Possible Discovery of a NEW GAME - related to the ** Defence ** post

[shadowdoggie]

Sorry to start a new post, but I thought that starting with the pictures would make for better discussion.

 

Here's the story:

The other day I won an auction that had 7 'Zellers' games, and they arrived today. When I opened the box, the first thing that I thought was, "What is this garbage?" The game I was looking at was Earth Attack. I was not impressed with the label, but I only owned one other 'Zellers' game, so I thought, that maybe that's the way they were made. I checked the game that I already owned and the label was the same quality and the ROM's (portions that I could see) looked exactly alike.

 

Upon closer review of Earth Attack, I noticed that there were additional labels stuck underneath the top and side labels. So, I carefully peeled off the side label, and it revealed a game that I'd never heard of before called " Defence ". This being the British version of the American spelling of Defense. I immediately searched AtariAge.com to find any information about this game. The only thing that I found was this: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...lite=%2Bdefence

 

That was exciting. Was this actually a game that had not revealed itself yet?

 

The top label took about an hour to get off. I tried to be as careful as possible, but I dinged up the black border on the sides a little bit. Take a look at my pictures below. I took pictures through each stage of the unveiling. People on here are sometimes very cynical, so I wanted there to be proof of what happened.

 

I've been told that you cannot be sure that you have a Zellers game unless it says Zellers on the box. But what if you don't have a box? Are there other ways to tell for sure? I'd love to think that this is a lost Zellers title, but as some have already suggested, it may be a Taiwan Cooper.

 

Nevertheless, this was an exciting afternoon for me. And, if nothing else, it's something new for the archives. Enjoy the pics. Oh, and don't forget to check your Zellers games for hidden labels. I have a feeling that this possible one-of-a-kind will not be for long…the secret’s out

Edited December 14, 2006 by shadowdoggie

[Rom Hunter]

Actually a lot of these carts are double-labeled with different labels.

 

But I want to thank you for revealing the hard to find Taiwanese pirate that was hiding underneath the Earth Attack label.

 

Edited December 14, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[+SpiceWare]

looks like a closeup of Defender

 

http://www.atariage.com/box_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=128

Edited December 14, 2006 by SpiceWare

[Rom Hunter]

I've added Defence to the Atarimania database:

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...4599&MENU=2

 

Are you sure it's NTSC?

 

Thanks for the excellent scan.

 

BTW: did you also scan the Smurf cassette tapes (not the cassette tape boxes)?

 

[shadowdoggie]

Yep, I just added the cassette pics to that post.

 

The screen didn't roll on any of the games that I received. My TV is very reliable at identifying PAL games.

 

I'm sure that you're right abou this, but how can anyone be sure whether they have authentic Zellers without the box?

 

Here's something else. The game Ocean City Defender... when I turn it on, it says FunVision. That's painful for me to admit. I want to believe.

 

Are you telling me that all 7 of these "Zellers" games are not Zellers?

Edited December 14, 2006 by shadowdoggie

[Rom Hunter]

Yep, I just added the cassette pics to that post.

I've noticed it.

Thanks!

 

The screen didn't roll on any of the games that I received. My TV is very reliable at identifying PAL games.

Well, Earth Attack from Zellers counts 262 scanlines, so I think your Defence is NTSC too.

 

I'm sure that you're right abou this, but how can anyone be sure whether they have authentic Zellers without the box?

You can't.

If one of your 7 carts is NTSC and has exactly the same title as the known Zellers titles, then it most probably is a genuine Zellers cart.

If not, then only the box with a printed Zellers price tag can proof that it's a genuine Zellers cart.

 

Here's something else. The game Ocean City Defender... when I turn it on, it says FunVision.

Don't worry.

That's a genuine Zellers cart, allright:

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...VERSION_ID=7685

 

Edited December 14, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[shadowdoggie]

Wow. I never knew that there were so many question about the Zellers titles.

 

I'll let this go soon, but here are a few things that I am confused about.

 

1. You said that I don't have to worry because my Ocean City Defender is a genuine Zellers cart. Is that only because it's listed in AtariAge.com as a Zellers title? You told me before that the only way to be sure is if you have the box. I don't have the box for Ocean City Defender. Using that logic, couldn't we have said that my Earth Attack was a genuine Zellers cart? All that I did was take a top label off. Does it then become a non-Zellers game?

 

2. AtariAge says that all Zellers games were made in Taiwan. So, why are we labeling Defence a 'Taiwanese' game, but Ocean City Defender as a Zellers game?

 

3. AtariAge also states: Since there are no Zellers catalogs, it is not entirely certain what their full lineup of games was, and historically many more games have been attributed to them than we include here at AtariAge. If you have evidence of any other Zellers games that we do not have listed, please contact us (box scan preferred). Why wouldn't more consideration be given to this game? It looks like a Zellers. It's NTSC. If we really can't say for certain that it's a Zellers game w/o a box, then we can't say for certain that it's not, right?

[shadowdoggie]

Here are more inconsistencies.

 

Take a look here: http://www.atariage.com/screenshot_page.ht...wareLabelID=759

AtariAge is calling this a Zellers Cart. But look at the screen Shot. This was made by Sancho. Look up titles by Sancho and this one is not there.

I was quick to think that my Ocean City Defender may not be Zellers because it said Funvision. But if their Sancho cart is considered Zellers, why couldn't one that said Funvision also be Zellers.

 

Also, these games are listed as Zellers, but there is no box listed on Atariage.com.

Busy Police

Inca Gold

Space Adventure

Turmoil

[Rom Hunter]

1. You said that I don't have to worry because my Ocean City Defender is a genuine Zellers cart. Is that only because it's listed in AtariAge.com as a Zellers title? You told me before that the only way to be sure is if you have the box. I don't have the box for Ocean City Defender. Using that logic, couldn't we have said that my Earth Attack was a genuine Zellers cart? All that I did was take a top label off. Does it then become a non-Zellers game?

I think your Earth Attack was a genuine Zellers cart, because it's NTSC and an Earth Attack box with the Zellers tag on it is known to exist.

But that doesn't mean that the underneath Defence is a genuine Zellers cart too (unless all Earth Attack carts have a Defence label underneath), because no Defence box with a printed Zellers tag on it has ever been found.

2. AtariAge says that all Zellers games were made in Taiwan. So, why are we labeling Defence a 'Taiwanese' game, but Ocean City Defender as a Zellers game?

Both Zellers carts and Taiwanese 2600 Compatible carts were originally manufactured in Taiwan.

The only difference is the printed price tag.

3. AtariAge also states: Since there are no Zellers catalogs, it is not entirely certain what their full lineup of games was, and historically many more games have been attributed to them than we include here at AtariAge. If you have evidence of any other Zellers games that we do not have listed, please contact us (box scan preferred). Why wouldn't more consideration be given to this game? It looks like a Zellers. It's NTSC. If we really can't say for certain that it's a Zellers game w/o a box, then we can't say for certain that it's not, right?

Wrong.

If it doesn't have the Zellers box, it's an 'ordinary' 2600 Compatible:

http://www.atarimania.com/lst_soft.php?MEN...n_sauver=Search

The only difference is that it's NTSC, but I think that more of these Taiwanese 2600 Compatible (and Cooper Black) carts are NTSC.

 

Edited December 14, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[+Omegamatrix]

Here's four of my boxes.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2007 by Omegamatrix

[Rom Hunter]

Yes.

 

These are Zellers boxes.

 

BTW: here's a good example:

 

Taiwan (2600 Compatible):

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...ERSION_ID=18084

 

Zellers (2600 Compatible):

http://www.atarimania.com/detail_soft.php?...7680&MENU=2

 

Edited December 14, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[shadowdoggie]

Ok. If we need to have a rule to define what an 'approved' Zellers cart is, then I understand. There has been no box found yet for 'Defence', therefore we cannot say for sure that it is Zellers. The part about believing it was a Zellers cart until I pulled off the first label is difficult to comprehend. If I pull a Missile Command off of a Combat cart, it's still an Atari Cart.

 

I'm shocked that more people are not weighing in on this discussion. This is good stuff to hammer out.

 

We posted the last one at the same time so hopefully you saw my last post.

 

When I first saw the cart, here was my theory. When Zellers first started making copies of Atari games, they were using parts of the original Atari artwork. Maybe they eventually realized that there were copyright issues with that and covered up the earlier games with their own artwork. On your site, you have several examples of Blown Up Atari Artwork on 'Zellers looking games'. Maybe this is why... just a theory.

 

I certainly cannot think of a good reason why a third party would cover up their own label with a Zellers label.

 

So here's what I'm left with. If I put the old ruined label back on the game I have a Zellers game. If I leave it off, I don't have a Zellers game. Just doesn't seem right to me.

Edited December 15, 2006 by shadowdoggie

[+Omegamatrix]

Okay here's the thing about Zellers. Zellers is a big chain department store in Canada. They started selling These Zellers titles after the crash in about '86. They were cheap, they were pirates, but they weren't made by Zellers as much as they were made for Zellers. This Tawian company whoever they were produced all the carts and such and shipped them, but they didn't just produce for Zellers, they produced for PAL countries as well. You will see the same front label for a Zellers cart reused on many PAL titles with a weird name that is usually mispelled.

 

For Zellers carts they put a Zellers logo in the top right corner of the box. They didn't do that with any other company. The cart itself is exactly the same. Quality control was minimal at this company. I have personally seen labels glued upside down so it's not hard for me to imagine a batch of Defence's being mixed up with Earth Attacks, and it was probably easier to just put the correct label over top. As far as I know Zellers is the only company that distributed this style of carts in NTSC, and all the oddities such as Laaser Voley and your Defence cart were probably just screw ups that slipped in. If your cart is NTSC I would say that it is probably from a Zellers store, but it's clear it was a mistake. I do believe that particular cart I have seen before in PAL country auctions. It was an Earth Attack NTSC rom that got the wrong labels put on it, and then corrected with the right labels.

 

With the Sancho logo all Zellers carts are pirates. They robbed other companies. Hope this helps. Here is a list of their equivilants:

 

Busy Police = Keystone Kapers (Activision)

Challenge (NTSC) = Challenge (PAL) HES

Circus (uses joystick) = Circus Atari (uses paddles) Atari

Dragon Treasure = Dragonfire (Imagic)

Earth Attack = Defender (Atari)

Farmer Dan = Gopher (US Games)

Freeway = Freeway (Activision)

Frontline = Combat (Atari)

Inca Gold = Spider Maze (K-Tel Network)

Laser Volley = Laser Gates (Imagic)

Ocean City Defender (hack with different ships, Funvision logo) = Atlantis (Imagic)

Pinball = Arcade Pinball (Atari)

Radar = Exocet (Panda)

Scuba Diver = Scuba Diver (Panda)

Sea Hawk = Sea Hawk (Panda)

Space Adventure = Flash Gordon (20th Century Fox)

Time Warp (NTSC) = Funvision's Time Warp (PAL), and Funvision's Time Race (PAL)

Turmoil = Turmoil (20th Century Fox)

[Rom Hunter]

Thanks for the reply, Omegamatrix.

 

You haven't discovered any Zellers carts with double identities, have you?

 

Here are more inconsistencies.

 

Take a look here: http://www.atariage.com/screenshot_page.ht...wareLabelID=759

AtariAge is calling this a Zellers Cart. But look at the screen Shot. This was made by Sancho. Look up titles by Sancho and this one is not there.

Yes, unfortunately there are quite some inconsistencies in the PAL section of AtariAge database.

 

BTW: the one that says Funvision is a genuine Zellers cart.

 

Edited December 15, 2006 by Rom Hunter

[+Omegamatrix]

The Screenshot for Radar off of Atariage is correct. I just fired up two Radar's and they both had it. Looking at the rarity guide Scuba Diver and Sea Hawk still have to moved into the Zellers section. Boxes for those titles have been found.

[A.J. Franzman]

So here's what I'm left with. If I put the old ruined label back on the game I have a Zellers game. If I leave it off, I don't have a Zellers game. Just doesn't seem right to me.

Why was the top label ruined? Did you not use a hair dryer or heat gun to help release the adhesive? The same trick often works in reverse when re-applying a label if it doesn't stick well -- get it hot to soften the adhesive, then press it down as it cools and it should stay stuck.

[shadowdoggie]

Perfect. I get it now. I was off reading what you two had written in other posts and finally understood what is meant by Zellers. But you explained it very clearly here too.

 

So, is it possible to then have a cart that has been identified as a Zellers cart, but not actually be a true Zellers cart? What I mean is, maybe a Busy Police was shipped in a non-Zellers box. Could that be possible?

 

Zellers is weird. Like someone else said, it's like saying that WalMart was a label maker. Well, I don't know what to do with this game now. It's one of my Zellers if I put the old label back on, but it's (for now) one-of-a-kind if I don't. Think I'll just keep the Earth Attack labels on the side.

 

Freakin great info guys. Thanks.

[+Omegamatrix]

Thanks for the reply, Omegamatrix.

 

You haven't discovered any Zellers carts with double identities, have you?

 

With all my doubles I got 50 loose Zellers carts at the moment and more on the way. I don't have any double labels though, and think those are kind of cool. I should start collecting them. I like label errors. That's why I bought Shawn's Laaser Voley. I'm more into boxes at the moment though. Got bitten by the box bug.

[shadowdoggie]

So here's what I'm left with. If I put the old ruined label back on the game I have a Zellers game. If I leave it off, I don't have a Zellers game. Just doesn't seem right to me.

Why was the top label ruined? Did you not use a hair dryer or heat gun to help release the adhesive? The same trick often works in reverse when re-applying a label if it doesn't stick well -- get it hot to soften the adhesive, then press it down as it cools and it should stay stuck.

 

No, it's not totally ruined, but real wrinkly (see pics above). I didn't use a hair dryer.

 

Here's what really happened... I thought I had read that you could steam the label off. So, I boiled some water and started to steam the label. Then, I decided that steaming might heat up the ROM and ruin the game. So I went to move the game away from the steam, and it fell in the freakin boiling water. It was in there about .0001 seconds, because I had my hand in that boiling water instantly. I swear it was like the game gods didn't want me to ever see what was behind that sticker, because the game literally jumped out of my hand. The game was fine, but I think the sticker was even more difficult to remove because of the 'accident'. So there is my little story. The game plays fine.

Edited December 15, 2006 by shadowdoggie

[+Omegamatrix]

Shadowdoggie the best we can say is if someone finds a box with a Zellers logo on it, then we can say that title was carried in the Zellers department stores. So we know Busy Police is a Zellers title. You now go and find a loose Busy Police in the wild. Is that a Zellers cart then? I can tell you the odds are 95% yes. The next time you go thrifting you find a Zellers style cart with the same front label as Busy Police, but a weird misspelled end label. It rolls like the national debt on your TV screen. Is it a Zellers cart? 95% no. The week after you go thrifting and find a third Busy Police and this one is double labeled. It plays fine on your TV, but is it a Zellers cart? I would say there is a 80% of of it being so. If you had bought that game brand new and pulled it out of the box then that's the only way you could get 100% yes.

 

And now for some label variations and oddities:

 

 

Anyone got some more of these carts with the grooves cut in on the sides? I've gotten all of these from auctions in the US. I'd love to see more titles that have them.

[+Omegamatrix]

So here's what I'm left with. If I put the old ruined label back on the game I have a Zellers game. If I leave it off, I don't have a Zellers game. Just doesn't seem right to me.

Why was the top label ruined? Did you not use a hair dryer or heat gun to help release the adhesive? The same trick often works in reverse when re-applying a label if it doesn't stick well -- get it hot to soften the adhesive, then press it down as it cools and it should stay stuck.

 

No, it's not totally ruined, but real wrinkly (see pics above). I didn't use a hair dryer.

 

Here's what really happened... I thought I had read that you could steam the label off. So, I boiled some water and started to steam the label. Then, I decided that steaming might heat up the ROM and ruin the game. So I went to move the game away from the steam, and it fell in the freakin boiling water. It was in there about .0001 seconds, because I had my hand in that boiling water instantly. I swear it was like the game gods didn't want me to ever see what was behind that sticker, because the game literally jumped out of my hand. The game was fine, but I think the sticker was even more difficult to remove because of the 'accident'. So there is my little story. The game plays fine.

Well, that adds a little history to this particular cart.

[shadowdoggie]

Here are two that I have with ridges and lookie what I forgot I had. A Zellers wannabee from Brazil.

[+Omegamatrix]

Very nice! I'm sure more than a few Brazilian carts have slipped up here. Usually they have the weird misspelled names like yours does.

[+Omegamatrix]

Rom, See this pic and look closely at the Earth Attack. See the double label?? Perhaps Earth Attack is a common double label. This pic comes from Mindfield, and in there is the first Zellers cart that I ever found in the wild which I had sold to Mindfield, Busy Police. I kept the pic when he was selling out for nostalgia's sake. Anyhow the picture clearly shows a double label on Earth Attack. This leads me to believe that there was a batch of mixed up Earth Attacks.

 

[Spirantho]

Ah.. Zellers - my pet Atari peeve.

 

As I see it - this is my theory, and only mine (and it belongs to me) - there is absolutely no such thing as a 'zellers cart', any more than there is a 'Walmart cart' or a 'Quik-e-mart cart'. Fact is these cartridges were made in Taiwan as pirates for countries all around the world. The ONLY difference is that the box had a white box saying Zellers on. If the US is like the UK you'd still be able to get the cart in the usual non-branded packaging at fairs and stuff like that quite easily.

 

The only reason these carts have become branded "Zellers carts" is because there are no markings of the manufacturer (obviously - it's pirate!) and people wanted to categorise it as something. But I believe it's a complete mis-nomer. The carts are just another style of pirate cart.

 

There are many many other pirate carts that are identical to carts sold in Zellers stores - mostly PAL, but probably not exclusively... it's just wrong to have a cart style in which 5% are "Zellers" and 95% are "pirate" just because those 5% happened to be sold in Zellers stores.

 

True, you can get Zellers boxes but the carts inside are bog-standard pirates, just like everywhere else in the world.

 

So there.