+bf2k+ Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Okay, risking the dumb-question-of-the-thread award.... What exactly does an MIO do? ... My main reason for buying one (back in the day) was to have a hard disk on my Atari 8-bit BBS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) The memory on the MIO was originally intended be used as memory for the ramdisk(s). It is standalone to the device itself which is why you can turn the Atari off and it will keep its contents. Nothing precludes you from directly accessing the memory but the way it is mapped is not the same as any XL/XE banking as it is seen 256-bytes at a time at $D600-$D6FF. So no, the extra memory is not visible to standard software. Hmmm. Well, I wouldnt quite agree with the terms "Not Visible" because if thats the case, then normal XL/XE extended ram is also "not visible" to software that is not specifically written to take advantage of it. MIO RAM is just as "visible" to software as normal XL/XE extended ram is... Here again, it just depends on whether or not the software/handler is written to take advantage of it. If you write your software to expect extended ram in 16k banks appearing at $4000 and bank control at $D301, then XL/XE extended ram is "visible" to that software... If not, it is just as "invisible" as MIO RAM.. If you write your software to expect extended ram in 256byte banks appearing at $D600 and bank control at $D1E0 and $D1E2, then MIO RAM is "visible" to that software. If not, it is just as "invisible" as XL/XE extended RAM. In a purely technical sense, NO EXTENDED RAM is ever "visible" to the CPU unless/until software sets the bank-select register to the appropriate state to make it "visible". What I'm getting at here is that the MIO's RAM (Being a PBI device) is actually on the system bus. Its not like some remote storage device hanging on the end of an SIO cable. It doesn't suffer from access-speed limitations when compared to any other RAM. It doesn't require some crazy assed custom driver system just to access it. And it is by no means limited by design to disk/storage device related useage roles. It is actual Dynamic Ram that is hooked directly on the ATARI's data bus. Edited September 30, 2008 by MEtalGuy66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Okay, risking the dumb-question-of-the-thread award.... What exactly does an MIO do? ... My main reason for buying one (back in the day) was to have a hard disk on my Atari 8-bit BBS. Exactly what use are hard drives on an 8-bit? I've always been curious about this (I'm not saying that they aren't useful, I just don't know). Also, what do people use their MIO's for today? I suppose a big RAM Disk with hard drives would be nice for running a BBS on actual hardware (as you said), but what else? Are people still doing serious computing with their 8-bits that requires something like a MIO or is it more a 'just because you can' type of thing? I pretty much only use mine for games these days. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 Okay, risking the dumb-question-of-the-thread award.... What exactly does an MIO do? ... My main reason for buying one (back in the day) was to have a hard disk on my Atari 8-bit BBS. Exactly what use are hard drives on an 8-bit? I've always been curious about this (I'm not saying that they aren't useful, I just don't know). Also, what do people use their MIO's for today? I suppose a big RAM Disk with hard drives would be nice for running a BBS on actual hardware (as you said), but what else? Are people still doing serious computing with their 8-bits that requires something like a MIO or is it more a 'just because you can' type of thing? I pretty much only use mine for games these days. Tempest Personally, I like to store the entire SpartaDOS toolkit, construction set, etc. in MIO RAM, and put commonly used applications like term programs, games, editors, coding/debugging tools, etc. on the hardisk.... Then, with the use of a CSS MULTIPLEXER system, all of my atari's can boot into spartados in like 3 seconds (From the MIO ramdisk,) and have access to all of my most used applications on the hardisk... This is much faster than any type of SIO connected storage device, and very convenient. I also have SIO2PC on all of my ataris for the purpose of sharing files to/from the internet/PC-world. And yes, this configuration also makes alot of sense for a huge multinode BBS running on up to 9 ataris.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 You can run games from the hard disk? I didn't think that was possible unless they were specifically coded to run that way. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 Hmm.. All of the games that Ive seen come out in the last 5 years have been published as executable files that are launched from DOS and can run from any DOS storage device. Examples: Yoomp, Crownland, FlowersMania, Knightlore, Beyond Evil, all of the XEGS supercart conversions that Fandal has done, all of the entrys/winners of any of the ABBUC programming contests... Plus, even for old games that were cartridge based, there is (more often than not) an executable version that was either released on disk, or has been since hacked by some pirate/coder.... The only games that cannot be launched from a hardisk are those that were either a)exclusively released on cartridge and never modified/hacked to run in dos executable form... or b)written as a sector-loading "NON-DOS" floppy disk and never converted to a DOS-friendly format.. Even with these, it is posible to make small hardisk partitions that "look like" a floppy and run the games that way, unless they employ copy-protection schemes or make very low-level calls to the SIO hardware to load, or are very disk-timing dependant... Lucasfilm disk-based games would be a good example of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Wow neat! I might have to get a MIO sometime in here if you ever decide to make more. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 Wow neat! I might have to get a MIO sometime in here if you ever decide to make more. Tempest If all you do is play games, I would HIGHLY RECCOMEND the MyIDE + Flash cartridge from http://www.atarimax.com. The MyIDE OS actually has a "disk image" system built into it that lets you instantly launch any game from the hardisk(or CF/IDE flash drive). Also, the flash portion of the cart can be used to put your favorite cart images. And it's the size of a normal atari cart, so it can easily be transferred between machines. If you put a 512meg transcend flash module on it, you can probably store about 75% of all the commercially released disk-based games ever made and instantly select them from a list to launch at power-up.. MyIDE + Flash cart = $50.00 Transcend Flash Drive = (about $30.00, depending on size) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 If all you do is play games, I would HIGHLY RECCOMEND the MyIDE + Flash cartridge from http://www.atarimax.com. Agreed. In my case though there's stuff I like to run that doesn't like the OS wedge (like Autoduel). And I like to use as original ATRs as I can get (not a hacked BIN fan), so it's SIO2SD or SIO2USB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Wow neat! I might have to get a MIO sometime in here if you ever decide to make more. Tempest If all you do is play games, I would HIGHLY RECCOMEND the MyIDE + Flash cartridge from http://www.atarimax.com. The MyIDE OS actually has a "disk image" system built into it that lets you instantly launch any game from the hardisk(or CF/IDE flash drive). Also, the flash portion of the cart can be used to put your favorite cart images. And it's the size of a normal atari cart, so it can easily be transferred between machines. If you put a 512meg transcend flash module on it, you can probably store about 75% of all the commercially released disk-based games ever made and instantly select them from a list to launch at power-up.. MyIDE + Flash cart = $50.00 Transcend Flash Drive = (about $30.00, depending on size) I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? It is very nearly completely different in method of operation. The Flash carts allow you to store executables in a selector menu and specially prepared 'whole disk' (takes entire cart space) stuff. MyIDE is an actual disk OS, and the MyIDE/flash cart is an IDE device adapter. So (with an IDE CF module stuck on top) it's the equivalent of a booting DOS with a HD attached to it. You can then load executables from command lines, menus, etc. and prepare special portions of the 'HD' to contain entire disk images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? It is very nearly completely different in method of operation. The Flash carts allow you to store executables in a selector menu and specially prepared 'whole disk' (takes entire cart space) stuff. MyIDE is an actual disk OS, and the MyIDE/flash cart is an IDE device adapter. So (with an IDE CF module stuck on top) it's the equivalent of a booting DOS with a HD attached to it. You can then load executables from command lines, menus, etc. and prepare special portions of the 'HD' to contain entire disk images. Is there any advantage to using the MyIDE/Flash cart over something like SIO2PC other than convenience? I have an SIO2PC device and using Atari810, I've been able to load just about everything. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+remowilliams Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Is there any advantage to using the MyIDE/Flash cart over something like SIO2PC other than convience? I have an SIO2PC device and using Atari810, I've been able to load just about everything. Main advantage probably would be you don't have to tether the A8 to a PC, which is quite important for some folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Hello guys You haven't really booted an Atari untill you've booted it from a hard disk drive. (Or a ZIPdrive or an Atari 8 bit boot CD/DVD.) It's WAY faster then SIO. And unless the software isn't compatible with PBI, all (non-protected) software should run. Greetings Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? Part of the MyIDE+1Mb Flash cartridge is exactly the same. Think of like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup-two great products in one. One is the Atarimax flash cartridge (like the 8Mb unit you already own) and the simple IDE interface that Mr.Atari created. Steve (Classics) has put both products together, which is great, because the MyIDE system requires you to load a replacement OS. This can be loaded from the cartridge into RAM in seconds. To get near 99% compatibility with games and other programs, you need to get the MyIDE OS on EPROM (not loaded into RAM). This means either burning an EPROM and replacing the original ROM OS, or installing something like Steve's other great product, the 32-in-1 Flash OS. Also, the MyIDE interface also comes in an internal version that is installed inside the computer and also has provision for a flashable OS. For maximum compatibility, the SIO2xxx devices will be the best, since from the Atari's point of view, they are just a regular disk drive. I'd rank the interfaces something like this (for compatibility with games): 1. SIO2SD, SIO2USB, SIO2IDE 2. MyIDE with EPROM based OS. 3. MyIDE with RAM based OS. 4. MIO (and probably other PBI-based HD interfaces) I'm not sure where the blackbox or KMK/JZ interfaces would fit in there since I don't own them or know that much about them. The lack of a selectable partition system for MIO is a downside (that seems to be on the roadmap thanks to Metalguy and Wererat!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cephallus Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? It is very nearly completely different in method of operation. The Flash carts allow you to store executables in a selector menu and specially prepared 'whole disk' (takes entire cart space) stuff. MyIDE is an actual disk OS, and the MyIDE/flash cart is an IDE device adapter. So (with an IDE CF module stuck on top) it's the equivalent of a booting DOS with a HD attached to it. You can then load executables from command lines, menus, etc. and prepare special portions of the 'HD' to contain entire disk images. Is there any advantage to using the MyIDE/Flash cart over something like SIO2PC other than convenience? I have an SIO2PC device and using Atari810, I've been able to load just about everything. Tempest I have an internal MyIDE installed in my 1200xl with CF->IDE installed in the rear of the case. I can pull the CF card out and use my PC to write HD images to it, or to transfer atr's to the disk image space. There are very easy to use PC tools for writing files to the MyIDE-formatted CF card. 256 meg CF cards are a dime a dozen now; with this sytem, you could keep several with different types of software handy...though to be honest, one provides more storage for me (I have it set up with 4 16mb hd images) that I'll probably ever use on my A8. The big advantage is that I can take my 1200xl out of the closet and plug it in to the svideo/audio cables I keep tucked behind my TV and the 9v PS, and I'm up and running with any of the hundreds of apps I have on the CF card. No other cables, or space, required. I'm working on finishing my portable screen mod, so I'll truly have a 'laptop' useable 1200xl. Edited October 1, 2008 by cephallus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Exactly what use are hard drives on an 8-bit? I've always been curious about this (I'm not saying that they aren't useful, I just don't know). Also, what do people use their MIO's for today? I suppose a big RAM Disk with hard drives would be nice for running a BBS on actual hardware (as you said), but what else? Are people still doing serious computing with their 8-bits that requires something like a MIO or is it more a 'just because you can' type of thing? I pretty much only use mine for games these days. Tempest I guess at this point I am a collector and most of this stuff is nostalgic to me. Atari 800 was my first personal computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Hello guys You haven't really booted an Atari untill you've booted it from a hard disk drive. (Or a ZIPdrive or an Atari 8 bit boot CD/DVD.) It's WAY faster then SIO. And unless the software isn't compatible with PBI, all (non-protected) software should run. Greetings Mathy Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEtalGuy66 Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 I have the 8MB Flash Cart from Atarimax, which I'll admit I haven't had time to play with. How is this different? Part of the MyIDE+1Mb Flash cartridge is exactly the same. Think of like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup-two great products in one. One is the Atarimax flash cartridge (like the 8Mb unit you already own) and the simple IDE interface that Mr.Atari created. Steve (Classics) has put both products together, which is great, because the MyIDE system requires you to load a replacement OS. This can be loaded from the cartridge into RAM in seconds. To get near 99% compatibility with games and other programs, you need to get the MyIDE OS on EPROM (not loaded into RAM). This means either burning an EPROM and replacing the original ROM OS, or installing something like Steve's other great product, the 32-in-1 Flash OS. Also, the MyIDE interface also comes in an internal version that is installed inside the computer and also has provision for a flashable OS. For maximum compatibility, the SIO2xxx devices will be the best, since from the Atari's point of view, they are just a regular disk drive. I'd rank the interfaces something like this (for compatibility with games): 1. SIO2SD, SIO2USB, SIO2IDE 2. MyIDE with EPROM based OS. 3. MyIDE with RAM based OS. 4. MIO (and probably other PBI-based HD interfaces) I'm not sure where the blackbox or KMK/JZ interfaces would fit in there since I don't own them or know that much about them. The lack of a selectable partition system for MIO is a downside (that seems to be on the roadmap thanks to Metalguy and Wererat!). Pfft... MyIDE is MORE compatable than PBI interfaces? Thats rediculously wrong.. The cart/ROM OS version is more CONVENIENT for games, yes... Because it has the built in disk image launcher.. Requiring the OS to be patched in a non-standard way is a "hack" at best.. It's fast, cheap, and convenient for software that happens to work with it. PBI devices do not make your ATARI incompatable with any software.. There may be technical reasons why you can not boot some software FROM a particular PBI device, but at least you dont have to REMOVE the device ( Or even worse, switch out the OS ROM) to get the software to even run, as is the case with some software and the MyIDE.. If all you want to do is play games, the MyIDE is a great choice because it is cheap, simple, and it provides a system patched into your OS for actually launching disk images... It is not in any way shape or form a viable "power user" oriented hardisk system. It does not conform to any sort of standard for expansion devices, and therefore, you cant expect all software to work on it.. I used to build the internal MyIDE board for Mr. Atari.. One of the reasons I stopped was because I could not do what I wanted with any machine that had MyIDE ROMs installed.. And it got to be too much of a pain in the ass to continue building a product that I, myself wouldnt bastardize one of my own machines with.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I suppose the MyIDE cartridge is great for people who just want to have everything in one cartridge, but since my Atari sits right next to my PC, the SIO2PC cable I use works just fine for everything I want to do. In the future if I move my Atari to the basement or I get that Mac I've had my eye on, I may have to reconsider. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cephallus Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I suppose the MyIDE cartridge is great for people who just want to have everything in one cartridge, but since my Atari sits right next to my PC, the SIO2PC cable I use works just fine for everything I want to do. In the future if I move my Atari to the basement or I get that Mac I've had my eye on, I may have to reconsider. Tempest There is software to use the sio2pc with the Mac as well... Haha, Metalguy, that's a little harsh. I definitely do more than play games on my A8, though I'm not sure what a "power user" of the A8 even means at this point in time. I can program in macro assembler, use several music composition apps that work flawlessly, and save everything to a HD image that I can then back up from the CF card using a two-line batch script on my Mac. Compared with what's available for the c64 in this area, I definitely feel like a "power user" on my A8! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I suppose the MyIDE cartridge is great for people who just want to have everything in one cartridge, but since my Atari sits right next to my PC, the SIO2PC cable I use works just fine for everything I want to do. In the future if I move my Atari to the basement or I get that Mac I've had my eye on, I may have to reconsider. Tempest Why? I have the SIO2PC(MAC) set-up with my Mac. It works great the SIO2OSX program. Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I suppose the MyIDE cartridge is great for people who just want to have everything in one cartridge, but since my Atari sits right next to my PC, the SIO2PC cable I use works just fine for everything I want to do. In the future if I move my Atari to the basement or I get that Mac I've had my eye on, I may have to reconsider. Tempest Why? I have the SIO2PC(MAC) set-up with my Mac. It works great the SIO2OSX program. Allan I wasn't aware there was Mac software for this, sweet! Like I said, I use Atari810 because it works and it's free but sadly it's XP only. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belboz Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 If anyone with a Mac who knows their way around the command line wants to test some OSX SIO2PC software I wrote that is compatible with USB->Serial FTDI based chipsets, drop me a PM. I have yet to finish the software but it works now, and I also want to toss a GUI on it at some point. Goal is to release it for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+poobah Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 If anyone with a Mac who knows their way around the command line wants to test some OSX SIO2PC software I wrote that is compatible with USB->Serial FTDI based chipsets, drop me a PM. I have yet to finish the software but it works now, and I also want to toss a GUI on it at some point. Goal is to release it for free. I just happen to have an FTDI based USB to serial cable and a Mac Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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