. Even more so when the limit for physically bringing back to the UK (compared to sending in the mail) is almost 10 times greater!

 

I can understand paying import duty on it, I have no problem with that. But paying 17.5% of the declared value (that's the figure on the Customs form PLUS the value of the shipping... yeah WTF?!) as well... is why at all times, if the item isn't being insured, I ask the seller to mark down the value. 99% of the time they have no problem doing so. I think they understand the stupidity of it.

 

So to TomBrazil, be grateful you have a $50 limit. It's much less here! Of course anything I buy from Europe can sail through regardless of weight or value...

[TomBrazil]

OK, who here has gone to Jail or been fined because of this? speak up now! i would be surprised if anyone has been for lying/cheating Value on videogames..

(edit) when i say this i'm talking about non-business people. if you buy a game from a business/store that's something different. i can see the need not to lie.

I agree, Rick. I have never heard of someone being jailed or even fined for that. A business is completely different, of course. But mostly who sells old videogames are not business.

 

 

Is it really so hard for you to understand why people are unwilling to falsify this form for you?

 

Boo Hoo! 

Why don't you quit whining about it and petition your government to change your laws instead of asking us to break our laws?.

 

I don't know where you get off mocking the values and integrity of others, but your arrogance and lack of integrity is disgusting.

That's the kind of thought I was refererring to. I don't think a bunch of Atari collectors will change a country's law - LOL. And I don't think I shall stop collecting because of that. I'll try to avoid paying taxes, as most people here do, in countries where custom taxes apply. When you criticize me, you're criticizing too many collectors well known here. But most of them didn't speak untill now.

 

You say that I'm arrogant, and I have no integrity - shame on you, buddy. You hardly know me, you really became offended with everything I wrote, though I never directly it for you. Remember: you're also calling some very reputed AA members this way. I'm only the one who spoke first about it, but I know lots of people who think like me.

 

If you had the opportunity to know me, in my life and my business, you would never raise your voice to accuse me of lack of integrity, dear buddy. This only shows everyone here how short sighted you are, when you accuse me of this just because I want to avoid custom taxes. Not everyone has this narrow and square way of thinking. Come on, it's not murder we're talking about.

 

So to TomBrazil, be grateful you have a $50 limit. It's much less here! Of course anything I buy from Europe can sail through regardless of weight or value...

1031913[/snapback]

If only our customs always respect that limit... Well, very nice that you can buy from all Europe, I think this is a very good start! I think you're lucky than us.

 

Our custom tax is 60%, very abusive!!! Your line of thought is the same that I have, this is plain stupíd for buying old stuff, who were already taxed and government already profited when they were originally sold, as new. Laws doesnt always apply fairly to ALL situations.

[TomBrazil]

FORGOT TO TELL YOU:

 

Despite being charged as 60% at the customs, they also apply the tax on shipping!!!

 

Example:

 

Atari Lot = US$ 80

Shipping = US$ 40 (reasonable international rate)

 

Tax will be over US$ 120. When you apply 60% on it, you have US$ 72 tax, when they "believe" in the invoice. They can raise if they suspect.

[sku_u]

BTW insurance on items for items going out of the coutry=waste of money!  good luck collecting on it!

1031870[/snapback]

 

Insurance is a complete joke and waste of time when shipping through the USPS period. I was unable to collect on an item that arrived destroyed even after showing all the necessary proof because they argued the item wasn't wrapped carefully enough which is one of about 2000 exclusions they have in their bullet proof insurance agreement.

 

On the topic at hand. I'll adjust it if it's going to someone I already know but will not do so for someone I have never sent anything to. I also will not send an item internationally to someone I do not know unless they are Paypal verified and pay the extra for expedited shipping with tracking. I've been screwed half a dozen times selling something to someone (one was through this site) then having them claim non-delivery which I obviously cannot prove so I lose my money after the fact. Sorry.

 

BTW, why the hell would anyone apply shipping to the total amount on the customs charge? That's just stupidity. Shipping has nothing to do with the value of a given item.

[sku_u]

That's the kind of thought I was refererring to. I don't think a bunch of Atari collectors will change a country's law - LOL.  And I don't think I shall stop collecting because of that. I'll try to avoid paying taxes, as most people here do, in countries where custom taxes apply. When you criticize me, you're criticizing too many collectors well known here. But most of them didn't speak untill now.

 

You say that I'm arrogant, and I have no integrity - shame on you, buddy. You hardly know me, you really became offended with everything I wrote, though I never directly it for you. Remember: you're also calling some very reputed AA members this way. I'm only the one who spoke first about it, but I know lots of people who think like me.

 

Actually this topic's come up quite a few times over the past 5 years and is a sore point with a lot of collectors here both from the US and from abroad.

[Christophero Sly]

That's the kind of thought I was refererring to. I don't think a bunch of Atari collectors will change a country's law - LOL.

Then I guess you're out of luck.

 

I'll try to avoid paying taxes, as most people here do, in countries where custom taxes apply.

I'm sure you'll do whatever you want. If you want to break the law in your own country, that's your prerogative, but don't expect us to be complicit in your fraud.

 

When you criticize me, you're criticizing too many collectors well known here. But most of them didn't speak untill now.

So be it. That wouldn't concern me in the slightest.

 

You say that I'm arrogant, and I have no integrity - shame on you, buddy. You hardly know me, you really became offended with everything I wrote, though I never directly it for you.

Of course you were directing your mockery at me because I'm one of those people who would refuse to commit fraud for you.

 

I'll admit that my previous characterization of your integrity was too broad, but when you mock us for our refusal to participate... please don't act so putout when we take offense.

 

Remember: you're also calling some very reputed AA members this way. I'm only the one who spoke first about it, but I know lots of people who think like me.

Thanks for reminding me... that I don't care. Is it asking too much of you and whoever else that you be able to simply respect the word "NO"?

 

This only shows everyone here how short sighted you are, when you accuse me of this just because I want to avoid custom taxes. Not everyone has this narrow and square way of thinking.

I don't understand your logic here. You attempt to evade taxes and you ask other's to be complicit in your actions. If I say that demonstrates a lack of integrity, I'm being "short-sided"!?!

[Artlover]

I'm only the one who spoke first about it, but I know lots of people who think like me.

1031976[/snapback]

Can you tell me who so I can add them to my ignore list too?

[TomBrazil]

very funny.

 

To end this: there's no common sense about it. Different opinions.

 

I agree with sku_u, though. This seems to be a sore point here.

 

And, of course, it's plain stupid to pay tax over shipping...

[supercat]

I think part of the problem is, and in the UK at least it's true, is that technically second hand goods sold privately are not liable for VAT (or sales tax as it's called in the US). However if I buy something second hand abroad and bring it into the country, I'm liable for VAT on it if it is valued over 18 GBP (US$30)! Makes sense? Hell the fluff no to me. Even more so when the limit for physically bringing back to the UK (compared to sending in the mail) is almost 10 times greater!

 

If someone in the UK sells a product that they earlier bought in the UK, that person has presumably already paid 15-17.5% VAT (depending upon when they bought it) or else bought it from someone else who did. Thus, there is no VAT to resell the item since the VAT has already been paid once.

 

If someone purchases a product from the US, it's far less likely that the UK VAT will ever have been paid on that item. If an expensive item one was purchasing from the US had previously been sold in the UK, and if the VAT had been paid at that time and never refunded, then it would seem logical not to have to pay VAT again; my guess would be that there are rules providing for such an excemption, but that they are probably sufficiently complicated as to be useless to a normal person.

 

As for the distinction between the postal exemption versus the personal transit exemption, I think that has to do with the relative costs of sending a package by post versus going somewhere in person.

 

Suppose that there were a £200 VAT exemption for packages received by post. Then someone purchasing lots of merchandise could ask the seller to ship it in packages each holding under £199 worth of merchandise, and thus avoid the VAT. Even if this adds £150 to the cost of shipping £990 worth of merchandise (£30 per package) that would still be cheaper than aggregating the shipment and paying over £170 VAT.

 

On the other hand, even with a £500 VAT exemption for items carried personally on overseas trips, few people would make repeated overseas trips bringing £499 worth of merchandise each time, for the purpose of saving at most £87.50 in VAT per trip.

[okto]

Doesn't common sense say "Follow the law" and "Don't mess with people that can take your stuff"?

Cos lying to the government and cheating them out of import tariffs, no matter how silly they bay be, is illegal in pretty much any country.

 

So, your argument that breaking the law (and making a citizen of another nation an accomplice) so you can save money is neither lying, nor illigal, nor foolish, is pretty flimsy. Actually it's just bullshit.

[Artlover]

very funny.

To end this: there's no common sense about it. Different opinions.

Sorry, there are no "valid" different opinions on the matter. The law is the law, and just because you don't like it and feel it's wrong doesn't give you the right to just ignore it. End of story.

 

The laws of your country require you to pay said taxes. The fact that you personaly don't like them, dont want to pay them, don't feel you should and proudly go out of your way to not only brag about refusing to pay due taxes whever possible but demanding that others participate in your activities to help you accomplish this doesn't change the fact that it IS law, and doing anything to circumvent such laws IS illegal.

 

The fact that you boldly say in the first post of this thread "You're not lying" is absolutly stunning since falsafying documents IS lying and IS illegal, and no amount of personal objection or delusion can change that fact.

 

And no, I'm not going to get all high and mighty on the legal morality point. I've done things that are, by law here, illegal, despite my own personal objections of the fact. To that end, that's me, making my own choice about something I'm doing and concerns only myself with myself being the only one responcible. That's the difference. I'm not dragging other innocent people who don't share my view into my activities. I'm willing to accept, understand and respect that others choose to follow the law, and no fault should be made against them for that.

 

If you want to break the laws of your country, go for it, I could care less, but that's as far as it goes. You don't have any right at all to expect or demand others also break the law to suit you. It's honestly not anyone elses problem that you think you should be above the law of your country.

 

Get the laws changed, move or deal with it. Those are the only 3 legal options one has. Outside of that, you need to keep any shady ass illegal crap you want to do to yourself, and not drag everyone else down to your level.