Lumines Live Extortion

[Ze_ro]

Original Joystiq Article.

So we paid the 1200 MS points ($15) for Lumines Live, knowing we will later have to purchase the Advanced Pack (600 MS points) to complete the deal. We load it up and play a couple of rounds in basic mode (we're proud of our 27,000 high score). We know advanced mode won't work yet for aforementioned reasons.

 

We play mission mode ... for five levels. The rest will cost extra.

 

We play puzzle mode ... for five levels. The rest will cost extra.

 

We play VS CPU ... for ten levels. The rest will cost extra.

 

According to the obnoxious messages, XBLM will soon be home to a Mission/Puzzle pack and a VS CPU pack. Assuming those cost about as much as the Advanced Pack (600 MS points apiece), we're looking at a total package of 3,000 MS points ($37.50). For reference, the Lumines II for PSP and Lumines Plus for PS2 are only $29.99 each. The Xbox Live version, then, is only worth it if you have no interest whatsoever in two of the extra packs.

 

Microtransactions and a la carte gaming are the new business models (one that EA has embraced with open wallets), but we don't always have to like it. Make up your own mind if $7.50 more is worth the Xbox Live experience.

I downloaded the Lumines Live demo this morning, and it's a fun game... I was thinking about buying it, but these business strategies seem awfully underhanded. Selling extra levels in a bonus pack is one thing, but charging extra for basically everything really sucks in my opinion. I ain't buying no horse armor. At this rate, it might as well have been a full-on DVD release.

 

Anyone else getting annoyed with this crap?

 

--Zero

[Jess Ragan]

Yes. I just talked about this on my web site, and came to the conclusion that Microsoft is really phoning in their Xbox Live Arcade support. Seriously, when was the last time you downloaded an original game for the Xbox 360? When was the last time Microsoft made the deadline for an Xbox Live Arcade release? It's ridiculous.

 

Both Sony and Nintendo are putting forth a real effort to make their download services worthwhile. I hope this competition spurs Microsoft into action, because as it stands now, Xbox Live Arcade is woefully inadequate.

 

JR

[CPUWIZ]

Both Sony and Nintendo are putting forth a real effort to make their download services worthwhile.

 

[Zoop]

I dont get me wrong i love the whole live arcade ,and love the fact of being able to download 360 games ,but i'm getting sick of the constant releases of nothing ,but single game 20 yr old arcade ports. Why not have like a Namco collection downloadable for like 2,000 points ,and a Midway collection downloadable then leave the rest of it open for orginal games ,or ports of full feature games.the only games on live that i have been really excited about are Lumines Live, Doom, Geometry Wars, Wik, Zuma, Cloning Clyde, and the upcoming Contra/ Castlevania SOTN. Out of everything i bought so far i only bought 2 arcade ports (robotron ,and galaga) which were pitiful considering their potential with the platform they are on.

[Jess Ragan]

You haven't been keeping up, CPUWiz. The Wii's Virtual Console is going to be packed with games, while Sony's planning original properties for the PS3, which they claim will be superior to what's available on the Xbox 360, for about the same price. Here's what's being developed for the PS3 right now...

 

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/17/sonys-ge...-titles-leaked/

 

JR

[SomeGuyWithDSL]

You mean you've actually been able to log into Live today? Mine STILL hasn't come back online yet after yesterday's scheduled maintenance. It's been nearly a 48-hour outage for me so far.

[CPUWIZ]

You haven't been keeping up, CPUWiz. The Wii's Virtual Console is going to be packed with games, while Sony's planning original properties for the PS3, which they claim will be superior to what's available on the Xbox 360, for about the same price. Here's what's being developed for the PS3 right now...

 

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/17/sonys-ge...-titles-leaked/

 

JR

 

LOL, I know all about the online strategy, I was under the impression that I would never see you type something positive about Sony.

[Tan]

Am I the only one here who dislikes these disposable downloads? sure you can tell me that as long as XBLA is running I can re-download it, but what about after that? buying a $5 game is one thing, paying $10, 20 or $30+ for a download seems crazy to me, no backup copy nothing physical to keep, and no guarantee it'll work on the next machine after this one. So once your HDD dies and your using the mem card bye bye content.

All this right after i find out that the PC version of Oblivion is getting all of the released content plus the new stuff that the PS3 will have for $20 on a disc while the 360 gets another download no doubt a hefty one in size on it's tiny 13 gig HDD.

 

Sorry if I'm ranting here but I guess microtransactions just aren't for me, they string enough content along over the course of a game's life to almost make an expansion pack and they release it in dribbles. a disc full like the PC is getting makes for hours and hours of gameplay merged with the game instead of picking up the game for an hour or two everytime Bethesda throws a bone at us every few months.

 

/rant

[Jess Ragan]

You haven't been keeping up, CPUWiz. The Wii's Virtual Console is going to be packed with games, while Sony's planning original properties for the PS3, which they claim will be superior to what's available on the Xbox 360, for about the same price. Here's what's being developed for the PS3 right now...

 

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/17/sonys-ge...-titles-leaked/

 

JR

 

LOL, I know all about the online strategy, I was under the impression that I would never see you type something positive about Sony.

 

It is a rather infrequent occurance, isn't it? It's no secret that I don't like the Playstation 3, but I'm willing to point out the faults of ALL the consoles.

 

Right now, the Xbox 360's biggest flaw is a download service that's going to look mighty sad by the end of the year. It's a problem that can be fixed, but first they're going to have to find some original properties for XBLA and stick to their release schedules.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that Xbox 360 fans have been so forgiving of the release delays. I don't know about the rest of you, but I get a little upset when I'm promised a new game, only to find a picture pack in its place. You can be sure that people won't put up with this once the Xbox 360 has competition.

 

JR

[MCHufnagel]

Both Sony and Nintendo are putting forth a real effort to make their download services worthwhile.

 

Have you been through Michigan? My wife and I have done an organized bike ride through Hell, MI several times. Of course it was in the summer!

[Gabriel]

I was wondering how they were going to price it. After all, Lumines can easily be found for $19.99 and less for the PSP. I honestly hadn't thought about crippleware. It neatly lets them eventually charge full price for the game, and have the promotional benefit of claiming the game is only $15.

 

Ironically, I was just about to finally get a HDD and download Geometry Wars.

[Lord Helmet]

Ironically, I was just about to finally get a HDD and download Geometry Wars.

 

I am completely addicted to that game.

[Mendon]

Just my opinion, but Lumines is only part of the direction micro-transactions are going to take in the very near future.

 

After seeing what is happening with Lumines and its pricing/add-on features, I almost get the feeling that games on Xbox Marketplace are going to be handled much the same way "Shareware" releases were handled for computers like the Amiga & ST. In Shareware, you got to play around with a crippled version of the final product and couldn't access all the features until you registered (i.e. paid) for it. In Lumines, you are getting a small portion of the game (5 levels here, 5 levels there, etc... which makes it sort of a "Demo" of the game) and can access all of the additional features of the game if you pay more money for them.

 

And the direction micro-transactions are taking is not limited to only Marketplace released games.... look at what EA has done to Tiger Woods & Madden: In TW, you can now purchase for Microsoft points all the unlockables (pro shop, additional golfers, etc) that used to be earned by playing the game. Or in Madden you can now purchase additional uniforms and stadiums for MS points, which again used to be unlockables within the game.

 

In many respects, I have no problem at all with DLC's as it allows gamers to choose how they wish to play THEIR game and no one is forced to buy any additional content. But with that said, there is something about what is happening with Tiger Woods, Madden, Lumines, etc that is beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth and I'm not sure I really like the direction that gaming is going.

 

Mendon

Edited October 19, 2006 by Mendon

[Gabriel]

In many respects, I have no problem at all with DLC's as it allows gamers to choose how they wish to play THEIR game and no one is forced to buy any additional content. But with that said, there is something about what is happening with Tiger Woods, Madden, Lumines, etc that is beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth and I'm not sure I really like the direction that gaming is going.

 

Yep. It's definitely the direction gaming is going. Gaming as we know it already has one foot in the grave. I hoped things might last to the next console generation before they disintegrate. Maybe we will make it until then. Sony is a little behind on the online download thing, so if they can sustain their market dominance, it's within their interests to keep things status quo for this generation. But, they're eventually guaranteed to do the same things Microsoft and Nintendo have planned with pay for downloads.

 

But a key part of the download content is community. Have you ever played Everquest? The additional expansions are technically optional. You don't have to buy them to play. However, if you were to actually engage in playing, you quickly discover that you DO need those expansions, because everyone else does and you really can't join the community unless you have them yourself.

 

I guess another analogy could be made for fighting games. If all the top tier characters are extra downloadable content, then the only way you can be competitive in online play is to buy some top tier character downloads yourself. Community helps force you to pay more.

 

It's also guaranteed that games will now vastly drop in core content while maintaining their prices. Still using the 3D fighter analogy, while $40 previously bought a fighting game with 60 characters, a create a character mode, two minigames, and a quest mode, in the future $60 will probably only buy the core fighting game with 12 characters. Additional characters will be $5 (including each character you create). Minigames and the quest mode will be $15 each.

 

For an additional $5, you can hit a button to pull up your move list in a window.

[King_Salamon]

All this could spell the crash of 2007.

[Tan]

For an additional $5, you can hit a button to pull up your move list in a window.

 

isn't EA already doing that now with Cheats?

[Starscream]

Seriously, when was the last time you downloaded an original game for the Xbox 360?

 

I find this part funny. What original games will you be able to get on the wii? At least there are some on Live and more to come.

 

Both Sony and Nintendo are putting forth a real effort to make their download services worthwhile. I hope this competition spurs Microsoft into action, because as it stands now, Xbox Live Arcade is woefully inadequate.

 

JR

 

MS has had no competition at all online so much like Apple, they do whatever they can and get away with it until there is a challenge. Sony has proposed the biggest challenge. One place where MS excels is experience. They have been doing Live for years now, understand the challenges and obsticles, and realize the task it really is. Sony and Nintendo both have made lots of promises, but let's see them put them into action and then compare. No doubt, both can pull it off, but I am really interested to see how cheating is dealt with, accounts, and ease of use. One place where Live needs the most work is it's interface. It's very clumsy. There's a lot of stuff on there and I think a much easier interface could be used to make everything seem more coherent.

[Starscream]

Just my opinion, but Lumines is only part of the direction micro-transactions are going to take in the very near future.

 

After seeing what is happening with Lumines and its pricing/add-on features, I almost get the feeling that games on Xbox Marketplace are going to be handled much the same way "Shareware" releases were handled for computers like the Amiga & ST. In Shareware, you got to play around with a crippled version of the final product and couldn't access all the features until you registered (i.e. paid) for it. In Lumines, you are getting a small portion of the game (5 levels here, 5 levels there, etc... which makes it sort of a "Demo" of the game) and can access all of the additional features of the game if you pay more money for them.

 

And the direction micro-transactions are taking is not limited to only Marketplace released games.... look at what EA has done to Tiger Woods & Madden: In TW, you can now purchase for Microsoft points all the unlockables (pro shop, additional golfers, etc) that used to be earned by playing the game. Or in Madden you can now purchase additional uniforms and stadiums for MS points, which again used to be unlockables within the game.

 

In many respects, I have no problem at all with DLC's as it allows gamers to choose how they wish to play THEIR game and no one is forced to buy any additional content. But with that said, there is something about what is happening with Tiger Woods, Madden, Lumines, etc that is beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth and I'm not sure I really like the direction that gaming is going.

 

Mendon

 

I think the TW thing is awful. BUT, there are many people who play games that don't like a challenge and would prefer to have things handed to them in a game with no effort. All they want is the goal, not the path to it. Nothing wrong with that of course, and even though I think it's dumb, at least anyone can play a game to their liking. No different than using cheats to power up, skip levels, etc except now, the easiness will cost you money if you so choose and really only affects the person who makes the decision.

 

The Lumines situation I am torn on. I think on one hand, it's a good price for the game, the first big name game to go exclusive to digital distribution, and for the added features of the original game, not a bad deal at all. On the other hand I think it may be too pricey when you finally buy every feature for what I consider just a game you play to pass time quickly.

 

Either way, if Live did not exist at all, this would be a game available through traditional retail avenues for the same cost to us (maybe a few bucks more) but at a greater cost to everyone else involved, that probably wouldn't hit the top 10 list of games released that month or ever.

 

And to be fair to MS, Sony and Nintendo, as well as everyone involved with anything to do with console gaming, this is all new territory to be explored. Nobody knows exactly what they can get away with, what is wanted the most, or even what will work and what won't. MS blazed a nice trail for an online structure for consoles 4 years ago and pretty much made it important. They have tried many things, some worked, some didn't but they have been attempting to take console gaming to a different level. Now with Sony and Nintendo joining in full force, it's not going to be any simpler. Just like everything else, it's going to take some time to find the best direction.

[Ze_ro]

After seeing what is happening with Lumines and its pricing/add-on features, I almost get the feeling that games on Xbox Marketplace are going to be handled much the same way "Shareware" releases were handled for computers like the Amiga & ST.

Yes, except that it seems to me that you get FAR FAR less from the demo than you ever did in the shareware days. Perfect example here is Doom... if you got the free shareware PC version, you got the entire first episode. On Live, all you get is the first LEVEL. Keep in mind that the shareware version of Doom is still easy to find on the internet, and you can download it legally.

 

And have you ever tried the demo of Robotron? Christ, I think I got to the end of the demo in about 12 seconds.

 

In TW, you can now purchase for Microsoft points all the unlockables (pro shop, additional golfers, etc) that used to be earned by playing the game. Or in Madden you can now purchase additional uniforms and stadiums for MS points, which again used to be unlockables within the game.

The Tiger Woods thing doesn't bother me so much, since you can still get the stuff without paying... it's just a time saver in case you choose to do things that way. Is the Madden stuff actually removed from the game, or could that stuff still be unlocked the "old-fashioned" way?

 

All this could spell the crash of 2007.

Unfortunately, the number of people who are against digital distribution is generally pretty low. Most people will likely prefer the ease, and we'll see it prevail. Old-timers like us will get disillusioned and either give up on the whole thing, or gravitate to those consoles that better represent us (hopefully there will still be at least one or two systems with real media for us).

 

The Wii's Virtual Console is going to be packed with games, while Sony's planning original properties for the PS3, which they claim will be superior to what's available on the Xbox 360, for about the same price.

Well, they called it Xbox Live Arcade, so I'm not at all surprised to see a bunch of arcade ports for it... The virtual console is going to be primarily emulated 8/16-bit games, so it's in the same boat (if not WORSE)... As for Sony, well, we'll just have to wait and see. Developing a unique game, even a small one meant for digital distribution, is a long and time-consuming process. I'm sure we'll see more and more ported games to hit all three console's online marketplaces in the future.

 

Microsoft has said before that they're still experimenting with the whole "digital distribution" thing, so I'm hoping that stuff like Lumines Live, horse armor, the Tiger Woods thing, and the like are really just experiments to see what works and what doesn't... I really hope that we won't have to deal with shenanigans like this with every game in the future.

 

As for Lumines Live, I think I'm going to pass and wait to see if it shows up on DVD, or maybe as part of a Live Arcade Unplugged release. For the amount of money they want for it, I'd like to have a paper manual and a nice plastic case to keep it in.

 

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

Oh, and here's an interview with Tetsuya Mizuguchi (the guy who made Lumines). In addition to normal questions about the game, they actually ask him about some of the concerns we're talking about. His reasoning for having multiple packs is actually somewhat two-fold apparently. It's partly a way to side-step the 50MB limit that XBLA games have, but it's also his hope that people will "customize" the game... although this doesn't make much sense to me. If these extra downloads were different musical scores or graphics packs or themes or something, then I could accept that, but basically all I can customize is what holes I want to leave in the game and what game modes I can do without.

 

They also ask him about the price gouging, and he manages to basically BS his way out of answering.

 

--Zero

[Jess Ragan]

So, the creator of Lumines is making lame excuses to justify his price gouging, huh? I've got just one thing to say about that!

 

JR

Edited October 20, 2006 by Jess Ragan

[Atarifever]

Man do I ever hate the next gen already. What a sucky time to be a gamer this is turning out to be.

[Mendon]

I think the TW thing is awful. BUT, there are many people who play games that don't like a challenge and would prefer to have things handed to them in a game with no effort. All they want is the goal, not the path to it. Nothing wrong with that of course, and even though I think it's dumb, at least anyone can play a game to their liking. No different than using cheats to power up, skip levels, etc except now, the easiness will cost you money if you so choose and really only affects the person who makes the decision.

 

The Lumines situation I am torn on. I think on one hand, it's a good price for the game, the first big name game to go exclusive to digital distribution, and for the added features of the original game, not a bad deal at all. On the other hand I think it may be too pricey when you finally buy every feature for what I consider just a game you play to pass time quickly.

 

Either way, if Live did not exist at all, this would be a game available through traditional retail avenues for the same cost to us (maybe a few bucks more) but at a greater cost to everyone else involved, that probably wouldn't hit the top 10 list of games released that month or ever.

 

And to be fair to MS, Sony and Nintendo, as well as everyone involved with anything to do with console gaming, this is all new territory to be explored. Nobody knows exactly what they can get away with, what is wanted the most, or even what will work and what won't. MS blazed a nice trail for an online structure for consoles 4 years ago and pretty much made it important. They have tried many things, some worked, some didn't but they have been attempting to take console gaming to a different level. Now with Sony and Nintendo joining in full force, it's not going to be any simpler. Just like everything else, it's going to take some time to find the best direction.

 

Excellent, excellent points. Starscream!

 

Makes me wonder.... If they had released Lumines as a store release (at $49 or $59) instead of Marketplace (at approx. $35), would there have been any complaints?

 

Viewing it one way, all Lumines players are saving money by buying it on Marketplace. Viewing it the other way, Lumines is overpriced compared to every other game on Marketplace. Which is right???

 

I really straddle the fence when it comes to DLC's and games on Marketplace because I can see the different viewpoints that people make. There are plus's and minus's to DLC's and I really haven't decided which position to take. Hell, I'm not even sure there is a correct one.

 

Mendon

[sega saturn x]

All this could spell the crash of 2007.

Keep your stupid henny penny doom mongering to yourself please.

[Ze_ro]

So, the creator of Lumines is making lame excuses to justify his price gouging, huh?

Well, I don't know if Mizuguchi himself got to choose the price... In fact, who DOES decide on prices for Xbox Live? Do the companies that make the games get the call, or does Microsoft step in and charge whatever they want?

 

--Zero