New homebrew called "Rocketeer"

[Ignorama]

I dont know hat you want from me. I quote you the THIRD time:

 

 

Elektronite has a business, and has produced some solid games with boxes, inserts, etc.....at not a lot more in cost, so I think you should cut the Elektronite guys a little slack here.....just sayin!

 

You said that Elektronite makes CiB games for not a lot more money and thats rubbish, because a CiB game costs the double of what Groovy took. I dont care how much they want for a cart (without a shell), because that wasnt your statement. Hopefully you get it now, because I wont quote your statement afain.

[mjarnold7]

You are buying a cart only game from Groovy, and Elektronite offers a cart only game for the same price, that is what I am getting at....

[mjarnold7]

Homebrewers are people, not employees.

 

Not being a smart ass Rev, but what do you mean by that?

[Ignorama]

Then write that and and dont write something about boxes and inserts if you are talking about loose carts. By the way, I do not know why you are saying this, because it has nothing to do with the topic. When we talk about prices Intelligentvision and LeftTurnOnly made the cheapest games.

[Rev]

This is what its all about. Just look at those graffix!

[mjarnold7]

You know what Ignorama, I guess I just can't talk to you, I am not sure if it is the language barrier or what.....so I apologize for how you understood things from me......I tried, I just don't know how else to explain..

[Rev]

Not being a smart ass Rev, but what do you mean by that?

Ponder it for a while, it will become apparent.

 

:-).

[Foom]

In response to a couple of the recent posts:

 

1) This is the Rocketeer thread. What I discussed is directly related to the production and delivery of that game, as well as the production and delivery of Hover Bovver . Hence, my post was entirely appropriate.

 

2) Being a "homebrewer" does not magically release a person from the responsibility of fulfilling a contractual obligation. The parties involved with producing Hover Bovver and Rocketeer are all grown adults and professionals. They are not little kids hacking around on computers in their spare time. Each side has clear responsibilities. They should fulfill them. In my opinion, one of the parties involved with Hover Bovver clearly did not live up to their responsibilities.

[Fushek]

And on the 7th day, God said ...

 

"Let there be Bacon!"

 

And all was right with the world again .

 

[Ignorama]

@ foom

 

Do you know details of the contract for Hover Bovver?

[Foom]

@Ignorama: I will only comment on the information that has already been presented and discussed in this thread. Based on what I have read in this thread, GroovyBee decided to do Rocketeer during the Hover Bovver development schedule. The representatives of Elektronite may of course talk about the specifics of their agreement with GroovyBee, should they wish.

[Ignorama]

I dont find anything in this thread which tells us something about a deadline in the contract. I cant imagine that there is no deadline, but I dont know it and if I get it right you dont know it either. You can say what you personally think about the delay and of course its your right to tell your opinion about which game should get released earlier, but "as a profesional" I think you should not talk about contractual obligations if you do not know the contract.

 

Anyway, any further discussion about contracts should be a private talk between Elektronite and Groovy Bee, because no one else knows details and thats good, because we are not involved into this.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ignorama

[Foom]

@Ignorama: I would refer you to the comments posted in this thread by "Games For Your Intellivision" dated Sept. 5. Although a specific deadline date was not mentioned, their was clear displeasure voiced by the poster, who had contracted GroovyBee to write a game for him. Further, I would point out that GroovyBee has stated himself in this thread that he missed his original target date for the release of Rocketeer. Based only on what has been posted to date in this thread, I feel that GroovyBee clearly overextended himself by taking on both games.

 

I agree that the specifics of whatever contracts exist between GroovyBee and Elektronite should be resolved privately, to the maximum extent possible. I would point out, however, that statements were made to the effect that Groovy's customers for Rocketeer should receive their game first because they had pre-paid for them, and that Elektronite had a weak argument when they stated that GroovyBee should complete Hover Bovver first. I felt compelled to support Elektronite's position on this matter.

 

I do not know GroovyBee personally. I am sure that he is a wonderful person. But as I stated in my original post, I cannot for the life of me figure out why he would take on Hover Bovver, and then simultaneously start a second major software development project, not to mention development work on an Intellivision cartridge board. When you hire an individual to do a job, it is reasonable to expect that person to complete the job in a timely manner, and to not take on additional assignments that will impact either the timeliness or the quality of the work that he or she is doing for you. It is likewise unfair to the second party to take on the second job.

 

I do hope that everything can be worked out to the satisfaction of GroovyBee, Elektronite and Groovy's Rocketeer customers.

[+SoulBuster]

GB has put forward an effort to continue our love of a great machine. This thread has turned disheartening. I cringe every time I have to read this drivel. I just hope a wedge has not been driven between those that love this machine and GB. Since we have not heard from GB in sometime, my hope is that GB will continue the effort to bring new games to this platform despite what has been aired publicly here.

 

Love you GB, please keep up the good work.

[+cmart604]

Wow, has this thread ever strayed into Bacon territory. I don't feel that this is in any way productive to us getting to play great new games on our beloved Intellivision which should be the point.

 

Whatever issues Willy and Mark have to resolve around Hover Bovver, I feel should be between them, not us, and instead of engaging in "He said, he said" we should be discussing the merits of all the upcoming games for the Intellivision. Between GB, Willy, Joe, Carl, David, dZ, Arnauld, Rev, et al, this is a new Golden Age for the INTV.

 

Whether this is a business or a hobby, (or both), for these individuals who have taken time from their lives to work on these labours of love, I believe they deserve our understanding, patience, appreciation, and support, and not our derision and mud slinging.

 

I do not begrudge anyone who is worried about these games coming out, especially if they have made a financial commitment and are worried about receiving the products they've paid for, but what I will say from experience in buying homebrews on many platforms is that sometimes things don't work out as planned, and often real life gets in the way of best intentions. I will extend the same offer Rev made, if anyone is genuinely concerned about receiving their games I'd be happy to buy your games on the spot.

 

I have been fortunate enough to have conversations with both of these gentlemen, and while I have no interest in taking sides, what I will say is that they are both very passionate about releasing new games for the Intellivision console, and for that we should be thankful, and I, for one, have all the time in the world for both of them and the great projects they're working on.

 

I am but one voice, but I hope reason prevails, and we get back to talking about more important and pressing issues, like the 14 different versions of Donkey Kong for the Inty that exist. That is what is truly important.

 

I return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

 

Completely off topic, Rev likes Hello Kitty....for real.

[ghsqb]

Foom,

I appreciate that you are a friend of Williams, and you are trying to do right by him with your comments.

 

When some of the details of the agreement between William and Groovy started to spill out in this thread, you could see that the reaction wasn't very positive, and frankly William took some flack that he maybe didn't deserve.

 

All valid reasons why you would want to come to the defense of your friend.

 

Please understand though that the more this plays out publicly, the more your friend stands to lose.

There is no win scenario here for Elektronite in a public airing of all this stuff.

No doubt Elektronite is a well run, professional business.

Everything they do underscores this. The quality of their product, the fact that they use official licenses and go through proper channels....it's in everything they do.

It's normal that they would expect people they do business with to be likewise, and to honor agreements, deadlines and contracts.

Especially if they shelled out money in advance with expectations of meeting a release schedule.

 

HOWEVER, Elektronite caters to a relatively small but impassioned group of hobbyists.

Sure their customer base is more than just here on AA, they are reaching people all over the place that have never even heard of AA.

But this is where the heart of their target customer base is.

In this case, they are also doing business with one of these hobbyists.

 

Groovy in addition to being a very talented programmer, is one of us.

Any public spat is not going to be a positive development for Elektronite, regardless of the validity of the argument.

It can only lead to people feeling they have to choose sides.

 

At best, undermining Groovy would only cause some to question what is going on with the games they've prepaid which have also been delayed somewhat.

 

This is already happening.

This doesn't help Elektronite at all, and only serves to possibly embarrass and/or frustrate Groovy.

 

Has he bitten off a little too much? Maybe.

 

Working on multiple projects simultaneously is his MO.

I can see how that would be more fun and stimulating than being tied to one project and becoming bored/burnt out or having a programmers version of "writers block".

 

At the end of the day, I believe Groovy will deliver and that everyone will be very happy with what he has put together for each of his projects.

It's a labor of love, and one I hope he will continue after his slate of projects is finished.

If he feels slighted/embarrassed/angry about having a lot of this played out publicly, and decides not to do any more INTY projects, we all lose, Elektronite included.

 

Let's stop this before it goes any further.

 

*edited: whats with the wall of text when posting through Tapatalk?*

[+DZ-Jay]

And to beat an old, stinky, rotten, dead horse (because I'm still in "moving mode" and have limited access to this forum, so I missed most of the action), I'd like to point out that I am a very patient man, and will support Groovy in any of his projects, no matter how long they take.

 

I am not sorry for pre-paying his games, and I will do so again, because I know that they will be awesome when completed. And I will wait whatever it takes.

 

My objection was an intra-forum bitch-fest, a friendly discussion between community members, regarding which games or which client has a higher priority. I never meant to suggest that it was directed at Groovy himself, nor that I was in some way demanding him to complete his games immediately.

 

As I said before: Groovy, we love you man! Finish them games and start making more! I'll pre-pay and fund Groovybee's projects any day of the week--and twice on Sundays!

 

And just like Rev said, that awesome, gorgeous, action-packed Rocketeer game.... That's what it's all about!

 

Now, bring in the bacon, and carry on.

[B0B 1ob1aw]

You know what Ignorama, I guess I just can't talk to you, I am not sure if it is the language barrier or what.....so I apologize for how you understood things from me......I tried, I just don't know how else to explain..

 

Language barrier and Culture Clash. But seriously, the flaming here is insignificant to most forums I belong too - many of them have people that get perma-banned routinely.

 

 

[vprette]

Few comments I'd like to add here, to clarify the situation and cool down.

It's not a question of delivery time. Deadlines are of corse an urgent point for Elektronite since we deal with printing of manuals and overlays, we need to optimize the printing process to avoid additional costs (that are very high when coming to the printing process due to top quality we have looked for), and optimize printing means for us to capture the right screens from candidate rom as well as write precise commands on overlays.

But this kind of tasks can be reasonnably affected by delay in development and we do know that inty developers do work as a second job and have personal priorities in life.

The point is more related to quality of product and Elektronite people (me, willy, artists and testers) as well as respecting payment deal and contents of beta deliveries.

We are at the moment not able to testify the status of the work that is apparently claimed to be 95% ready but not approved by elektronite being not available a beta rom to test. Payment terms are becoming a discussion item and the game is now delayed. Delay of HB may result in delay in starting development of Dotc, GR or other candidate titles since Willy need to anticipate money, and get back investment to anticipate for the next one.

I'm used to have no issues with anyones, expecially when speaking about a passion, hobby or whatever you want to call it as it was started 10 year ago for me.

When we deal with license owner like Llamasoft (or Cinemware, or Apogee) we have to sign agreements from our side and people expect us to respect delivery and quality. Otherwise we cannot plan for 3-4 new games per year, maybe not even 1.

 

Not complaining here, but worried about HB delivery after lot of work I have personally done on this project.

Edited September 12, 2013 by vprette

[108 Stars]

All good and well, but the simple problem is:

Why discuss this in public here? Why not go the professional way and get the matter resolved in private, and only make a public statement on the problems if they cannot be resolved at all?

 

Sometimes, especially when you're running a business you just have to stay silent and consider well what and when to communicate to the public.

 

All you should have said was "There is no release date for Hover Bovver at this point"... in the correct thread. You did not take paid pre-orders I understand, you are under no obligation to explain details about a possible delay to customers.

 

Instead, you posted in this thread, making details public about your issues with Mark; this can only result in poisoning the air around the Intellivision community, and putting both yourself and GroovyBee in a bad light. And it sure won't help the talks between Elektronite and Mark.

 

It was a bad move business-wise and for the community to go out and wash dirty laundry in public at this point. Now that Elektronite is a real business, with geat products and all, you have to consider not posting like you would as a private person, but being cautious since you represent your company.

[vprette]

All good and well, but the simple problem is:

Why discuss this in public here? Why not go the professional way and get the matter resolved in private, and only make a public statement on the problems if they cannot be resolved at all?

 

Sometimes, especially when you're running a business you just have to stay silent and consider well what and when to communicate to the public.

 

All you should have said was "There is no release date for Hover Bovver at this point"... in the correct thread. You did not take paid pre-orders I understand, you are under no obligation to explain details about a possible delay to customers.

 

Instead, you posted in this thread, making details public about your issues with Mark; this can only result in poisoning the air around the Intellivision community, and putting both yourself and GroovyBee in a bad light. And it sure won't help the talks between Elektronite and Mark.

 

It was a bad move business-wise and for the community to go out and wash dirty laundry in public at this point. Now that Elektronite is a real business, with geat products and all, you have to consider not posting like you would as a private person, but being cautious since you represent your company.

this is why I do not see this only as a business: I try to work in professional way, but I want to see new inty games mostly. Any point of view that would be shared here to help speed up the HB delivery is welcome.

You can also see my posts in this thread are very rare, and only done to clarify since people was speculating about the commercial agreement and delivery dates..

Peple that say nothing are usually hiding things.... we are open to criticism and partecipate to the forums since we are collectors like you

Edited September 12, 2013 by vprette

[Foom]

Valter, thank you for your recent posts.

 

As Valter is now responding to this thread, and I have stated what I wanted to state, I am going to move on to other topics. Before I go, I will say this:

 

- Again, the fact that GB prefers to work on multiple projects at once does not give him license to give less than a full effort to a contract assignment. I have been a professional software developer for many years, and I know what is expected of a developer.

 

- Elektronite only posted about the issues with Hover Bovver after GB has spent months posting verbosely about all of the work that he had done on Rocketeer. Again, I am not an agent of Elektronite, but, from what I understand from this thread, GB did not notify Elektronite during negotiations that he was planning on creating another game during the period of time when it was expected that he would be working on Hover Bovver. And clearly, GB gave Rocketeer high priority during this time.

 

- From what I have read from the Elektronite posters, there is now a situation where Hover Bovver beta ROMs have been delayed. Elektronite has a responsibility to alert its customers if there are issues delaying a game. I agree that they should only go into as much detail as necessary. Given the situation, I think that Elektronite in general has been quite reserved in its comments.

 

- Further to this, I thank Valter for emphasizing that Hover Bovver is an officially licensed release. In general, the granters of such licenses impose conditions on the development company regarding release deadlines and quality assurance. I have no doubt that GB was fully aware of this from the beginning. Valter has indicated that, currently, the time issues are not the primary issues. I hope that things are resolved before delivery dates do become a critical issue.

 

- This situation is NOT normal in the software development world. This is not just an Intellivision hobby issue, it is an issue of agreements between professional parties, and is worthy of discussion.

 

- I find the viewpoint that Rocketeer should be completed before Hover Bovver quite ridiculous. This has nothing to do with the fact that I am friends with the owner of Elektronite. I would have said this regardless of the parties involved. However, I respect the right of those who disagree with me to have their opinion. I cannot fathom however how they can justify holding that opinion.

 

- If posts praising GB for creating Rocketeer in these circumstances are welcome in this thread, then it is only fair that those who disagree be allowed to post as well. This is an Intellivision discussion group, not the GB fan club. To those who say that I should not have posted on this topic, I ask them this: have they never posted critical comments in other threads?

 

- I wish Elektronite and GB the best of luck in coming to an understanding and resolving these issues.

 

- Doug

[Rev]

" We are at the moment not able to testify the status of the work that is apparently claimed to be 95% ready but not approved by elektronite being not available a beta rom to test. Payment terms are becoming a discussion item and the game is now delayed. Delay of HB may result in delay in starting development of Dotc, GR or other candidate titles since Willy need to anticipate money, and get back investment to anticipate for the next one. ". ~ Vprette

 

----------------

 

Payment terms? Sounds to me like someone needs to pay groovybee.

 

End of discussion.

[slab0meat]

" We are at the moment not able to testify the status of the work that is apparently claimed to be 95% ready but not approved by elektronite being not available a beta rom to test. Payment terms are becoming a discussion item and the game is now delayed. Delay of HB may result in delay in starting development of Dotc, GR or other candidate titles since Willy need to anticipate money, and get back investment to anticipate for the next one. ". ~ Vprette

 

----------------

 

Payment terms? Sounds to me like someone needs to pay groovybee.

 

End of discussion.

 

HOW is it "end of discussion" when you're speculating on what that quote meant?

 

"Sounds to me" does not equate to "is", though it COULD be.

[slab0meat]

- If posts praising GB for creating Rocketeer in these circumstances are welcome in this thread, then it is only fair that those who disagree be allowed to post as well. This is an Intellivision discussion group, not the GB fan club. To those who say that I should not have posted on this topic, I ask them this: have they never posted critical comments in other threads?

 

 

It pretty much is the GroovyBee fan club. And don't misunderstand me, I've pre-paid (it's NOT pre-ordered, no matter what anyone wants to say) for his two current offerings. He's also been nothing but very kind to me in our PM's. Seems like a very good guy, though I don't have a lot to go on. However, disagreeing with certain people and/or opinions isn't a smart thing to do, unless you like insulting replies, being talked down to, or disbelief that you do not share the same thinking and are somehow wrong.