God, I love cartridges!

[supercat]

I'll admit I'm a lot more partial to CDs than I ever will be to carts. Durability no load blah blah blah. I got sick of cleaning carts in a hurry which is largley why I try not to collect for cart based systems.

 

Why don't optical media use jackets like 3.5" floppies? True, a CD or DVD is not as fragile as would be a bare floppy disk, but they'd be a lot more durable than they are now.

[shadow460]

Yeah, they used to use 'em, but for some reason they stopped.

Actually, no. StupidDisks are part optical, and they have a jacket.

[JB]

I'll admit I'm a lot more partial to CDs than I ever will be to carts. Durability no load blah blah blah. I got sick of cleaning carts in a hurry which is largley why I try not to collect for cart based systems.

 

Why don't optical media use jackets like 3.5" floppies? True, a CD or DVD is not as fragile as would be a bare floppy disk, but they'd be a lot more durable than they are now.

Cost.

That's the entire reason.

 

MiniDisk and DVD-RAM both made it to market with a caddy as part of the disk packaging. It was subsequently removed from DVD-RAM because people whined about it, even though the disks aren't durable enough to be left exposed, making MiniDisk the only rationally constructed optical media.

Pity Sony never pushed it as a floppy disk replacement. Even with the original capacity of 150 MB or whatever it was, it stompled floppies. The modern 1 GB MDs would be just awesome.

[rockman_x_2002]

Actually the way I see it, since the advent of the USB flash drives, memory sticks / cards, and other media along those lines, I feel like there's great potential for using that kind of media in substitute for CD or DVDs. In fact if you look at the Nintendo DS (and all previous Nintendo handhelds), none of them have used disc-based media of any kind.

 

Consider: Flash media (collectively, all the aforementioned devices) can store any type of file. This includes music, video, artwork, code, etc., just as a CD, DVD, or hard drive can. The sizes of flash media are growing by leaps and bounds (a 2GB memory stick or SD card is not all that uncommon anymore), and they're becoming much more affordable than ever before, far eclipsing the size of a single CD and approaching quite rapidly the sizes of DVDs. This means that cartridges (or in this case, flash media) are not limited by memory size or speed. Flash media provides fast to no load times, plus the ability to hold nearly as much, or equally as much, as a disc... ideal for gaming systems. Also, comparing physical size, flash media is much smaller than discs, and almost as thin. Another big plus.

 

For these reasons, I propose that, as flash memory comes closer in size to DVDs, game companies may in the future abandon disc-based media in favor for flash media (albeit a proprietary "read-only" type media or at least limited in how things can be recorded to it, such as game saves). So in a sense, I see a return to cartridge based media, in some form, although the cartridges may not take the form as in times past. They'll simply be modified, proprietary flash media. In a way we have already seen this with the Nintendo DS. So it wouldn't surprise me to see later on the same flash media flow right on over into "at-home" game consoles as well.

[JB]

Consider: Flash media ... are becoming much more affordable than ever before, far eclipsing the size of a single CD and approaching quite rapidly the sizes of DVDs.

Size and cost are not directly related across media.

2 gigs of flash RAM costs several dollars at the manufacturing level.

2 gigs of optical disk costs a few pennies at the same level.

 

Of course, cost of silicon varies a lot more. If you're making a DVD, the cost is the same from 1 byte on up to... I think 4.5 GB is the limit for a single-layer disk. Silicon has a lot more shades of gray.

 

 

And then there's programming costs.

A CD is easy. Stamp it and go.

Flash RAM has to be connected and written electrically, as do PROMs, Flash ROMs, EPROMs, etc. The only "stamp it and go" silicon is mask ROMs, which are still far more expensive to produce than CDs and DVDs(much more elaborate "stamping" process).

 

 

Flash RAM is also more expensive than other types of silicon, such as the traditional EPROM. At least, as far as I know.

 

This means that cartridges (or in this case, flash media) are not limited by memory size or speed.

Provided you're willing to pay two hundred dollars a game, this is true.

 

Flash media provides fast to no load times, plus the ability to hold nearly as much, or equally as much, as a disc... ideal for gaming systems.

Again, for a price.

People are throwing hissyfits about the 60$ XBox 360 games. You expect them to eat the costs of silicon media?

We already did this with the N64. It didn't fly then, either.

[Rik]

Yes, i love cartridges also,as i beleive they are the most durable format for video games,I doubt you'll see many of those new fancy cd-rom games playable in the next 20-30 years like game carts are now playable,one deep enough scratch,thats it.In all my 300+ cartridges,none have gone bad,and ive never had a non-working cartridge!----yet,Technology is great,to bad it never works half the time,and i dont fall for everynew gadget that comes out,if i spent all my money on all the new gadgets,id have nothing left for retirement!cell phones,i-pods i this i that,its ridiculous,i still use dial up $50.00 plus for cable?,yeah right,i might just order bed springs in my coffin when i pre pay for my funeral,i want to be comfortable.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Rik

[supercat]

Flash RAM is also more expensive than other types of silicon, such as the traditional EPROM. At least, as far as I know.

 

There are two types of flash: NAND flash and NOR flash. NOR flash is randomly-addressible and is indeed more expensive than OTPROM. NAND flash is only block-addressible, but is the cheapest form of silicon-based memory around. For anything other than direct code execution, NAND flash is the way to go. I would expect it should be possible to produce a masked version of NAND flash; not sure how much cost that would save, but it would be a more permanent medium.

 

People are throwing hissyfits about the 60$ XBox 360 games. You expect them to eat the costs of silicon media?

We already did this with the N64. It didn't fly then, either.

 

I've seen USB memory sticks for $30/gig. Solid state games couldn't be as big as DVD-based ones, but if programmers were pushed to save space they probably could. Note that disk-loaded games often have a lot of redundancy that solid-state ones wouldn't have to, so 1GB of memory may hold the equivalent of 2-4GB of disk data.

[kevincal]

There's just something about being able to actually handle a game that I just love. It's something you can't get with a CD-type game, just a cartridge.

 

And, oh, the variety! From the standard 2600 cart, to the big side-ridged 5200 carts, to the eloquent-in-its-simplicity Genesis carts, to the Asian-influenced Jaguar carts... I just love 'em.

 

Last night I brought home a Sonic & Knuckles cart that I found for $2.50 at a game exchange shop. A pretty neat cart with the lock-on gimmick. It had two stickers on it, a price tag that came off easily, and some sort of security tag on the back that left tons of sticky residue. I enjoyed taking the time to clean it and remove all that goo. It took time and effort, but I actually enjoyed it... am I sick or something? I just like rescuing stuff like this and cleaning it up.

 

Sometimes, just looking at and handling the 5200 carts makes me want to play. And with S&K and Sonic 3, I think I may take the time to play through that game for the first time!

 

That is so weird you mentioned you liked cleaning up carts that had stickers on them etc. as I was thinking of making a thread just about that...lol. Infact just today I got a package with a variety of games, many cartridge and many stickers to remove. I don't have the patience to remove ALL of the sticky residue on some of them as in some cases that crap is just ON there...Have you ever seen a Neo Geo cartridge in person? They are about the size of a slim PS2!!! I'm not kidding you, they are the Grandaddy of cartridges...bar none. I have 10 of them!

[JB]

Flash RAM is also more expensive than other types of silicon, such as the traditional EPROM. At least, as far as I know.

 

There are two types of flash: NAND flash and NOR flash. NOR flash is randomly-addressible and is indeed more expensive than OTPROM. NAND flash is only block-addressible, but is the cheapest form of silicon-based memory around. For anything other than direct code execution, NAND flash is the way to go. I would expect it should be possible to produce a masked version of NAND flash; not sure how much cost that would save, but it would be a more permanent medium.

Thank you.

 

People are throwing hissyfits about the 60$ XBox 360 games. You expect them to eat the costs of silicon media?

We already did this with the N64. It didn't fly then, either.

 

I've seen USB memory sticks for $30/gig. Solid state games couldn't be as big as DVD-based ones, but if programmers were pushed to save space they probably could. Note that disk-loaded games often have a lot of redundancy that solid-state ones wouldn't have to, so 1GB of memory may hold the equivalent of 2-4GB of disk data.

But it's still dollars VS pennies.

There's no reason for manufacturers to want to give up the ease of production and massive profit margins on optical disks.

 

 

 

I'm not a great fan of disks myself.

But realistically, distributing games on silicon is dead outside of Nintendo portables. And I'm pretty sure that's for battery life concern more than anything else.

[Flojomojo]

Yeah, i'm with you on this one brother. I am none to thrilled with the whole trend of non-gtangible media. Its the reason i won't own a TIVO.

Snuh? the whole point of Tivo is to time-shift disposable media on TV that you watch once, then forget about it. As much as I like owning DVDs of movies and TV series that I really care about, I certainly can't watch it all, even if I wanted to keep it. There's a reason you can't buy DVDs of the News Hour or Jeopardy.

 

Not everything needs to be "owned" to be enjoyed or valued.

[Brian R.]

There's just something about being able to actually handle a game that I just love. It's something you can't get with a CD-type game, just a cartridge.

 

And, oh, the variety! From the standard 2600 cart, to the big side-ridged 5200 carts, to the eloquent-in-its-simplicity Genesis carts, to the Asian-influenced Jaguar carts... I just love 'em.

 

Last night I brought home a Sonic & Knuckles cart that I found for $2.50 at a game exchange shop. A pretty neat cart with the lock-on gimmick. It had two stickers on it, a price tag that came off easily, and some sort of security tag on the back that left tons of sticky residue. I enjoyed taking the time to clean it and remove all that goo. It took time and effort, but I actually enjoyed it... am I sick or something? I just like rescuing stuff like this and cleaning it up.

 

Sometimes, just looking at and handling the 5200 carts makes me want to play. And with S&K and Sonic 3, I think I may take the time to play through that game for the first time!

 

That is so weird you mentioned you liked cleaning up carts that had stickers on them etc. as I was thinking of making a thread just about that...lol. Infact just today I got a package with a variety of games, many cartridge and many stickers to remove. I don't have the patience to remove ALL of the sticky residue on some of them as in some cases that crap is just ON there...Have you ever seen a Neo Geo cartridge in person? They are about the size of a slim PS2!!! I'm not kidding you, they are the Grandaddy of cartridges...bar none. I have 10 of them!

 

Can't say I have. I googled it, but it's hard to tell the size by a picture with no point of reference.

 

I guess they're even bigger than the 5200 carts, huh?

 

Simple Green did a good job of removing sticker residue. And there are products made specifically for removing this kind of stuff, although I'd be careful about getting any of it on labels, as it would probably destroy them.

 

For some sticker residue, like the sale price tag on my cart and the residue sometimes left by DVD seals, I've found using the sticker or seal itself, or just a piece of scotch tape, can take the residue off.

[JB]

Can't say I have. I googled it, but it's hard to tell the size by a picture with no point of reference.

 

I guess they're even bigger than the 5200 carts, huh?

Definitely.

I was rummaging measurements up a while back, and if I recall, the NeoGeo deck is about the same width as a 5200 deck. From photos, you can tell that a NG cart is most of the deck width. That's a big cart.

[kevincal]

I'll get a reference pic or 2 of the Neo Geo cart up here in awhile.

[kevincal]

So here's a scan comparing a Neo Geo AES cart to an NES cart. The scan doesn't show that the Neo cart is twice as thick as the NES cart. Also, I'd guess the Neo cart weighs atleast 7 times more than an NES cart...

 

Ok, I added a couple more. The second scan compares a Neo cart to a GB Advance cart...Pretty staggering isn't it? The third compares your normal sized DVD game box and a Neo Box. These 2 didn't quite fit on the scanner...

Edited August 3, 2006 by kevincal

[Video]

Actually the way I see it, since the advent of the USB flash drives, memory sticks / cards, and other media along those lines, I feel like there's great potential for using that kind of media in substitute for CD or DVDs. In fact if you look at the Nintendo DS (and all previous Nintendo handhelds), none of them have used disc-based media of any kind.

 

Consider: Flash media (collectively, all the aforementioned devices) can store any type of file. This includes music, video, artwork, code, etc., just as a CD, DVD, or hard drive can. The sizes of flash media are growing by leaps and bounds (a 2GB memory stick or SD card is not all that uncommon anymore), and they're becoming much more affordable than ever before, far eclipsing the size of a single CD and approaching quite rapidly the sizes of DVDs. This means that cartridges (or in this case, flash media) are not limited by memory size or speed. Flash media provides fast to no load times, plus the ability to hold nearly as much, or equally as much, as a disc... ideal for gaming systems. Also, comparing physical size, flash media is much smaller than discs, and almost as thin. Another big plus.

 

For these reasons, I propose that, as flash memory comes closer in size to DVDs, game companies may in the future abandon disc-based media in favor for flash media (albeit a proprietary "read-only" type media or at least limited in how things can be recorded to it, such as game saves). So in a sense, I see a return to cartridge based media, in some form, although the cartridges may not take the form as in times past. They'll simply be modified, proprietary flash media. In a way we have already seen this with the Nintendo DS. So it wouldn't surprise me to see later on the same flash media flow right on over into "at-home" game consoles as well.

 

That's one of the things I"ve been saying for years, yes, at the moment, Carts will cost more than Optical media. But it's getting cheaper. It'll never be as cheap as optical media, but if I have a choice between getting a game on a disc, or a cart for a few bucks more, then I'll take the cart. More reliable, less load time, durability, etc.

 

Now people always say that CD/s hold more data than carts...well, that's true, one CD/DVD useualy holds more data than one Cart. But think about the size difference. Take a DVD, 4.5 GB of space. Now, that's 5 and a quarter inches across. Then you take SD Memory cards At roughly 1x1.5 inches, and the same thickness as a typical DVD, you can fit roughly 5x4 carts in the same space a DVD takes up. If you have the cheap (they pretty much give them away at this point) 250MB cards, you have 5 GB of storage, in the same ammount of space. Care to bump that up to 1GB cards (which can be had for a little under $50 at this point, but in a few years will be the freeby carts given away with digital gadgets in the place of 250 cards) And all of a sudden, you have 20 GB of storage, in roughly the same space as a typical DVD. Now, 2 GB cards are expensive at $70-$80, but that doubles the storage to 40 GB, and you CAN for quiet a heafty price, close to $200, I think get 4 GB cards, and that would give you 80GB storage in the same space as a typical DVD.

 

Now in a few years, say probably 2010 or 2012, even the 8 GB cards will be very cheap, offering 160 GB in the same space as a DVD, and they'll be very cheaply. Of course, by then, Blue Ray, or HDD will have a firm foothold at around 50 GB, but for the ammount of space, SD will still hold more data. And just because Games and Movies can take more data, doesn't necessarily mean they should, or will, so the smaller SD media may take off.

 

So will we see a return of carts? That depends on if there's a viable market for non existant Downloadable media rather than Hard media. If the DL flops, or at least is slow to catch on, then I fully believe we'll see cart based consoles come out again.

 

Of course, what I'm really waiting for, is a truly dockable handheld that is escentually a console, so you can play on the go, or go hook it up to the big screen and play with a friend. Yeah, don't think that'll happen. But truely, as long as portable systems are around, there'll probably always be a cart media on at least one handheld. AFter all, I'm sure UMD isn't any cheaper for PSP than the specialty Compact flash is for DS, it actually uses more materials, though the disc is more easily printed to offset that slightly.

 

So here's a scan comparing a Neo Geo AES cart to an NES cart. The scan doesn't show that the Neo cart is twice as thick as the NES cart. Also, I'd guess the Neo cart weighs atleast 7 times more than an NES cart...

 

Ok, I added a couple more. The second scan compares a Neo cart to a GB Advance cart...Pretty staggering isn't it? The third compares your normal sized DVD game box and a Neo Box. These 2 didn't quite fit on the scanner...

 

In your second picture, you ought to have a DS game there also, it's half the size of GBA carts, about.

[kevincal]

Wish I had a DS and some games...

[rockman_x_2002]

That's one of the things I"ve been saying for years, yes, at the moment, Carts will cost more than Optical media. But it's getting cheaper. It'll never be as cheap as optical media, but if I have a choice between getting a game on a disc, or a cart for a few bucks more, then I'll take the cart. More reliable, less load time, durability, etc.

 

Yes. Yes, my sentiments exactly. I think this is where my point gets lost because I didn't state it clearly before or it got lost in the shuffle of explanation:

 

Cartridges on flash media would be expensive for this generation and the next generation... but as prices decline we will go from comparing dollars to pennies, to comparing pennies to pennies.

 

It is at this time (and not a moment before) that we could potentially see cartridges return, provided that, as Video states, downloadable games don't take off. I don't believe they will because while a good majority of people are on the Internet, not everyone is. And even of all those that are on the Internet, not all are on high speed connections capable of downloading huge games via an Internet connection (such as myself... I'm forced to use dial-up).

[shadow460]

Dude, you could cold cok someone with that cartridge. SMB3 is not exactly small, either.

 

The heaviest cart I've got is Majora's Mask. Are the Neo Geo games heavier than that?

[supercat]

That's one of the things I"ve been saying for years, yes, at the moment, Carts will cost more than Optical media. But it's getting cheaper. It'll never be as cheap as optical media, but if I have a choice between getting a game on a disc, or a cart for a few bucks more, then I'll take the cart. More reliable, less load time, durability, etc.

 

A lot of games spend a lot of their space on cut scenes, probably because there's not really a whole lot else one can do with so many gigs of data; further, games tend to be highly episodic, with time being divided between playing and loading. Using solid-state media, it would be possible to have a larger "continuous" universe; even if it wasn't all in RAM at once, solid-state media would allow loading of extended sections during play to be handled more transparently than is typically currently the case.

[shadow460]

I know I've mentioned before that there are games out there that are constantly loading. While you play one level, they load the next. I think I may have a couple like that. I know Shining the Holy Ark loads once at the beginning and that's pretty much it. It will still load in short bursts, but for the most part, whatever scene is next will be available to the player within a second or two.

Instead of using all the available RAM to load the current level, perhaps some of it could hold the first few steps of the next level. When that level is first accessed, it would load fully into RAM while you're taking the first few steps. For example, if I was fighting the Midgar Zolom, the first screen of the Mythril Mine could be loaded into the PSX memory. Once I go into the Mythril mine, that screen appears instantly, the PSX forgets the Zolom, and replaces that with the Turks.

This applies to carts, too. Any Goldeneye player knows that some carts have to load, too.

Edited August 4, 2006 by shadow460

[kevincal]

Dude, you could cold cok someone with that cartridge. SMB3 is not exactly small, either.

 

The heaviest cart I've got is Majora's Mask. Are the Neo Geo games heavier than that?

 

I have Majora's Mask as well. A Neo Geo cart is about 4 times heavier than that Majora's Mask cart. They are heavy. They have TWO big/heavy chip boards in each cart. You honestly could hurt someone pretty bad with a Neo Geo cart. Although you'd have to be pretty stupid to do so, as the cheapest ones are $10-20 even.

[pocketmego]

Actually the way I see it, since the advent of the USB flash drives, memory sticks / cards, and other media along those lines, I feel like there's great potential for using that kind of media in substitute for CD or DVDs. In fact if you look at the Nintendo DS (and all previous Nintendo handhelds), none of them have used disc-based media of any kind.

 

Consider: Flash media (collectively, all the aforementioned devices) can store any type of file. This includes music, video, artwork, code, etc., just as a CD, DVD, or hard drive can. The sizes of flash media are growing by leaps and bounds (a 2GB memory stick or SD card is not all that uncommon anymore), and they're becoming much more affordable than ever before, far eclipsing the size of a single CD and approaching quite rapidly the sizes of DVDs. This means that cartridges (or in this case, flash media) are not limited by memory size or speed. Flash media provides fast to no load times, plus the ability to hold nearly as much, or equally as much, as a disc... ideal for gaming systems. Also, comparing physical size, flash media is much smaller than discs, and almost as thin. Another big plus.

 

For these reasons, I propose that, as flash memory comes closer in size to DVDs, game companies may in the future abandon disc-based media in favor for flash media (albeit a proprietary "read-only" type media or at least limited in how things can be recorded to it, such as game saves). So in a sense, I see a return to cartridge based media, in some form, although the cartridges may not take the form as in times past. They'll simply be modified, proprietary flash media. In a way we have already seen this with the Nintendo DS. So it wouldn't surprise me to see later on the same flash media flow right on over into "at-home" game consoles as well.

 

 

I totally agree with you and I can easily see the next evolution of the PSP going in this direction and possibly the PS3 if this Blue Ray thing explodes in Sony's face as I personally believe it might.

 

We have made so many FAST leaps in computer storage devices in just the last few years that it is UNreal.

 

-Ray

[Flojomojo]

I know I've mentioned before that there are games out there that are constantly loading. While you play one level, they load the next. I think I may have a couple like that. I know Shining the Holy Ark loads once at the beginning and that's pretty much it. It will still load in short bursts, but for the most part, whatever scene is next will be available to the player within a second or two.

Instead of using all the available RAM to load the current level, perhaps some of it could hold the first few steps of the next level. When that level is first accessed, it would load fully into RAM while you're taking the first few steps. For example, if I was fighting the Midgar Zolom, the first screen of the Mythril Mine could be loaded into the PSX memory. Once I go into the Mythril mine, that screen appears instantly, the PSX forgets the Zolom, and replaces that with the Turks.

This applies to carts, too. Any Goldeneye player knows that some carts have to load, too.

Most of the games on Playstation and Saturn worked by loading everything into RAM -- the executable for Virtua Fighter 2, for example, is tiny, and the rest is CD audio. The enhanced CD versions of Genesis games were the same thing -- except for the full-motion-video games like Dragon's Lair which needed the storage but no fast access.

 

There are a handful of streaming games on current platforms -- the Jak&Daxter games stream the content from the disc dynamically. I think Grand Theft Auto does this to an extent (though there's loading between large areas). The XBOX hard drive was supposed to be used for this purpose, but I think in practice, the developers ended up loading/streaming most data from the disc instead. The fact that most XBOX 360 games work the same way shows that not much has changed here. I think Oblivion might stream on the fly more than most games, not sure about that.

 

It would be nice to have seamless transitions throughout, like Super Mario 64. I think we'll get there eventually, and when we do, we'll forget how much NOW LOADING screens sucked. When we go back to old games, NOW LOADING will be as jarring as the ugly, jaggy caveman 3D graphics of many Playstation One games look today.

[JB]

Most of the games on Playstation and Saturn worked by loading everything into RAM -- the executable for Virtua Fighter 2, for example, is tiny, and the rest is CD audio. The enhanced CD versions of Genesis games were the same thing -- except for the full-motion-video games like Dragon's Lair which needed the storage but no fast access.

CD audio was abandoned fairly early on, thankfully. They tended to use something more loop-friendly and space-conscious once they got over the "ZOMG WE CAN DO CD MUSIC!111" thing.

 

And just because the executable is small doesn't mean a lot. The data files are huge, and those are swapped out as needed. Though generally not intelligently. Most games just wait until they need the new data, then load it all at once.

 

As far as any sort of intelligent preloading scheme, the only PS1 game I can think of that does it is Star Ocean 2.

Kinda neat how you can hear the CD drive start whirring away as you approach the entrance to a new area, and a few seconds before a battle is triggered.

 

 

It would be nice to have seamless transitions throughout, like Super Mario 64. I think we'll get there eventually, and when we do, we'll forget how much NOW LOADING screens sucked. When we go back to old games, NOW LOADING will be as jarring as the ugly, jaggy caveman 3D graphics of many Playstation One games look today.

But the load screens were ugly on the PS1, too.

Except those Ridge Racer ones with the minigames.

[oldgames]

Carts Rule! Out of all the old cartridges I've bought over the last few years only a handful have been D.O.A. I'd guess they run about 98 - 99% good. Not bad at all for stuff you pick up at garage sales, much of which looks like it's been stored in a chicken coop for the last 15 years!

 

I enjoyed taking the time to clean it and remove all that goo. It took time and effort, but I actually enjoyed it... am I sick or something? I just like rescuing stuff like this and cleaning it up.

 

Not sick at all! I also love the 'rescue' aspect of this hobby. It's very satisfying to take something that looks like it's ready for the dump and turn it back into something that can bring someone a lot of fun and memories!