STUNT CAR RACER?

[snicklin]

This has to be up there with the very, very best of games on the Atari. I'd put this alongside Space Harrier, a bit ahead of Yoomp! and Head over Heels.

[+MrFish]

The car pictures of Test Drive (converted with G2F) are already available at atarionline and the G2F webpage (pics 163-167), so 1% of the job is already done...

 

But maybe we should start a new topic about Test Drive and not derail this topic much further ?!?

 

Kaz did a really nice job on those "Top Drive" pictures.

Edited March 9, 2018 by MrFish

[kiwilove]

Test Drive really sucked as a game - you could name any other road racer etc that would be more worthy of your time to spend converting it over...

Test Drive promised - and never delivered.

No one mentioned Revs? But I couldn't get into it - so it's not on my recommended list.

 

Harvey

Edited March 9, 2018 by kiwilove

[emkay]

Test Drive really sucked as a game - you could name any other road racer etc that would be more worthy of your time to spend converting it over...

Test Drive promised - and never delivered.

No one mentioned Revs? But I couldn't get into it - so it's not on my recommended list.

 

Harvey

REVS ? That game looks horrible. all too big fixed graphics and the road is still chunky and flat.

Test Drive has that "Simulation" touch and plays fine on 16 bit machines.

It's only sucking on the C64 with it's 3 to 6 fps.

[Marius]

My favourite race game will always be outrun but that is only because of the in-game tunes. I still love that music. It is really adding something irreplaceable.

 

But why isn't this thread about stunt car racer anymore? It is absolutely fabulous. Sh*t up and go play! It's worth It!

[VladR]

I'm only surprised nobody yet mentioned StunRunner. That game would work just fine with the visual style of SCR (e.g. wireframe + occasional flatshading when crossing horizon).

[Heaven/TQA]

Formular 1 Grand Prix?

[emkay]

I'm only surprised nobody yet mentioned StunRunner. That game would work just fine with the visual style of SCR (e.g. wireframe + occasional flatshading when crossing horizon).

Because no homecomputer showed a playable version that... anyhow ... got equal to the Arcade ?

The LYNX showed a very nice version.

 

The chance for the Atari version is to use Gr. 7 .... have a look at Yoomp! , and to give it some "direction" in movement.

Wireframe is the worst case, as you have to do all 3D calculations without many on the screen going on.

 

Test drive would work well , using PMg for "flood filling" big screen areas and using any character mode for lineups and some moving objects. That's why hires for that game would do fine.

[twh/f2]

Got my original & licensed copy of Stunt Car Racer today!! My tribute to Mr. Geoff Crammond It has a very nice manual and is cross platform (ST, Amiga, C64 , PC , Spectrum).

 

 

I think I'm preparing a little "Atari XL/XE 128KB" sticker for the box

 

grüße,

twh

[VladR]

Because no homecomputer showed a playable version that... anyhow ... got equal to the Arcade ?

It doesn't have to be "equal to arcade". Is SRC visually equal to its fully flatshaded counterparts on ST/Amiga ? No, and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

 

StunRunner would be displaying same 4 track segments, as SRC does, no difference there, but it wouldn't have to do the complex physics. Plus, the 3D camera is faster than in SRC (I know, as I coded it on jag). Though that would be offset by the 3D meshes.

 

 

The chance for the Atari version is to use Gr. 7 .... have a look at Yoomp! , and to give it some "direction" in movement.

Wireframe is the worst case, as you have to do all 3D calculations without many on the screen going on.

Yoomp is about as close to being 3D as pac-man, so not sure why you mention it. Here we need a 3D track, 3D camera, also do transform&clipping. I would rather go for 160x96x4, just like Star Raiders. Much faster clearing and smoother movement, due to lower number of scanlines.

 

Test drive would work well , using PMg for "flood filling" big screen areas and using any character mode for lineups and some moving objects. That's why hires for that game would do fine.

Forget char mode. Even in 160x96, and a brute-force method, given the amount of screen that is filled, it's doable under 100,000 cycles, which is like 15fps (minus cars&objects).

The PMGs wouldn't actually help with flood filling, as you need a fine edge between road&mountain (impossible with PMG's resolution), it's the edge traversal that takes majority of performance. Once you have the address of the Left edge of the mountain, the remaining unrolled fill (4 pixels per STA) is about 10-15% of the whole number of cycles of the full frame. You might as well do it.

 

Also, given the core game design feature of TestDrive (hardcoded mountain on right side of screen, 100% of the time), you can actually replace the 8-cycle combo of STA (vidPtr),Y + INY with a 4-cycle STA (fully unrolled) and just jump into the corresponding edge address for given scanline. This would reduce the actual fillrate cost by 50%, right there (and still fit within 64 KB) - but obviously - 50% of 10% is not much

Since you're redrawing 50-75% of the screen (road+mountain), you don't have to clear it, which is a huge cycle boost as well.

 

Unfortunately, there still wouldn't be any game to play, even if TestDrive ran at 12-15 fps

[Gunstar]

Everybody is talking about how bad Test Drive is/was, but who the hell cares? Who says it can't be improved and game elements added that actually make it fun? Why would it have to be an exact clone? If it wasn't good on other micros, why does it stand it has to be bad on Atari too? Maybe think of it as more of a Need For Speed when it's being made, starting with the Test Drive core, for something to port, but add in crashes and cops and maybe someone to race against. But really ask why are the other versions of Test Drive bad and change it enough so the A8 version is good. I always had fun with the ST version though myself.

 

Imagine that Ballblazer and RoF weren't ever done on the A8, but just the other 8-bits out there. How do all those other versions compare to the Atari? Would they have been classic hits without the original Atari versions? Other versions I've tried suck in comparison. Well just take up the challenge to do Test Drive right on the A8. Make it look like the other versions were just poor ports. Isn't that sort of what was just done here with the A8 version of SCR, compared to all other 8-bit versions? If the 16-bit versions never existed of SCR, I would have thought the same about doing it on the A8 as some do about Test Drive, because what I've seen sucks on all other 8-bit versions. But then there is the awesome proof that is SCR A8!

Edited March 10, 2018 by Gunstar

[Heaven/TQA]

Everybody is talking about how bad Test Drive is/was, but who the hell cares? Who says it can't be improved and game elements added that actually make it fun? Why would it have to be an exact clone? If it wasn't good on other micros, why does it stand it has to be bad on Atari too? Maybe think of it as more of a Need For Speed when it's being made, starting with the Test Drive core, for something to port, but add in crashes and cops and maybe someone to race against. But really ask why are the other versions of Test Drive bad and change it enough so the A8 version is good. I always had fun with the ST version though myself.

 

Imagine that Ballblazer and RoF weren't ever done on the A8, but just the other 8-bits out there. How do all those other versions compare to the Atari? Would they have been classic hits without the original Atari versions? Other versions I've tried suck in comparison. Well just take up the challenge to do Test Drive right on the A8. Make it look like the other versions were just poor ports. Isn't that sort of what was just done here with the A8 version of SCR, compared to all other 8-bit versions? If the 16-bit versions never existed of SCR, I would have thought the same about doing it on the A8 as some do about Test Drive, because what I've seen sucks on all other 8-bit versions. But then there is the awesome proof that is SCR A8!

It has to be the same core game as if taken Test Drive it would use an existing engine/code as core.... and normally adding elements to a game running in a sandbox on a8 is not possible without rewriting most of it by yourself.

[Jacques]

Sorry, but why do people claim TD is bad? For me Test Drive I and mostly II were very good Amiga games. As for C64, well... Probably 8-bit Atari could cope better with it.

[emkay]

Imagine that Ballblazer and RoF weren't ever done on the A8, but just the other 8-bits out there. How do all those other versions compare to the Atari? Would they have been classic hits without the original Atari versions? Other versions I've tried suck in comparison. Well just take up the challenge to do Test Drive right on the A8. Make it look like the other versions were just poor ports. Isn't that sort of what was just done here with the A8 version of SCR, compared to all other 8-bit versions? If the 16-bit versions never existed of SCR, I would have thought the same about doing it on the A8 as some do about Test Drive, because what I've seen sucks on all other 8-bit versions. But then there is the awesome proof that is SCR A8!

You got the point . And even after the Atari "emulates" C64 features in the code, SCR is faster on the Atari.

Rescue on Fractalus still was way faster on the Atari after some speed optimizations on the C64.

What happens, when games get some speed optimization, you see in Amaurote and other Spectrum conversions.

 

But, you have never seen a game, optimized AND generally build for the A8.

 

Coders prefer nitpicking if a code is worth it or not.

It's also a miracle why 16 bit 3D calculations should be bothered with, while the used resolution isn't even 4 bit and the depth movement is similar to a slideshow.

No wonder, the Atari is that handicapped with the available software.

The rule of "when is a game 3D on 8 bits" is easily to answer, as it seems : If the C64 can do it, it is 3D .

Particular, if you have a closer look at Test Drive, you see there is less 3D going on than one might realize. But the game is presented 3D and offers some "simulation" touch.

Possibly a conversion is allowed, but an optimized Version for the Atari cannot be. If it doesn't do what "the other machine" does, it isn't worthy.

X, Y, Z calculations, fitting to the resolution.... more isn't needed ... less is done on the C64, more could be possible on the Atari.

Using the Atari "not the C64" way, would make the game running really fluent. As "3D" calculations only count on the reaction of the gameplay and graphical response. And that is the only real part of where 3D calculations were needed. Everything else is some "out of this planet" thinking.

Moaning on some single "not 3D" correct moving pixels that act correct on the movement of the graphics... this doesn't belong to old 8 bit computers.

It's just unbelievable "WHY" things stall...

Still today 3D isn't really 3D. It's still 3D calculations with additional help of rasterizers. But it isn't allowed to use the rasterizing features of the Atari, supported by some relevant 3D calculations, to get playable "3D games" .

 

... I could write on and on about that nonsense.

Edited March 10, 2018 by emkay

[VladR]

Everybody is talking about how bad Test Drive is/was, but who the hell cares? Who says it can't be improved and game elements added that actually make it fun? Why would it have to be an exact clone? If it wasn't good on other micros, why does it stand it has to be bad on Atari too? Maybe think of it as more of a Need For Speed when it's being made, starting with the Test Drive core, for something to port, but add in crashes and cops and maybe someone to race against. But really ask why are the other versions of Test Drive bad and change it enough so the A8 version is good. I always had fun with the ST version though myself.

Of course it can be made fun. We all know which racing features work and which don't. But the implementation cost/effort of building a brand new optimized engine AND new gameplay on top of that are quite steep.

 

... starting with the Test Drive core, for something to port, but add in crashes and cops and maybe someone to race against...

Unfortunately, this does not make sense with TD, unlike SRC. On SRC, it would have made sense (not sure if they did) to just replace the 3D engine, as the core gameplay is really fun.

But TestDrive on C64 doesn't have either great engine, nor great/deep gameplay. Really, the only thing we could reuse from it is probably the main screen, menu and cockpit gfx

Once you have the optimized 3D engine running, creating the TestDrive gameplay would be at most a week of work. You'd loose way more time trying to debug and figure out all the other limitations of the current C64 code than rewriting that gameplay from scratch. Salvaging machine code costs way more time than just rewriting the damn thing in the first place...

 

Coders prefer nitpicking if a code is worth it or not.

It's also a miracle why 16 bit 3D calculations should be bothered with, while the used resolution isn't even 4 bit and the depth movement is similar to a slideshow.

In my 6502 flatshading thread, I have about a page worth of research on the 8-bit vs 16-bit coordinates. In short, while 8-bit precision is possible, it's only marginally useable as its precision is [obviously] quite rough. But, hopefully by the end of this weekend I'll find out if it's enough for a track (like in SRC/StunRunner).

 

Particular, if you have a closer look at Test Drive, you see there is less 3D going on than one might realize. But the game is presented 3D and offers some "simulation" touch.

Possibly a conversion is allowed, but an optimized Version for the Atari cannot be. If it doesn't do what "the other machine" does, it isn't worthy.

X, Y, Z calculations, fitting to the resolution.... more isn't needed ... less is done on the C64, more could be possible on the Atari.

Using the Atari "not the C64" way, would make the game running really fluent. As "3D" calculations only count on the reaction of the gameplay and graphical response. And that is the only real part of where 3D calculations were needed. Everything else is some "out of this planet" thinking.

Moaning on some single "not 3D" correct moving pixels that act correct on the movement of the graphics... this doesn't belong to old 8 bit computers.

It's just unbelievable "WHY" things stall...

Still today 3D isn't really 3D. It's still 3D calculations with additional help of rasterizers. But it isn't allowed to use the rasterizing features of the Atari, supported by some relevant 3D calculations, to get playable "3D games" .

 

... I could write on and on about that nonsense.

I read it, like, 3 times, but - uhm, what ?!?

[emkay]

I read it, like, 3 times, but - uhm, what ?!?

Write it shorter?

 

The discussion at which degree a game is "real 3D" on such old computers is senseless!

[Heaven/TQA]

Its not... you know that...

[Foebane]

My favourite racing game on Amiga by far (bought it on budget back in the 1990s and was totally impressed). However, I cannot seem to win a race without using the booster, and I keep that button pressed down when it's necessary (like when my tyres are gripped to the road) although it's pot luck if I can complete all three laps before the growing chassis crack wrecks my stunt car.

 

Great, GREAT A8 conversion, however!

[Mclaneinc]

I seem to sometimes not be able to boost while perfectly flat to the ground, I must admit I have not had a chance to chect the boost meter but I am not a boost freak as boosting always increases the chance of structural damage, don't know if its just me, the boost comes in, stops, comes in and so on, not always but it just felt odd compared to the Amiga version.

 

Not a critique, I love the Atari version, I never thought I'd see this game on my 8 bit, total shocker but a perfect surprise by Irg and all involved..

 

Hats off to you guys for this port..

 

As for the 3D gripes / discussion, I put my faith in our devs doing the best for our Atari, by now they know what it can and can't do, the calc has been done a million times in demo's and previous games to push the limits, I think they know what the Atari can do by now.

 

Yet they still amaze the non programmers like me with releases like this, you can only optimise so far before you hit the wall and that wall can't be moved..

Edited March 11, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[Gunstar]

Practice makes perfect. Use the practice mode to learn a track. I have gotten steadily better at the game, and can advance from division 4 to 3, in career mode, but still not good enough to get past division 3 yet. But since I haven't been able to get the save feature to work, I get lots of practice just getting back to were I made it the last time I played.

 

I don't think it's possible to win a race, in the Atari version, without using boost as much as possible and smartly. You also can't use boost the entire time, even if you had the fuel for it, or G-forces throw you from curves, etc. It's all about using boost as much as possible and managing it. Especially if you intend to get on the high-score thing online (personally I can't as it doesn't work for me). Apparently Xbios is very finicky, on purpose, under what conditions it works, and my machine goes against it's rules.

 

Stunt Car Racer is absolutely fantastic in my book, not a thing wrong with it. My issues are caused by Xbios.

[emkay]

I don't think it's possible to win a race, in the Atari version, without using boost as much as possible and smartly. You also can't use boost the entire time, even if you had the fuel for it, or G-forces throw you from curves, etc. It's all about using boost as much as possible and managing it.

The simulation works well in the game. It's fluent enough to give the impression where to throttle up, boost, and where to slow down .

[+MrFish]

Yoomp is about as close to being 3D as pac-man, so not sure why you mention it. Here we need a 3D track, 3D camera, also do transform&clipping.

 

Let's have some respect here. Yoomp might not be STUN Runner, but it's 3D effects have been done well.

[emkay]

Let's have some respect here. Yoomp might not be STUN Runner, but it's 3D effects have been done well.

You could explain to VladR that his "needed details for 3D in the related game" were not done on the C64. The presentation IS Yoomp! like, but slow as hell.

[+MrFish]

You could explain to VladR that his "needed details for 3D in the related game" were not done on the C64. The presentation IS Yoomp! like, but slow as hell.

 

Why would I want to do that?

 

Yoomp64 looks cool to me, whatever the limitations in comparison...

[VladR]

 

Let's have some respect here. Yoomp might not be STUN Runner, but it's 3D effects have been done well.

I don't mean no disrespect to Yoomp, it's a great game and, like you say, a really nice 3D effect.

 

But, we've had this exact discussion with emkay before that there's a huge difference in 3D engine features between Yoomp and, say, SRC.

 

SRC has to do:

World/View/Perspective Transformations

Frustum culling

Clipping

Rasterizing lines

Flatshading polygons

Flying Physics in 3d coordinate system

 

Features, that for obvious reasons, don't have to be done by Yoomp. Hence why I said pac-man (a short for the feature list above).