ROM limitations?

[82-T/A]

Hey guys,

 

It occured to me that with the really low price of RAM as it is, why are we limited to 2, 4, 8 etc... meg carts? I've got a 1 gig USB flash drive that I paid like... $30 bucks for... why can't we simply adapt that technology on a printed circuit board? I know that CDs are dirt cheap, and are the medium of choice for most developers since you have plenty of room... but I can't imagine that a cartridge is that much more. With the way the world is today, it should be pretty inexpensive to have several circuit boards printed up and plastic molds made. I'm just guess as I haven't tried. But I know there are places that will fabricate metal hardware for you. You send them an AutoCAD file of the device, and they make it out of metal for you (using a CNC machine). There's got to be something similar to make cartridge cases....

[+Sauron]

The Jag is currently limited to the old cart size restrictions simply because no newer cart technology has been put into practice for the Jag. I know that someone was talking about making some kind of flash memory media some time ago, but I have no idea if this has been put into practice or not. It'd be nice to see, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Fredifredo]

the limitation for normal ( without hardware ) carts is 6 MB

but there are only 1,2 and 4 MB games !

[+doctorclu]

I am starting to wonder, with all the amazing things going on for the Atari 8-bit, 5200, and Coleco Vision at Atari Max...

 

http://www.atarimax.com

 

...If in time if something would not be possible for the Atari Jaguar.

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/documentation/

 

These flash carts are able to run rom images, or floppy disk images. They are really neat, I have owned a 1 meg flash cart before, and it really simple to use. All you had to do was plug in the cart, and then bring up a image that was created for the cart by either a computer connection (SIO2PC) with the Atari 8-bit computer, or by using a floppy disk. It boots the computer up, asks if you want to write an image, and from there, writes to the cartridge. After that, you have a continual cartridge with that game or utility till you write over it. Wonderful device!

 

For the Jaguar, I wonder first off if the Jag cart port would be able to write to a catridge like that (Voltage and all that). The fact that we have the memory cart with game saves and memory saves on various games seems to suggest so.

 

So how would you start up a image? Several ways I can think of. Not original ones either.

 

JUGS

BJL

image for Jag CD module.

 

In all three cases it would pull up a simple file (since the resident memory on the Jag is under 2 meg and most cart images are larger) to acknowlegde that a flash cart is plugged in and if you want to program it. After saying yes, the program would pull information from the CD or from a computer through JUGS or BJL, and flash the cart. After that, you would have the image on the cart till you wrote over it again.

 

Like the Atarimax carts, you could in theory have a cart that would be menu driven, allowing multiple rom images to be selected.

 

As for CD images, you could make a large enough flash cart to hold a CD image. Or in those cases, this flash cart could have a cable going from the cart where it could access CD images from another source. At that point, you could break the 700 meg barrier of the CD technology and be limited to whatever hard drive you were working with. (This would be great for cinepak movie files for example).

 

So with one cart you could have a flash and CD interface, (and a great way to pull in information from a host computer.)

 

To matter the fact, if you had the cable coming out of the cartridge itself you would technically not need the BJL or JUGS setup, but could pull straight in from a host computer. But it would be nice to have a CD setup in case you wanted to load a image without hooking up a computer.

 

-- The crazy but not so crazy idea... a Jaguar Hard drive --

 

Of course if we wanted to have a LOT of fun, we could take a page from the MyIde technology of the 8-bits and have a hard drive hooked directly to the Jag. Make it where the cart brings up the directory on a IDE drive that is connected to the Jag. CD images could be stored to the hard drive in a format similiar to the movie files that are simply tracks stored to a much larger media. And rom images could be stored on the hard drive similar to the disk image selector that the MyIde also uses. In that image selector you use a controller to select and load an image.

 

-- To summarize --

 

So in the end as I see it, you could have a flash ram cart that could be programmed by a CD image, BJL, or JUGS, similar to the flash carts on AtariMax.

 

Or, you could have a harddrive system that would be standing to work directly through the cartridge port. The information would be stored on the hard drive, and to execute that information, it would simply write to what I would imagine would be a static ram cartridge. This would effectively turn the Jaguar into the typical computer scenario of ... load a game, play it, turn computer off, game is gone till loaded again.

 

As for the static ram cart in the cartridge port of the Jaguar that is being addressed.. will it be 4 meg? 6 meg? Or more? What is the real limit of the Jaguar hardware?

 

All this to say, let's take a moment and look at what is already happening in the Atari 8-bit world and see if this concept could be adapted here.

[Matthias]

Hello Doc,

 

 

i think most of what you are describing is (or will be) available on the CompactFlash-cartridge which is discussed since some months. And just yesterday i have uploaded a standard 4MB-cartridge ROM to my own FLASH-card design from a CD (yeah, i know, i failed to release the card), so as you say, the technical problems are solvable (even by dilettantes like me).

The question is, which goal should be reached by creating a "FLASH-device"? Is it just the emulation of a real cartridge as the original Atari FLASH and Alpine-cards already do? Or wouldn't it be better to add new features, something which is done by the CompactFlash-design? As far as i know it doesn't emulate a (Atari-style) 4MB-cartridge, but offers new options with it's RAM, the PS/2-ports for keyboard+mouse and the CompactFlash itself (Which is like a harddisc, but detachable and can be filled on your Internet-PC).

 

 

Regards

Matthias

[+doctorclu]

Hello Doc,

 

 

i think most of what you are describing is (or will be) available on the CompactFlash-cartridge which is discussed since some months. And just yesterday i have uploaded a standard 4MB-cartridge ROM to my own FLASH-card design from a CD (yeah, i know, i failed to release the card), so as you say, the technical problems are solvable (even by dilettantes like me).

 

Yeh that card of yours and all that was being done with the ethernet and Contiki was just awesome. Glad to know it is still being tinkered with somewhat.

 

The question is, which goal should be reached by creating a "FLASH-device"? Is it just the emulation of a real cartridge as the original Atari FLASH and Alpine-cards already do? Or wouldn't it be better to add new features, something which is done by the CompactFlash-design? As far as i know it doesn't emulate a (Atari-style) 4MB-cartridge, but offers new options with it's RAM, the PS/2-ports for keyboard+mouse and the CompactFlash itself (Which is like a harddisc, but detachable and can be filled on your Internet-PC).

 

You speak of flash and alpine cards like they are quickly available. They are not. They are hard to find and expensive.

 

Sure I would like to see upgrades to the Jag, but to be honest for trying out cartridge images of prototypes (like Arena Football which was just released on JS2), I would like a device that can play those images.

 

I'd like to have 30 games in one cartridge. Or my entire library. That would be cool. I would like a device that could play CD images and not have to use my 2x Jag CD unit.

 

And while I will probably pick up one these extra ram, keyboard/mouse thingies you talk about, inside I am saying "Well, if it doesn't do existing Atari formats, what is the point?"

 

It might as well be the ST emulation module, or some other platform, because it won't be a Jag then. And coming from the ST realm and other platforms, there is nothing worse that taking an aging platform and splitting the format down the middle. In the ST we have the joys on that dimenishing platform of having the MintOS, MagicOS, TOS, and Linux users. yah.

 

So based on that, forgive me that I do not jump for joy that the Jaguar may be inheriting development on a device "That will not support Jaguar programs".

[Goochman]

Ive asked about CD replacements before and due to some custom hardware it would be very difficult to replace the Jag CD with some other device to play the CD games.

 

The CF Jag cart coming out *could* handle normal carts but is not being released with the capability to restrict piracy.

 

A USB loaded multicart would be awesome.........

[+doctorclu]

Ive asked about CD replacements before and due to some custom hardware it would be very difficult to replace the Jag CD with some other device to play the CD games.

 

The CF Jag cart coming out *could* handle normal carts but is not being released with the capability to restrict piracy.

 

A USB loaded multicart would be awesome.........

 

I've been round and round on this already.

 

Most Jag fans out there WANT to eventually get all the cartridges, games, and assessories for bragging rights. I know I do. There are times when images come up to "try out" and it would be nice have something that could play them. (Cart images, the ones that will not play on JUGS, BJL, and other loaders like that).

 

If anything, when you look at the Cuttle Cart for the 2600 & 7800 and the image loaders for the Atari 8-bit and 5200.. those have probably inspired people to buy MORE games. Sure they play rom images off the internet. Sure they have multicarts, but then they get hooked on a game they would not have tried otherwise, and they buy a copy when it comes available.

 

Really, making image loading would only help, not hurt.

[Goochman]

Im with you clu

[Matthias]

Hello Doc!

 

Hello Doc,

The question is, which goal should be reached by creating a "FLASH-device"? Is it just the emulation of a real cartridge as the original Atari FLASH and Alpine-cards already do? Or wouldn't it be better to add new features, something which is done by the CompactFlash-design? As far as i know it doesn't emulate a (Atari-style) 4MB-cartridge, but offers new options with it's RAM, the PS/2-ports for keyboard+mouse and the CompactFlash itself (Which is like a harddisc, but detachable and can be filled on your Internet-PC).

 

You speak of flash and alpine cards like they are quickly available. They are not. They are hard to find and expensive.

 

But at least they are somewhere out there, unlike all these "wouldn't it be cool if" and "in development" cards

 

 

Sure I would like to see upgrades to the Jag, but to be honest for trying out cartridge images of prototypes (like Arena Football which was just released on JS2), I would like a device that can play those images.

 

I'd like to have 30 games in one cartridge. Or my entire library. That would be cool. I would like a device that could play CD images and not have to use my 2x Jag CD unit.

 

 

So you want basically an Atari-style FLASH-card, perhaps enhanced to offer multiple banks,

and with a state-of-the-art PC-connection (if possible) just to play the existing ROM-images. Ok.

 

But i think you can forget about the CD-player emulation, as said elsewhere this is probably a too complex problem.

 

 

 

Best regards

Matthias

[Matthias]

Hello Goochman!

 

Ive asked about CD replacements before and due to some custom hardware it would be very difficult to replace the Jag CD with some other device to play the CD games.

 

Fortunately the communication with the CD-player is usually done via the CD-BIOS, this small bunch of software-routines

is installed into the Jaguar's RAM when the Jaguar boots, so it is possible to replace it with a version for an "CD-player-emulation"-device, implementing the reading of data-tracks should be easy to implement, playing

Audio-tracks or Cinepak-movie-tracks could require more work.

 

Regards

Matthias

[+doctorclu]

Hello Doc!

 

But i think you can forget about the CD-player emulation, as said elsewhere this is probably a too complex problem.

 

Best regards

Matthias

 

Well, you have made a flash cart so have a good grasp to that say that.

 

But something has me scratching my head... what if a Jaguar could access a hard drive much like the MyIde interface? To me the way the MyIde reads movie files, and how the CD roms pulls its information seems similar. Well, as Spock would say "Deserves further investigation Captain."

[Matthias]

Hi!

 

Hello Doc!

 

But i think you can forget about the CD-player emulation, as said elsewhere this is probably a too complex problem.

 

Best regards

Matthias

 

Well, you have made a flash cart so have a good grasp to that say that.

 

But something has me scratching my head... what if a Jaguar could access a hard drive much like the MyIde interface? To me the way the MyIde reads movie files, and how the CD roms pulls its information seems similar. Well, as Spock would say "Deserves further investigation Captain."

 

Hmm, but this exactly what you will get with the CompactFlash-card: A generic mass-storage device.

But you said you want to play CD-images, which the CF-card will not do (AFAIK), as it doesn't emulate neither a normal cartridge nor the CD-player.

 

Regards

Matthias