AtariGeezer Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 My new Ultimate1MB ROM Generator should help out a bit, with it you can edit the ROM descriptions for the 4 OS, Basic & Game slots I just need to go over it once more before a public release, but first it needs Candles' okay before that happens... It will be posted in the private thread today... Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) ...which will guide the novices thru the "complicated process of flushing" would nicely do the job... You just grip the handle and turn, my friend. Exactly, that's how a software should be unless it's written for geeks only. it's called user friendliness but seems like an alien concept around some circles :grin: Edited July 17, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (...) He who disagrees or says something outside the consensus becomes a target. (...) ...Well life's tough, though. It seems like such trait is the fabric itself of this place. In any case, just consider the "noise-cancel" feature of this forum and most of the noise/pollution from these "pseudo-deities" disappears right before eyes... efortlessly. All I can say is that Ultimate-1MB has worked BEAUTIFULLY and relentlessly, in my primary, fully-socketed 800XL (still have to install on my twin/back-up 800XL, though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) @Candle: Today I've had some time to try to diagnose the problems regarding my U1MB Installation, unfortunately came empty handed on this round. Here's what I did with my 800XL (Stock with the exception of a Chroma mod) - Uninstalled the U1MB - Re-inserted OS Rom and MMU - Restarted and tested the 800XL: Memory test for 64K, checks OK 3 different carts, OK Booted several different DOS with SIO2PC, OK The computer in stock mode runs OK, no problems detected, no screen corruption, no freezing - Removed the OS and MMU then: Checked all MMU socket pins from both sides, OK Checked continuity on all MMU socket pins following the traces to the first connection on mobo, OK Checked all OS ROM socket pins (double checked the problem pads) from both sides, OK Checked continuity on all OS ROM socket pins following the traces to the first connection on mobo, OK - Tested every wire of the MMU ribbon cable for continuity, OK Wire numbers 5 and 7 (with inline resistors) reading 178 Ohms each (I suppose OK as they are now covered with shrink tubing so I can not read the color coding to determine their values) - Tested every wire of the OS ribbon cable for continuity, OK - Double checked all 4 wires going to the mobo for continuity (R/W, Reset, PHI2 and HALT), OK Traced the wires to the next connection on the motherboard, continuity OK Connection points of the wires to the motherboard is illustrated in the attached photos (not the original points near the PBI, but further down the mobo) - Reinstalled U1MB, restarted the computer, seemed OK for a few minutes, but as I changed the settings and tried different configs problems returned. Symptoms: Random characters appearing on the setup screen at random intervals, sometimes the whole screen is garbled. This happens whether a cart is installed or not. Random chars and Garbled screen only happens when I am in the U1MB Setup screen and nowhere else Randomly freezing when booting from disk with Stock or Hi-Speed OS, (Tested both with a 1050 and SIO2PC) SDX boots but disk drive access is unstable Diagnostic system included with U1MB shows Zero Page and Stack RAM tests: OK, RAM Size: 063488. The test screen has a constant buzzing sound. VBXE Base, Stereo Sound, Covox, SIDE all disabled, Basic Slot: BASIC, XEGS Game Slot: CAR1 BASIC is OK Missile Command is OK Extended Memory seems to be OK One other thing about this 800Xl is that it has a capacitor in between SIO11 (Audio-in) and SIO4 (Gnd), don't know why it's there (a noise filter maybe), but I doubt that will affect U1MB. The following are some photos of my installation and that capacitor on the SIO port: Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 a8 - the work in your pics looks good. Have you made absolutely sure that all flux has been removed from the board? I thought I had screwed up one of my 130XEs after installing some sockets. It had random behaviour (screen garbage and crashes) after it was on for a while. After a second cleaning of all sockets and bottom of the PCB with Acetone, then an extremely hot water rinse, followed by a compressed air drying, the machine returned to fully stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) a8 - the work in your pics looks good. Have you made absolutely sure that all flux has been removed from the board? I thought I had screwed up one of my 130XEs after installing some sockets. It had random behaviour (screen garbage and crashes) after it was on for a while. After a second cleaning of all sockets and bottom of the PCB with Acetone, then an extremely hot water rinse, followed by a compressed air drying, the machine returned to fully stable. Well i did, there was a little bit of residue (mostly clean though) and it got treated with some Isoprophyl Alcohol and a toothbrush, didn't wash the board with hot water though just wiped that area with a damp cloth. I will check the board again carefuly to see if there are any more that i have missed, other than that it drives me crazy :-), can't really think of anything else at this point short of analysing the signals but I don't have a scope.... I do however have a logic probe but I am not sure how useful a diagnostic tool that may be.. Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 Ray, can you put standard os and mmu, power up the board, connect it to tv and then grab with your two hands and bend and twist it? don't be affride to do so, if it hangs, show me the pictures of these dip40 sockets there, they look like the wrong type also, rom socket - have you used the same type as for mmu? if so, its okay, but i don't know why not doing it with precision sockets instead - they aren't that much more expensive, but will last forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 There are four more test Ray really 'should' do, before he is going to remove all those sockets (which is really a hard job when you are not too experienced by that) 1. Try (a few) other PSU's. A bad PSU can cause strange things. 2. Get the Ultimate1MB setup screen (with the garbage) and very gently (!) push te connector on the MMU socket, and look what happens. And then repeat this on the connector which goes into the OS socket. Look what happens on the screen. 3. When the Atari is switched on start a little basic program (like the one I type below) and run the program. Then use a hair dryer and heat the CPU with it. When the atari crashes (soon) your CPU is bad. You could retry this with Antic. 4. If all this does not lead to anything, you could try to put your finger on certain points on the u1MB. I'm not at home right now, and I can not find that thread I spoke about (with rdemming having the same issue as you have!!) .. he found out he had some 'disturbance' or whatever I should call it on a few (address) lines. His finger worked like one very big terminator-resistor (or something like that), and the problem disappeared. This is not a solution, but a diagnostic thing. But beware: all these actions are on your own risk. There is always a chance by doing things like these, you'll ruin your atari forever; so please go at work gently. This is the basic program you could run: 10 GRAPHICS 0 20 FOR X=1 TO 10000 30 PRINT X,"WILL MY ATARI CRASH?" 40 NEXT X Good luck! Greetz M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) @Candle: I was always using these type of sockets when socketing my 8 bits and with my SIO2PCs, sure they don't look as nice as precision ones but never had any problems with them, sure I could have used precision sockets but i didn't have any. For the OS I used a socket from an old PC Video Card, for the MMU I used a 14 pin socket and cut a piece from another 14 pin to complete it to 20 pins, so it's home made, again I didn't have a 20 pin handy. Anyhow the machine works fine with it's MMU and OS chips in place (it does not seem to work fine, it does work fine), but I'll do the test you suggested and report back. In the meantime some more photos in the hopes that something may catch your attention. @marius: Thanks for the suggestions. I've read the older U1MB thread from the start to the end and I've seen rdemming's posts. Interestingly most problem installs seem to be associated with 800XL, might be just a coincidence but I m also wondering if there's something different between the XE and XL as far as U1MB is concerned, anyway I will try your suggestions too and see what happens. here's some more soft porn before I go and do the twist'n'shake'n'tap'npush tests P.S: The cover of the computer is a tight fit after U1MB install, I need to pay great attention before putting the cover back on as the edge of the keyboard sometimes pushes against the ribbon connector, clearence is very tight, although it's not the cause for my troubles as i tried it with cover off too and had the same problems. Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 what is that on overall view 2? didn't i ship connector and pins for it so you wouldn't have to use another one? i'm just picky, but you're running most important signals there, and to make the matter even worse, you have this twisted? really? so crosstalk would be stronger? or there is another point to it? using used sockets, and machine type - and you was calling someone here that he does 'ghetto upgrades' - not very wise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Oh, I don't mind ghetto upgrades, as long as it works it's OK with me, you should have seen my 1st Peterson memory upgrade, it looked like a web with zillions of cables, bent pins, cuts etc..., I've said that because some people like to use that word very much in a condescending way so I thought it might have had a "good" effect on HIM if i used it (and that didn't imply U1MB is a ghetto upgrade, that was his interpretation) :-)) but anyway back to the subject. I extended the cables because they were a bit too tight and I didn't want to desolder them and solder new ones in their place so I extended them, I measured each one of them for continuity and proper connection but to be honest I didn't think of the antenna effect or crosstalk. I can try with shorter cables again if that's what it comes to. Here's a video of my twist'n'tap test: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aw8live 800XL works fine in stock config even if it's twisted and banged against. P.S: You don't have to interpret my words or questions as if I am crtitisizing your hardware, I am not (and I can't), I simply posted my install problems here in the hopes of finding help, what brought this whole thing to this level was the childish approach of some users. I am a curious person and I am not an expert on electronics and I might ask some questions that may seem stupid to you (understandably so), don't take them personally and don't listen to what immature people might be saying, what I am saying here directly to you is what it counts. I like your hw projects, they are the most advanced and useful upgrades in my opinion (did I buy any other upgrades so far - this should give you a clue), I just wished you gave the same attention to the documentation. Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Here's another view showing the extention cable. The oriiginal cables I made came just a tad too short and was putting pressure on the P2, that's the reason for the extention. And I've put a dab of hot glue so I don't leave any naked metal on the connector to prevent shorts with the mobo. It was made out of an old PC CD cable and it was already twisted so I didn't think of a possible bad effect. But I will try again without the extention and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 seems fine can you do the same with u1mb installed? Robert (rdemming) put a pull-up resistor on A13 line to get his one working reliable, but then he got another one and put it into another 800xl and it was fine - what i've asked him to do, was to swap OS ROM cables and see if unit working fine will develop something like he was seeing on the other machine prior to his fix anyway, its a matter of putting a 4.7k-10k resistor with one end tied up to 5V and the other to the A13 signal even if that won't do a thing for you, its not very time consuming and can be quickly done or undone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 seems fine can you do the same with u1mb installed? Robert (rdemming) put a pull-up resistor on A13 line to get his one working reliable, but then he got another one and put it into another 800xl and it was fine - what i've asked him to do, was to swap OS ROM cables and see if unit working fine will develop something like he was seeing on the other machine prior to his fix anyway, its a matter of putting a 4.7k-10k resistor with one end tied up to 5V and the other to the A13 signal even if that won't do a thing for you, its not very time consuming and can be quickly done or undone Yup, that's what I was going to do after I tried your suggestions. Let me see if removing the extention cable will do the trick first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Ok, removing the extention cable didn't do the trick. What I am noticing during these tests though is that problems don't start right after a cold start but they appear after a few minutes of operation and get progressively worse. Then I turn the computer OFF, let it sit for a few minutes and when I restart the same cycle happens again. The longer I let the computer stay OFF the better is the restart. Although this is only when the U1MB is in there, in stock config I don't have this cycle. I checked the temp on the chips, Antic and 6502 are the warmest (as expected) but not warm enough to be concerned about. I guess I am doing Robert's mod next... EDIT: Well actually I will be doing the twist test with U1MB on as you suggested. Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Already checked power supply as suggested? And you can not say your CPU is good or not by it's temperature. Just heat up the CPU with an external heating source (hair dryer) ... That is a common test.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Nope , twisting, tapping, squeezing U1MB cables in different ways, pushing on the connectors etc.. does not fix or change anything.... Next step is to try robert's fix... Hell, i didn't have this much trouble even with the Peterson upgrade back in the day where my soldering and technical skills were nowhere near to what i have today. I've built 75+ SIO2PCs most of them 100% hand built and didn't have a single incident......I am sure it's something very simple that's blocking the way for a successfl install, question is what the heck is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Already checked power supply as suggested? And you can not say your CPU is good or not by it's temperature. Just heat up the CPU with an external heating source (hair dryer) ... That is a common test.... Yes Marius I am now doing the tests with another PSU (from the 130XE). I leave this 800XL ON (in stock condition) overnight and have never had any trouble with heat or the CPU. People talk about that so called Mexican CPU, I don't know how to identify one, but here's a photo... Does that look Mexican to you (I see no sombrellas anywhere.. )... I am going to get my hair dryer anyway, never thought I would ever need one knowing what's on my head (or rather, what's not ) Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 That is not a Mexican ... On the Mexico branded CPU you see the word Mexico and the letter D Your CPU can work properly in a stock machine, and still be a weak part... If I was you I tried this u1mb in another Atari first. Then try again in false Atari and start swapping parts with the good one. There are so many possible issues.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Did anyone suggest pushing gently down on the Xilinx chip on the Ultimate 1MB board once the problem has manifested itself, just to eradicate the admittedly remote possibility of a dry joint (account of problems starting after system warms up are bringing back some memories for me)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I remember having an Atari 800xl which worked great, until I build a myide in it. That started making unwanted clicks... Finally I had to replace almost everything in that Atari.... It is a strange thing. I usually downgrade such Atari to stock and I put a sticker on the bottom and I write on the sticker "Niet uitbreiden" which Is dutch for: do not expand/upgrade. Luckily there are not so many of these atari's in my stock... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Did anyone suggest pushing gently down on the Xilinx chip on the Ultimate 1MB board once the problem has manifested itself, just to eradicate the admittedly remote possibility of a dry joint (account of problems starting after system warms up are bringing back some memories for me)... No dry joints Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I remember having an Atari 800xl which worked great, until I build a myide in it. That started making unwanted clicks... Finally I had to replace almost everything in that Atari.... It is a strange thing. I usually downgrade such Atari to stock and I put a sticker on the bottom and I write on the sticker "Niet uitbreiden" which Is dutch for: do not expand/upgrade. Luckily there are not so many of these atari's in my stock... I really wanted this upgrade in my 800XL and I don't have another 800XL to try it on. If I can't get it to work with this machine. I will try my 65XE, that means another socket job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) I remember having an Atari 800xl which worked great, until I build a myide in it. That started making unwanted clicks... Finally I had to replace almost everything in that Atari.... It is a strange thing. I usually downgrade such Atari to stock and I put a sticker on the bottom and I write on the sticker "Niet uitbreiden" which Is dutch for: do not expand/upgrade. Luckily there are not so many of these atari's in my stock... Gee Marius, how many machines do you have I am not really a collector but I am trying to complete my XL and XE series plus an 800. So far I have 1 x 800 XL (Chroma mod), 1 x 65XE (stock), 1 x 130XE (Internal SIO2PC) and 4 1050's (one with USD). So I need a 600XL, a 1200XL and an 800 (no 400 for me) to complete my small collection. I just noticed I can't even spell Sombrero today... Sombrellas... ha ha By the way tried the hair dryer test too, didn't make any difference other than making my office unbearably hot. It's been 35C yesterday, a bit cooler today in Toronto Edited July 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 heh i got way too many XE machines, and whole xl line (at least that was actually in production) only piece i miss is xegs, but its not high-priority for me lets just say Marius has 15 machines with u1mb installed in them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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