NTSC Woes

[rheffera]

I just got a us game commando raid, and am trying to play it on my PAL system, it works, but in black and white only, it refuses to play in colour despite my 2600 is switched to colour. It is not the unit, because asteroids works fine on it. I have tried cleaning the contacts but to no avail. Anyone have any ideas as to whats causing this? Ithought NTSC games play on PAL machines with colour variations.

[pocketmego]

I just got a us game commando raid, and am trying to play it on my PAL system, it works, but in black and white only, it refuses to play in colour despite my 2600 is switched to colour. It is not the unit, because asteroids works fine on it. I have tried cleaning the contacts but to no avail. Anyone have any ideas as to whats causing this? Ithought NTSC games play on PAL machines with colour variations.

 

That sounds like a pretty HUGE color variation to me. Maybe its a later game and is more itchy than earlier NTSC games.

 

-Ray

[Dusk2600]

ur lucky, most new tv's do not let us even see games from ntsc to pal.

[A.J. Franzman]

ur lucky, most new tv's do not let us even see games from ntsc to pal.

Rheffera is playing an NTSC game on a PAL console. The console will output colour info at the correct PAL frequency and modulation; using an NTSC cartridge should only change which colours are shown, as well as the horizontal frequency and number of scanlines. Perhaps he's using a multi-standard TV, which is detecting the 60Hz/525 line field rate from the cartridge, and from that info, assuming that it should get the colour info in the NTSC format. If this is the case, he needs to use an NTSC console to view NTSC cartridges in colour on that TV set, unless the set can be manually configured to PAL-M reception. PAL-M is used in Brazil and perhaps some other South American countries, and is a sort of hybrid between PAL and NTSC standards, which is about the same as what you get from a PAL console with an NTSC cartridge.

[+Omegamatrix]

Commando Raid has 263 scan lines. Odd number of scan lines = black and white on a PAL TV. Even number of scan lines = color on a PAL TV.

[Mayhem]

Well that's a good explanation there then. Most NTSC games I've used on my PAL 2600 has been fine just with odd colours, but a few are in b&w. Guess I know why now.

[Spirantho]

Well that's a good explanation there then. Most NTSC games I've used on my PAL 2600 has been fine just with odd colours, but a few are in b&w. Guess I know why now.

 

I don't think that's quite it... otherwise on all those games where the number of scanlines isn't constant you'd get colour/b&w flickering.

 

More likely your TV is expecting a 60Hz signal to be NTSC and 50Hz signal to be PAL and anything inbetween could be anything, or something like that.

 

Many 60Hz signals will display on PAL sets, but in black and white - that includes PAL 60 and NTSC 60 signals. Your only options are to buy a new TV or if your TV has RGB inputs (many with SCART sockets do) then use that and you'll be fine as there's no signal encoding there... but of course how you get your Atari signal to RGB is a different matter (an external demodulator may do the trick).

 

You could try AV modding your console - might make a difference, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[rheffera]

i dont think thats quite it, as i have had a PAL gamecube running at 60hz on this tv in colur just fine.. odd

[Spirantho]

i dont think thats quite it, as i have had a PAL gamecube running at 60hz on this tv in colur just fine.. odd

 

Must be not quite 60Hz then, must be confusing your poor TV.... only thing I can think of, as a 60Hz cart in a PAL console is PAL 60 just like your Gamecube. That's assuming you're not connecting your Gamecube via SCART of course which might be RGB and not PAL at all...

[Mayhem]

My TV supports NTSC fine through AV. As said, most of my NTSC 2600 games play fine on my PAL 2600 just with different colours. A few however are in b&w. Up till this point, I don't know exactly what determines this. Probably the way the RF modulation is encoded.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I don't think that's quite it... otherwise on all those games where the number of scanlines isn't constant you'd get colour/b&w flickering.

You do!

[A.J. Franzman]

i dont think thats quite it, as i have had a PAL gamecube running at 60hz on this tv in colur just fine.. odd

But, a Gamecube is a different animal altogether from a 2600 - and I'll bet you don't have it connected via RF, either. Apples and oranges.

 

Also, what makes you think that the PAL Gamecube is putting out 60 Hz? Why would it?

Edited August 17, 2006 by A.J. Franzman

[A.J. Franzman]

My TV supports NTSC fine through AV. As said, most of my NTSC 2600 games play fine on my PAL 2600 just with different colours. A few however are in b&w. Up till this point, I don't know exactly what determines this. Probably the way the RF modulation is encoded.

No, I think Spirantho is right -- I completely forgot about the even no. of scanlines requirement of PAL, when receiving non-interlaced fields. Games producing an odd number of scanlines will always appear in B&W on a PAL set, and games whose number of scanlines varies between even and odd will alternate between colour and B&W.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Games producing an odd number of scanlines will always appear in B&W on a PAL set, and games whose number of scanlines varies between even and odd will alternate between colour and B&W.

Yes, yes, yes!

[rheffera]

If i used commando raid with a ntsc console on a pal set, that had ntsc play back written all over it, the same thing would happen?

Edited August 17, 2006 by rheffera

[Mayhem]

Most likely you wouldn't be able to tune the NTSC 2600 on your TV as US 2600s are in the channel 3 or 4 area, and the lowest most PAL sets go is down to channel 11.

 

Only real solution is to get an output modified NTSC 2600 or 7800 (to composite or S-video) and use that on your TV. I've got an S-video modded NTSC 7800 and all the NTSC games look great

[A.J. Franzman]

If the TV set is PAL-only, it doesn't matter if the NTSC console is modded for composite or S-video or not; the set will not see the colour info since it's modulated differently and carried at a different frequency. I'm not sure about the RF signal being receivable but I rather doubt it. I also doubt that PAL and NTSC channel frequency assignments are the same - your "channel 11" is not necessarily the same as ours.

[Mayhem]

I also doubt that PAL and NTSC channel frequency assignments are the same - your "channel 11" is not necessarily the same as ours.

 

I believe they are actually...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhf

 

Certainly no TV in the UK can tune to VHF signals, which is what most old NTSC consoles output afaik, without an NTSC tuner also being installed (which JobF here on AA has). Here in the UK they output on channels 35-39 instead.

 

All TVs here in the UK will support NTSC fine through AV if they are fairly recent (least five years or more). Why I'm not 100% certain but I believe it's cos they are made NTSC first, have the PAL parts added but the NTSC bits are not removed.

[Spirantho]

Certainly no TV in the UK can tune to VHF signals, which is what most old NTSC consoles output afaik, without an NTSC tuner also being installed (which JobF here on AA has). Here in the UK they output on channels 35-39 instead.

 

All TVs here in the UK will support NTSC fine through AV if they are fairly recent (least five years or more). Why I'm not 100% certain but I believe it's cos they are made NTSC first, have the PAL parts added but the NTSC bits are not removed.

 

Although no TVs can handle VHF, I know som VCRs do, like my S-VHS JVC one. Of course you still have no sound then as the sound carrier is at a different offset on NTSC signal, but you can get a picture.

 

I believe the reason modern TVs handle NTSC and PAL is simply because it's cheaper to produce one chip for all countries than one chip for each country, and the circuitry involved in switching isn't too complicated any more.