JagChris Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Of course the Zoop dev comment is 100% a joke. The lo-fi visuals are the same on all platforms. False statement. The PSX version is indeed 'snazzier' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 False statement. The PSX version is indeed 'snazzier' Outside of special effects, there's not a huge difference from the weakest (not counting portables) to the most powerful platforms. That's why it's a joke. The point of Zoop is not looks and there's no reason Sony would give a rat's ass about a platform that it outsold the lifetime sales of in its launch month in Japan (and would have did it sooner if not for lack of stock). Genesis: Atari Jaguar: PlayStation: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) Wow. Testimony from a developer, and a tortured argument as to why your statement isn't false. Ok. Every reasonable person can look at those visuals you just posted or watching videos on YouTube for themselves and see the enhanced visuals of the PSX version. It's obvious you guys are just doubling down on a viewpoint even when strong evidence to the contrary shows up. No real discussion going on here. Edited February 15, 2019 by JagChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wow. Testimony from a developer, and a tortured argument as to why your statement isn't false. Ok. Every reasonable person can look at those visuals you just posted or watching videos on YouTube for themselves and see the enhanced visuals of the PSX version. It's obvious you guys are just doubling down on a viewpoint even when strong evidence to the contrary shows up. No real discussion going on here. Wow is right. You don't think the smiley winky face means anything? Really? And you don't think Zoop is basically the same game and same looking game on all non-portable platforms? Yes, I'm sure there was much hand-wringing behind-the-scenes at Sony about having the best-looking version of Zoop rather than say, the best looking and performing polygon-based games... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wow is right. You don't think the smiley winky face means anything? Really? And you don't think Zoop is basically the same game and same looking game on all non-portable platforms? Wasting your time trying to reason with Rose Tinted Blinkered Shove it in the Freezer guy, Bill 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Wasting your time trying to reason with Rose Tinted Blinkered Shove it in the Freezer guy, Bill No doubt, but I'd love to know some reasons why, even if they're a bit "out there," let's say... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 I told you what I thought the smiley winky face meant Bill but of course you're ignoring that. What a surprise. You know it's not so much that I believe or disbelieve a Zoop or Rayman conspiracy. it's just the more you guys talk the more unreasonable you guys sound. You guys are so full of highbrow certainties. It's just that I don't believe you guys. New evidence shows up and you guys double down. Hell you may be right but you guys don't even consider anything else. Bill you just twisted a semantics pretzel into why your false statement wasn't false. And CJ when we want to know how to colorise an 8bit game then we'll want your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 And CJ when we want to know how to colorise an 8bit game then we'll want your input.Isn't he cute? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Isn't he cute? Only when he looks at himself in a mirror with the glasses on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 And CJ when we want to know how to colorise an 8bit game then we'll want your input. When you manage to create something as good as an 8bit game, let me know, and I'll explain it to you gladly. Don't use an API like RAPTOR though, use the one you'll write yourself. We'll be waitin' 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 CJ I wouldn't ask you to explain anything to me. I'd just get bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 CJ I wouldn't ask you to explain anything to me. I'd just get bullshit. Or, as others would call it, facts based in reality and trial and error. People hear what they want (like) to hear, I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Like where I said to put the JsgCD in a freezer? Or when you made up that licensing story about Another World? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Like where I said to put the JsgCD in a freezer? Or when you made up that licensing story about Another World? 1. No, Like I quoted you from years ago. 2. No, when it was true. Chris, it really gets tiresome pointing out how wrong you are. Can you stop now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 I think it's time for JagChris to take a break from this thread. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummy Bear Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 you guys you guys You guys you guys you guys you guys 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) "According to Aaron Fothergill, one of the programmers for the Atari Jaguar version of Zoop, Electric Spectacle Productions wanted the Jaguar version to have more advanced visuals than the PlayStation version, however, Viacom requested the developer to disable the extra graphics in order to make the latter version more appealing than the former version" That's the blurb from that bastion of credible information, Wikipedia :-)) So has this single source Aaron, done what's referred to as a "Whittaker" and put the blame on 2 different parties when giving the same tale at different points? As for the PlayStation version being the best looking version at the time, we are talking a puzzle game that like most classic puzzle games,was created to be functional and not with any sort of wow factor in mind..Tetris,Bust-A-Move,Pipemania etc. This was not exactly in the realms of Phear was it? Damn thing didn't exactly set PlayStation reviews alight.. EGM 5/10 Game Pro 5/10 Straws being clutched spring to mind. Personally, if there's any conspiracy left to silence in the Jaguar community,i would not mind someone clearing up who made the decision to texture map SuperCross 3D on the Jaguar.. Leonard Tramiel or Tiertex. Much more of a story there as Martin Brownlaw blames Tramiel, but supposedly the coder of Supercross claims it was Tiertex management. Edited February 15, 2019 by Lost Dragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 _20190214_121805.JPG Well these things did and do happen. Here's a confirmed Zoop conspiracy by the developer. Sorry, but this really needs to be broken down and dragged kicking and screaming into the cold light of day. 1.It's a single,throw away statement, complete with smiley face , from a single source. There's nothing to back it up from anyone at Viacom or Sony.. 2.Aaron has been kind enough to chat in more detail about the Jaguar version of Zoop: You helped program Zoop for the Atari Jaguar. How easy was it to create games for Jag compared to other platforms? I actually enjoyed it. The Jaguar was the first console I worked on as part of a team (having shut my own company by then and gone to work for Electric Spectacle in Newcastle). So I got to focus on specific parts rather than the whole game in one go. I did rather like getting down and dirty with the DSP chips and we even found a hardware bug on the version of the 68020 chip they were using that made one of the instructions fail. And from same interview, he's quite happy to point out he's no artist: You have worked on a number of games with your brother Adam. What was it like working with your brother and was there ever any sibling clashes or friendly rivalry? I think we’re lucky in that our skill sets complement one another. I can’t draw for toffee.. https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/aaron-fothergill/ So i am not exactly sure at this point just what nature the enhanced Jaguar graphics would of taken or what you were expecting.. 3.He's also been happy to chat about the very nature of the games industry : We saw a lot of snobbery from software houses and publishers because we were using AMOS and STOS, which is why we tended not to mention it. Europress were really good in letting us not include the "Written with STOS/AMOS" badges on the games to avoid this problem. Both Jetstrike and Base Jumpers used specific AMOS extensions written in 68k to boost them a bit but they were primarily AMOS. https://www.amigapd.com/interview-aaron-and-adam-fothergill.html Sorry Chris, but your really reading far too much into a throwaway comment Arron made. Can you honestly see Sony, who had the likes of Ridge Racer next to Jaguar WTR, Tekken and Toh Shin Den next to Fight For Life, MK3 next to Ultra Vortex, let alone exclusives like Wipeout, really feeling there was a threat from the Jaguar with Zoop of all things and thus placed demands on the developers to tone it down? The same Sony who as Team 17 have testified, were very reluctant to have Worms on the PlayStation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Zoop TV advert.. Game not sold on it's visuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) So... Remind me again.... How did we get from a supposed conspiracy about a once flagship Jaguar platform game, by Ubisoft which began life as a simple animation demo on the Atari ST and began life proper as a SNES CD title, that ended up as a multi platform title, with annouced 3DO and 32X versions never appearing... To a simple puzzle game by Hookstone that Viacom media published across multiple platforms, a game that's basically a real time version of Plotting by Taito. A game intended to be the next Tetris... A game who's "opti-challenge" graphics were supposedly it's unique selling point and are just the game throwing in distracting background's. ... Backgrounds use various asymmetrical elements and clashing colour choices to play tricks on what your seeing (and they put a patent on this effect?) . So even if we assume this opti challenge effect was enhanced or different for the original version compared to the Playstation version, it wouldn't of made a lick of real difference, it would still of been a simple looking puzzle game with background visual tricks. That's one almighty leap in terms of join the dots. Please present the strong evidence. A disposable comment complete with smiley face doesn't fall under that category by the longest of shots. Edited February 15, 2019 by Lost Dragon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Ok..so, until further information comes forth from Aaron or anyone else who worked on Jaguar Zoop or from Viacom or Sony.. And to prevent this thread getting locked or turning into a mud slinging match. A past example of why it's vital to get multiple sources on the more, ahem, curious claims. Not so long ago, Guru Larry ran a YT Video supposedly detailing times developers had be ripped off by publishers in the games industry and there was a claim that Matthew Gosling of Zero 5 (Jaguar) fame, felt Telegames and Atari UK had ripped him/Caspain Software off. Matthew was the only source quoted and his views of course we're his own.. But they caused a degree of anger and upset with Darryl Still who pointed out nobody had approached him for Atari UK's side of the story and if they had, he would of explained it. He also made clear nobody had approached Caspain Softwares boss (indeed i believe the person who gave Larry the information, was not even aware if who that was..) and had said boss been approached, people would be aware of his side of events. When stories are reported as fact based on the briefest of comments from a single source, they leave themselves wide open and often don't stand up to close scrutiny. Bill has proven himself as a credible writer, i have bought and very much enjoyed works by him and he takes a similar investigative approach to matters as many of us have come to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 _20190214_121805.JPG Well these things did and do happen. Here's a confirmed Zoop conspiracy by the developer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Does anyone know if those Rayman sprites are 256 color sprites or 16 bit? I know the background tiles are 16 bit, but I mean the enemies and stuff. I think its 256 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) There was a debate about how many colours the game actually uses, here: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=79669 And here: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?6965-Atari-Jaguar/page13 General discussion about what was wrong with PC port: https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12642 Multiple platform comparison discussion here: https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24572 Project Manager of Rayman on GBA: "Originally, all sprites were going to pull their colors from a shared palette of 256 colors. That is how the PC version of Rayman was built. Similarly, the PlayStation version used a large number of colors. This was fine, but the ROM footprint for sprites using that many colors is much larger and requires more time to transfer, especially on the Game Boy Advance. It dropped the frame rate to about 15-30 frames per second. The solution was to bring the sprites down to 16 palettes of 16 colors. This was difficult, because before that, the sprites shared a large common palette. Again, the artists had to redraw all the sprites and wisely select color palettes. The amount of work paid off, as the result looked nearly identical to the revision before it, and we accelerated the game to acceptable speeds." https://www.gamespot.com/articles/qanda-rayman-advance/1100-2718137/ Edited February 16, 2019 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) The easiest way to put this whole Zoop affair to bed is for the team to be contacted: Electric Spectacle Productions, Ltd. (Jaguar Version) Code: Andrew Nixon, Aaron Fothergill Music: InVision Sound Library Art: Adam Fothergill, Steve Field Aaron is on FB and Arcade Attack have his contact details. Adam is on FB. Steve is on FB and was part of the team behind Jaguar Dragon Bruce Lee Story it seems. Games producer at Atari: https://www.facebook.com/lost.action.figures Manuel Sousa lead tester is also on FB. There are people still doing Jaguar interviews and i'm sure plenty on here use FB, i personally don't. So if someone could drop the team a message, i am sure as adults, we could get some clarity on exactly what Aaron meant. There exists such a wealth of information on Rayman already..what became of the SNES version for example: https://www.pressreader.com/ There is no need for any tin foil hat nonsense. Nor is there any need to try and put similar claims to Zoop of all things. The people behind it are easily contactable, i wish people would reach out to them and ask for clarity on what they meant, rather than simply throw quotes out and speculate there was some conspiracy that Sony was somehow afraid of the Jaguar. The Jaguar had already failed at retail by the time Playstation launched, just as industry pundits knew it and the 3DO, 32X, CD32 and all the other in between era type machines would. Edited February 16, 2019 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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