Zellers and equivalents?

[StanJr]

I can puzzle out most of the Zellers knock-offs via screenshot, but not all of them (Challenge for example). Does anyone have a complete list of Zellers and their real game equivalents?

[+Omegamatrix]

Here you go.

 

Busy Police = Keystone Kapers

Challenge (NTSC) = Challenge (PAL) HES

Circus (use joystick) = Circus Atari (use paddles)

Dragon Treasure = Dragonfire

Earth Attack = Defender

Farmer Dan = Gopher

Freeway = Freeway

Frontline = Combat

Inca Gold = Spider Maze

Laser Volley = Laser Gates

Ocean City Defender (hack with different ships, Funvision logo) = Atlantis

Pinball = Arcade Pinball

Radar = Exocet (Panda)

Scuba Diver = Scuba Diver (Panda)

Sea Hawk = Sea Hawk (Panda)

Space Adventure = Flash Gordon

Time Warp (NTSC) = Funvision's Time Race (PAL)

Turmoil = Turmoil

Edited April 4, 2006 by Omegamatrix

[StanJr]

thank you, sweet prince!

[+Omegamatrix]

thank you, sweet prince!

Lol, just don't kiss me I'm happy the way I am.

 

Ribbbitttt. Flies are tasty.

[StanJr]

Radar=Exocet, but Exocet is a Panda game, so what is Exocet a derivative of?

[+Omegamatrix]

Radar=Exocet, but Exocet is a Panda game, so what is Exocet a derivative of?

I remembered Exocet was the same as Froggo's Cruise Missile, but both of these games are pirates themselves I think. To go to the true source you probably have to look into the PAL side of things. Here's a link to Atarimania's Radar entry. Note that Bandit, Space Eagle, and Exoset Missile are all PAL. Exoset Missile is the most interesting title as it fits right between Froggo's Cruise Missile and Panda's Exocet (maybe a link?). Perhaps Cruise Missile was an original after all.

 

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?..._ID=7044&MENU=2

[Foxsolo2000]

Here you go.

 

Busy Police = Keystone Kapers

Challenge (NTSC) = Challenge (PAL) HES

Circus (use joystick) = Circus Atari (use paddles)

Dragon Treasure = Dragonfire

Earth Attack = Defender

Farmer Dan = Gopher

Freeway = Freeway

Frontline = Combat

Inca Gold = Spider Maze

Laser Volley = Laser Gates

Ocean City Defender (hack with different ships, Funvision logo) = Atlantis

Pinball = Arcade Pinball

Radar = Exocet (Panda)

Scuba Diver = Scuba Diver (Panda)

Sea Hawk = Sea Hawk (Panda)

Space Adventure = Flash Gordon

Time Warp (NTSC) = X'Mission from Home Vision (PAL) also known as Raumpatrouille from Quelle (PAL)

Turmoil = Turmoil

 

 

Is that the complete list or are there others still out there?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Perhaps Cruise Missile was an original after all.

Maybe CloneSpy can help here:

																0  1  2  3
0 Exocet (AKA Space Eagle) (Sancho-Goliath) (PAL) [!]········   · 96 97 89
1 Radar (CCE) (PAL) [!]······································   =  · 99 91
2 Cruise Missile (AKA Radar) (1982) (Froggo)·················   =  =  · 92
3 Exocet (AKA Space Eagle) (Panda) (PAL)·····················   =  =  =  ·

It seems that the 2nd Exocet is pretty different from the other ones and closest to Cruise Missile. Cruise Missile and Radar are almost 100% identical (only the copyright data is different).

 

BTW: The Sancho Exocet is the only PAL binary, all others seem to be NTSC.

[+Omegamatrix]

Is that the complete list or are there others still out there?

Do you mean look alike carts with those weird names Foxsolo? I have never see those up here in the wild or on eBay Canada. I do see them from PAL collectors and occasionally on eBay USA (mistakenly labeled as Zellers carts). Zellers carts were packaged specifically for the Canadian Market and I've never seen any titles that weren't in English. If I saw a box with the Zellers logo and one of those weird titles then I'd be a believer. I really don't think anymore exist then what I have listed.

 

I have seen pictures of the Zellers logo on the box for every title I listed except Space Adventure. Seeing how both AtariAge and Atarimania list Space Adventure in their databases I believe it's the real deal. AA says how they don't like to list Zellers titles until they at least see a box. Speaking of such Sly posted a picture of a boxed Scuba Diver and Sea Hawk long ago, but these are still have not been added to the database as Zellers carts.

[+Omegamatrix]

Perhaps Cruise Missile was an original after all.

Maybe CloneSpy can help here:

																0  1  2  3
0 Exocet (AKA Space Eagle) (Sancho-Goliath) (PAL) [!]········   · 96 97 89
1 Radar (CCE) (PAL) [!]······································   =  · 99 91
2 Cruise Missile (AKA Radar) (1982) (Froggo)·················   =  =  · 92
3 Exocet (AKA Space Eagle) (Panda) (PAL)·····················   =  =  =  ·

It seems that the 2nd Exocet is pretty different from the other ones and closest to Cruise Missile. Cruise Missile and Radar are almost 100% identical (only the copyright data is different).

 

BTW: The Sancho Exocet is the only PAL binary, all others seem to be NTSC.

Thomas, what do the numbers on top 0 1 2 3 mean? Is that each bank? I've never learned how to make clonespy do what you have done here. How do you do it? The best I have ever done is to get clonespy to tell me if a rom is identical or not.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Thomas, what do the numbers on top 0 1 2 3 mean? Is that each bank? I've never learned how to make clonespy do what you have done here. How do you do it? The best I have ever done is to get clonespy to tell me if a rom is identical or not.

What you see is a matrix with the games compared in columns and rows. 0 1 2 3 is just a reference to the games in the rows (where you will find the numbers too). 0 refers to the 1st row, 1 to the 2nd etc.

 

A dot in the matrix means, that here we are comparing the game with itself (which doesn't make any sense). The numbers below the diagonal formed by the dots tell you how many % of the code, data etc. of the game in that column can be found inside the game of that row. Above the diagonal it is just the other way around.

 

The = only appears below the diagonal and means, that there is not difference between this value and the matching value above the diagonal. Usually this is true, but sometimes those values differ significantly, giving you an idea e.g. which version is more advanced. Then the advanced version contains more code of the other version than the other version contains of the advanced version.

 

The percentage colors become hotter (more red) the higher the percentage value. This works only in fullscreen mode.

 

Finally CloneSpy tries to order the games. Those games which are most similar with the other games are usually listed in the middle rows (and columns). Above and below you find the games which are less similar on average (in our case it seems that the bottom Exocet is probably the PAL conversion of Cruise Missile right above). This ordering is not always perfect, so you should have a look at the % values too.

 

Since everything is based on a statistical approach, the results are not 100% reliable. For details you have to analyze the code manually. But at least you get an idea where to search.

 

BTW: All games are named according to Good2600 v1.0.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+Omegamatrix]

Thank you Thomas. That makes much more sense now. I have a few more questions, but I'll save them for a more appropiate topic.

 

I've seen pictures of Zellers logos on boxes for all the titles I listed except Space Adventure. It is the second hardest to get Zellers cart IMHO. Well after a nice little eBay win last week I now have a loose Space Adventure with instructions. Note the languages are English/French like all Zellers instructions.

 

 

Marco,

 

If you are out there can you please post a scan of the Space Adventure box? That would confirm them all on the list, and would be much appreciated.

[+Omegamatrix]

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering about boxes not in the AA database:

 

 

Inca Gold

Sea Hawk & Scuba Diver

Turmoil

Space Adventure

 

 

 

Edit 04/27/06: Updated the links, added a link for Space Adventure, and a pic of Busy Police.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Omegamatrix

[StanJr]

so if Exocet/Cruise Missile is an original game and not a hack/rip-off, which is the original and which is the dupe?

[Rom Hunter]

so if Exocet/Cruise Missile is an original game and not a hack/rip-off, which is the original and which is the dupe?

Exocet from Sancho (Tang's Electronic Co. Ltd.) is the original one.

Panda just ripped it and made a NTSC conversion.

 

Just remember this: there are no original Panda games.

 

Edited April 2, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Exocet from Sancho (Tang's Electronic Co. Ltd.) is the original one.

Panda just ripped it and made a NTSC conversion.

Not quite.

 

The codebase of the first 3 games listed by CloneSpy above is identical. The Panda version however, seems to be basd on some older code. Most noticable are:

 

- the lives counter, which has a colored background in the advanced versions (which becomes important when your score reaches 10,000 points)

- you cannot shot the top installations when flying in the underground in the advanced versions

- last not least, the code, which is out-of-sync, having missing and additional parts

 

Maybe the Panda version is based on a WIP prototype?

 

BTW: All versions are in fact NTSC, except for the first in the list. The Good2600 names are wrong!

Edited April 2, 2006 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Nukey Shay]

Interesting...so perhaps a 3rd party was involved? Maybe an hobbiest or something that wrote the base and ended up selling it to both companies for development? There were cash offers at the time for virtually anything new...and eprom dev kits were pretty easy to find at the backs of computer-related mags.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

The Panda "WIP proto" still contains the complete Sancho copyright, it just has been disabled by setting the colors to black (the same "trick" has been used e.g. with Sea Hawk).

 

The plot thickens.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Foxsolo2000]

Is that the complete list or are there others still out there?

Do you mean look alike carts with those weird names Foxsolo? I have never see those up here in the wild or on eBay Canada. I do see them from PAL collectors and occasionally on eBay USA (mistakenly labeled as Zellers carts). Zellers carts were packaged specifically for the Canadian Market and I've never seen any titles that weren't in English. If I saw a box with the Zellers logo and one of those weird titles then I'd be a believer. I really don't think anymore exist then what I have listed.

 

I have seen pictures of the Zellers logo on the box for every title I listed except Space Adventure. Seeing how both AtariAge and Atarimania list Space Adventure in their databases I believe it's the real deal. AA says how they don't like to list Zellers titles until they at least see a box. Speaking of such Sly posted a picture of a boxed Scuba Diver and Sea Hawk long ago, but these are still have not been added to the database as Zellers carts.

 

I actually meant is that the complete list of titles that Zellers offered. On a different note does anyone know if any third party company was actually taken to court over stealing an idea of another third party company? I know Atari sued most companies for what they saw as pirating of their ideas but did any of the smaller companies sue other companies that blatanly stole their games?

[+Omegamatrix]

I actually meant is that the complete list of titles that Zellers offered. On a different note does anyone know if any third party company was actually taken to court over stealing an idea of another third party company? I know Atari sued most companies for what they saw as pirating of their ideas but did any of the smaller companies sue other companies that blatanly stole their games?

As far as I know Foxsolo2000 that's it for Zellers titles. I never heard of any suing with the third parties put you never know.

[Foxsolo2000]

It just came to me the other day when I read about Atari sueing Magnovox over K C Munchkin because it was too much like Pac Man and Parker sueing Starpath over Frogger. Sueing the Taiwan companies might have been too difficult to pull off but what about the American and European based pirates?

[Nukey Shay]

It just came to me the other day when I read about Atari sueing Magnovox over K C Munchkin because it was too much like Pac Man and Parker sueing Starpath over Frogger. Sueing the Taiwan companies might have been too difficult to pull off but what about the American and European based pirates?

Good call, since many countries didn't even consider computer copyright violation much of a crime back in the day...and even the US government was largely disinterested in getting involved unless some major bucks were in the mix (according to Clifford Stoll, The Cuckoo's Egg).

[Rom Hunter]

The Panda "WIP proto" still contains the complete Sancho copyright, it just has been disabled by setting the colors to black (the same "trick" has been used e.g. with Sea Hawk).

 

The plot thickens.

Again:

 

The Taiwanese company Sancho (Tang's Electronic Co. Ltd.) is responsible for the original Exocet.

 

The Panda version came later.

 

[Marco]

Of course, there's also still the conspiracy theory that Atari was actually involved in pirating!

 

Not so long ago, an interesting Atari 2600 console appeared on Ebay. Nothing special, at first sight, but upon closer inspection, this console gives us a first clue of Atari’s involvement in piracy. This console, with both Atari's name on the box and the chips inside, contains 128 built-in games. Among them, there are many well-known pirate titles, like Boom Bang, Farmyard Fun and Pyramid War. Interestingly, the games that are on the official Atari 32-in-1 cart, are exactly the same as the first 32 games listed on the instruction sheet that comes with the 128-in-1 Atari Jr console.

 

Another interesting bit is that Atari products in Austrlia were distributed by Futuretronics Australia Pty. This company was formerly known as Action Hi-Tech, well-known as one of the Australian pirateers. So, Atari Australia was involved in the sale of pirate carts and consoles (there's an Australian 128 in 1 console with the Atari logo on box and innerworks of the console).

 

This raises the question as to the nature of Atari’s involvement. Where did they get the pirates included in the 128-in-1 console? Or was Atari behind some of the pirate games itself? Was it trying to penetrate different parts of the market with several brands? Were the pirate games in fact secondary brands, commonly used by big electronics firms? Was it Post-Crash management, trying to deal with the loss of the US market by releasing cheaper games to the still hungry gamers in Europe and Australia?

 

The similarity between some of the weird graphics on the Atari 32-in-1 box and the artwork found on Zellers and John Sands boxes, could point to Atari being a multi-market, multi-faced company, controlling more parts of the market than we thought they were.

 

The recent discovery of a SuperVision cartridge in Australia however could support the thesis. This SuperVision game - Mario Bros. - turned out to contain an official Atari PCB! Now the question of course is: did Atari allow its Taiwanese PCB manufacturer to sell their products to other companies (with some sort of fee for Atari for every sold PCB, of course) or was the PCB company moonlighting without Atari knowing it?

 

Cheers,

Marco

[Rom Hunter]

Of course, there's also still the conspiracy theory that Atari was actually involved in pirating!

 

Not so long ago, an interesting Atari 2600 console appeared on Ebay. Nothing special, at first sight, but upon closer inspection, this console gives us a first clue of Atari’s involvement in piracy. This console, with both Atari's name on the box and the chips inside, contains 128 built-in games. Among them, there are many well-known pirate titles, like Boom Bang, Farmyard Fun and Pyramid War. Interestingly, the games that are on the official Atari 32-in-1 cart, are exactly the same as the first 32 games listed on the instruction sheet that comes with the 128-in-1 Atari Jr console.

 

Another interesting bit is that Atari products in Austrlia were distributed by Futuretronics Australia Pty. This company was formerly known as Action Hi-Tech, well-known as one of the Australian pirateers. So, Atari Australia was involved in the sale of pirate carts and consoles (there's an Australian 128 in 1 console with the Atari logo on box and innerworks of the console).

 

This raises the question as to the nature of Atari’s involvement. Where did they get the pirates included in the 128-in-1 console? Or was Atari behind some of the pirate games itself? Was it trying to penetrate different parts of the market with several brands? Were the pirate games in fact secondary brands, commonly used by big electronics firms? Was it Post-Crash management, trying to deal with the loss of the US market by releasing cheaper games to the still hungry gamers in Europe and Australia?

 

The similarity between some of the weird graphics on the Atari 32-in-1 box and the artwork found on Zellers and John Sands boxes, could point to Atari being a multi-market, multi-faced company, controlling more parts of the market than we thought they were.

 

The recent discovery of a SuperVision cartridge in Australia however could support the thesis. This SuperVision game - Mario Bros. - turned out to contain an official Atari PCB! Now the question of course is: did Atari allow its Taiwanese PCB manufacturer to sell their products to other companies (with some sort of fee for Atari for every sold PCB, of course) or was the PCB company moonlighting without Atari knowing it?

 

Cheers,

Marco

The SuperVision Mario Bros. with the official Atari PCB has always fascinated me.

 

IMO these pirate companies got hold of left over Atari material, but it's an interesting thought that Atari must have known this all the way and even gave permission to them to use it.

 

Edited April 2, 2006 by Rom Hunter