Compact Flash Cartridge

[Michael_]

"Piracy" on the Jaguar is already an option.

 

That doesn´t make it cool. We´re talking about a commercially released gizmo here that´ll enable piracy. This isn´t somebody working around something to get at the core. This isn´t a grey area like emulation. This is the real deal. Real roms transferred directly into the system. And Jagware will be selling the CF.

 

I´m not trying to pick a fight here, but people are not seing the obvious danger signals if you ask me.

I like the Jagware guys, but this latest move seems like it hasn´t been thought through.

[Michael_]

So collectors will disapear in a second ? Don't worry bout that, they won't, and they are a BIG part of the community

 

That´s not what I said.

[Michael_]

This shouldnt impact any potential new releases IMHO.

 

Exactly. Because they´re to be safeguarded by an anti-piracy system, not covering older commercially released games.

Which is one of the things I find very odd.

[JagChris]

Honestly - its been almost 10 years since Atari last produced anything Jagwise. We have multicarts/IDE offerings for the Atari 8bit arena which is only 15 years out of production not to mention 2600/7800/etc....

 

Well, maybe not ATARI, but it's no longer their system. It's the communities. FROG releases stuff. YB Games will release stuff.

 

Plus all the business that DO sell the original Jag Software, Songbird etc.

 

Hopefully though, those who use the CF for running ROMS of commercially available games will be as a backup to their original copy they purchased legitimatelly.

 

Because really, if anyone is so cheap as to steal from a community as small as the Jaguars and not support it is really just a weasel. A lowlife, scumsucking weasel who would probably have sex with their own siblings.

[JagChris]

I don´t think you can compare the Jaguar to the 2600 in this manner. Somebody already stated that the Jaguar community is small enough as it is. I´ll take it a notch further and call it fragile at best.

The size of the Jaguar community and the relatively small amount of games available doesn´t leave a lot of room for "bad times". Theoretically.

 

If you put out a device that´ll enable piracy, piracy will take place. It´s as simple as that.

 

 

"Piracy" on the Jaguar is already an option. From modified Jaguars to bypass cartridges, you can already do it on the real thing. There is working emulation with readily available ROMs. Having a compact flash device that supports ROMs is a convenience, that no more enables piracy or hurts the community anymore than any of those other options. There is piracy everywhere on every system and there always will be. You deal with it as best you can, but you don't purposely cripple things to achieve that, particularly in an already niche area.

 

 

It's an option huh? How easily available an option? Not all that easily available an option as things are. My understanding is you need something to play the ROMs. Flashcart or Alpine. Neither one cheap or readily available.

 

What working emulations? Where?

 

The JagCF would make the playing of ROMS a WAY more widespread and readily available option to everyone.

[Bill Loguidice]

The JagCF would make the playing of ROMS a WAY more widespread and readily available option to everyone.

 

So you're saying that an option available for many other platforms, from the various other Atari systems, to the stuff from Coleco, Milton Bradley, Commodore, Apple and others SHOULDN'T be made available to users of the Atari Jaguar platform? There's nothing in the Jaguar community that makes them any more likely to pirate anything than any other community. Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

[Michael_]

Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

I agree on that, but you´re overlooking one very crucial point. Jagware, in this case, will profit from the sale of a Cart that´ll enable piracy. That´s wrong.

I realize they mean no harm, but that doesn´t mean harm won´t be done.

[Bill Loguidice]

I agree on that, but you´re overlooking one very crucial point. Jagware, in this case, will profit from the sale of a Cart that´ll enable piracy. That´s wrong.

I realize they mean no harm, but that doesn´t mean harm won´t be done.

 

But again, the device does many other things than simply enable piracy when used in that one specific way. That's like saying those who sell VCR's, DVR's, CD burners, etc., shouldn't be allowed to offer what they do simply because it can be used to pirate things. It's an old argument. Let's face it, even if Jagware enabled "piracy" protection to limit using ROM's, someone would find a way around it anyway and make that access available. Why let a group of - let's face it - probably a hundred to a few hundred or so hardcore Jaguar fans who will actually buy the thing over its lifetime suffer because of the possibility of something. That's like saying we shouldn't drive cars because there's a possibility of running someone over. You draw the line where it makes sense and move forward with progress, rather than holding features back. The Jaguar community will still be at the same pace with buying stuff anyway. That won't change. This is no Pandora's box.

[+remowilliams]

But again, the device does many other things than simply enable piracy when used in that one specific way. That's like saying those who sell VCR's, DVR's, CD burners, etc., shouldn't be allowed to offer what they do simply because it can be used to pirate things.

Exactly. Whether any tool is used for a 'good' or 'bad' purpose is ultimately on the user.

 

I'll make my thoughts simple on this, and declare my vote with my $$. If the CFC is released in a purposely hobbled manner (so as not to run ROM dumps) I'll be far, far less interested. I may not even purchase it at all. Which in turn will likely impact my support of any authors who would release new games on the device.

 

In a community that seems to have a large number of people willing to pay several hundreds of dollars for a single game, I can't imagine that the CFC is going to have any huge repercussions.

 

What I can imagine is 'the community' driving away another developer before the CFC even makes it to release.

[agradeneu]

Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

I agree on that, but you´re overlooking one very crucial point. Jagware, in this case, will profit from the sale of a Cart that´ll enable piracy. That´s wrong.

I realize they mean no harm, but that doesn´t mean harm won´t be done.

 

 

Blah.There is no point in blaming Jagware for a great pieceof hardware which will be def. a win for development. Technically, piracy will be possible ever. There are 1000+ ROMS of vintage games for any system circulating the net. Deal with it.

There are already ROMs of the old games but thats not hurting the Jag. However pirating new games might be a problem.

But CD isnt safer than CF, is it? CF isnt enabling piracy as such, as one can say that the Jag itself isn't enabling piracy a such.

[JagChris]

The JagCF would make the playing of ROMS a WAY more widespread and readily available option to everyone.

 

So you're saying that an option available for many other platforms, from the various other Atari systems, to the stuff from Coleco, Milton Bradley, Commodore, Apple and others SHOULDN'T be made available to users of the Atari Jaguar platform? There's nothing in the Jaguar community that makes them any more likely to pirate anything than any other community. Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

 

That's not the point. The point was you were saying Piracy is already an option on the Jag. Yes, but a very expensive option very few in the Jag community have. You talk like it's widely available.

 

This will make that option more widely available and cheaper.

 

Some will use it legitimately. Some weasels will use it illegitimately unfortunately.

 

The JagCFs ability to play ROMs, illegal and legal, will most likely be the only real selling point it will ever have.

[Pocket]

So collectors will disapear in a second ? Don't worry bout that, they won't, and they are a BIG part of the community

 

That´s not what I said.

 

I meant people will still buy the games

[PeterG]

The JagCF would make the playing of ROMS a WAY more widespread and readily available option to everyone.

 

So you're saying that an option available for many other platforms, from the various other Atari systems, to the stuff from Coleco, Milton Bradley, Commodore, Apple and others SHOULDN'T be made available to users of the Atari Jaguar platform? There's nothing in the Jaguar community that makes them any more likely to pirate anything than any other community. Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

 

That's not the point. The point was you were saying Piracy is already an option on the Jag. Yes, but a very expensive option very few in the Jag community have. You talk like it's widely available.

 

This will make that option more widely available and cheaper.

 

Some will use it legitimately. Some weasels will use it illegitimately unfortunately.

 

The JagCFs ability to play ROMs, illegal and legal, will most likely be the only real selling point it will ever have.

 

Legal ROMs written for this device is the main selling point or am I getting something wrong? What might be another aside from the illegal ROMs?

It's like a Jag Cd, only that it will offer downloadable games or games ready on CF. Did I miss something?

[Pocket]

The JagCF would make the playing of ROMS a WAY more widespread and readily available option to everyone.

 

So you're saying that an option available for many other platforms, from the various other Atari systems, to the stuff from Coleco, Milton Bradley, Commodore, Apple and others SHOULDN'T be made available to users of the Atari Jaguar platform? There's nothing in the Jaguar community that makes them any more likely to pirate anything than any other community. Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

 

[...]

 

The JagCFs ability to play ROMs, illegal and legal, will most likely be the only real selling point it will ever have.

 

 

Totally wrong for me :

 

1) New games coming

2) I see Jagware is pushing jag development and teams, that's a very good point, I support people supporting the Jag this way

3) a new hardware easy to use to play games, demos, protos etc

4) A "special" feature you will hear soon

5) And yes, to be able to play all my cart games on a single device would be excellent

Edited September 19, 2006 by Pocket

[JagChris]

Piracy is out there. The rest of us shouldn't be limited because of it.

I agree on that, but you´re overlooking one very crucial point. Jagware, in this case, will profit from the sale of a Cart that´ll enable piracy. That´s wrong.

I realize they mean no harm, but that doesn´t mean harm won´t be done.

 

 

Blah.There is no point in blaming Jagware for a great pieceof hardware which will be def. a win for development. Technically, piracy will be possible ever. There are 1000+ ROMS of vintage games for any system circulating the net. Deal with it.

There are already ROMs of the old games but thats not hurting the Jag. However pirating new games might be a problem.

But CD isnt safer than CF, is it? CF isnt enabling piracy as such, as one can say that the Jag itself isn't enabling piracy a such.

 

 

The developers will deal with it by not developing any more games for the Jaguar. They can't afford losses like that in a community this small like the 2600 community can or other retro communities.

[Goochman]

So today their products can be copied and dumped with ease. Tomorrow if they use the new CF format there is some protection.

 

As a developer which do you prefer?

 

For developers - do they sell more than 50 copies of their product? Its not for the money.

[JagChris]

So today their products can be copied and dumped with ease. Tomorrow if they use the new CF format there is some protection.

 

As a developer which do you prefer?

 

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease. I can't do it. Only very few can do it.

 

However with the CF this will be the case. Basically blackmailing developers into using the CF.

[GT Turbo]

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease

 

You're false, which games do you want ? With my Bjl and my Falcon i can copy all games i want. So thinking JagCF will help to copy games is not a real question, everybody developpers can copy with their dev kits. Alpine, Bjl, personnal dev kits, ....

 

 

 

GT (Jagware)

[JagChris]

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease

 

You're false, which games do you want ?

 

GT (Jagware)

 

For YOU they can be. Not for everyone. So no I'm not false.

 

Even on CD people have trouble copying the games.

[GT Turbo]

For YOU they can be. Not for everyone. So no I'm not false.

 

For using games cartridges you need the rom, that means that somebody has do a copy. So, the problem don't come from the JagCF, but from the guy who has done the rom copy.

 

 

GT

[Goochman]

So today their products can be copied and dumped with ease. Tomorrow if they use the new CF format there is some protection.

 

As a developer which do you prefer?

 

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease. I can't do it. Only very few can do it.

 

However with the CF this will be the case. Basically blackmailing developers into using the CF.

 

Do you have a JagCD? How many folks dont own one? Cart production is very expensive and limiting in size.

 

Moving everyone to CF which will be widely available would appeal to most of the Community IMHO.

[Zerosquare]

I'll have to reply on behalf of SCPCD since he isn't available at the moment, and is a little shy about communicating in English much anyways Of course I can't read his mind, but he's been a friend of mine for several years, and we had discussions about this project many times before.

 

First thing (which we may have not stressed enough) : the JagCF project has been created to add new features to the Jaguar console. SCPCD did this because he's a Jag enthusiast (he's been hacking the hardware since 2001 or so). Things like the support of ROM images weren't even considered initially, since the goal was to allow the development of new, more powerful software.

 

Which brings us to the second point : it's not only about Compact Flash. The JagCF also features much more RAM, an improved and reliable networking, streamed audio, support for PS/2 keyboards and mice, and many other things (and the most important one has not been "officially" announced yet) that developers can use to create more impressive games on the Jaguar.

 

Third and last point : we're definitely not doing this for the money (come on, if we wanted to do that, we'd only make a few and then sell them to the highest bidders on eBay ). SCPCD told us [the folks at Jagware] before that he didn't care if only five units were sold, as long as interested developers could get it. And we don't plan on making huge benefices on the sales, either. Of course, adding the support for ROM images will widen the target audience, but we're not trying to benefit from piracy. If we had a possibility to deter pirates without compromising features for legitimate owners, we would do it.

 

GT Turbo posted a related poll here on AA, so if you want to express your opinion, go ahead. Unfortunately, no matter which route we go, it's bound to be disappointing for some people...

Edited September 19, 2006 by Zerosquare

[SebRmv]

So today their products can be copied and dumped with ease. Tomorrow if they use the new CF format there is some protection.

 

As a developer which do you prefer?

 

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease. I can't do it. Only very few can do it.

 

However with the CF this will be the case. Basically blackmailing developers into using the CF.

 

Please explain me how the JagCF will ease the process of dumping original ROMs ?

[Zerosquare]

So, if understand this correctly there´s going to be an anti-piracy protection system included that´ll safeguard future releases, but not older games.

Exactly. Because they´re to be safeguarded by an anti-piracy system, not covering older commercially released games.

Which is one of the things I find very odd.

However with the CF this will be the case. Basically blackmailing developers into using the CF.

We're not doing anything to harm or blackmail the developers. If they request it, we will even provide them with means to detect the JagCF in their software, so they can choose to make their future (non-CF) releases purposefully incompatible.

 

We're not talking about copy-protection for existing games, because it doesn't make much sense - many cartridges have already been dumped, and those that haven't aren't encrypted anyways. So even if someone decided (and had found a way to secure legal rights) to create a copy-protected compilation of existing games, that wouldn't prevent someone else from using the hardware to run the ROM images found on the Net.

 

How does this work and how secure will this in fact be?

The copy-protection will basically prevent accessing the Compact Flash contents on anything else that the JagCF. It's reasonably secure, i.e. not something you can defeat with a trivial hack (but of course no system is 100% foolproof). Specific details of the implementation will be disclosed to legitimate developers only. Edited September 19, 2006 by Zerosquare

[JagChris]

So today their products can be copied and dumped with ease. Tomorrow if they use the new CF format there is some protection.

 

As a developer which do you prefer?

 

No they can't be copied and dumped with ease. I can't do it. Only very few can do it.

 

However with the CF this will be the case. Basically blackmailing developers into using the CF.

 

Please explain me how the JagCF will ease the process of dumping original ROMs ?

 

OK, lemme rephrase that. Make it easier to RUN original ROMs.

 

This would be fine if more of the community was honest and just used it for legitimate purposes.

 

If Jaguar makes the CF able to read original ROMs that's fine with me.

 

I'm just pointing out that you should be aware you could be creating a tool that makes it easier for the community to be hurt.