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Atari Jaguar VS Sega Saturn


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#1 sd32 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:21 PM

Whats harder to code for?!! :twisted:

#2 JagChris ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:54 PM

Whats harder to code for?!! :twisted:



Probably the Jaguar by a big margin. Sega had the AM R&D depts 1 thru 4 taking care of the Saturn and making tools or whatnot. Atari had ....REBELLION! THE WORLD RENOWN CODERS/DESIGNERS OF CHECKERED FLAG!!

#3 sd32 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:58 PM

Atari had ....REBELLION! THE WORLD RENOWN CODERS/DESIGNERS OF CHECKERED FLAG!!
[/quote]
Hahaha, those are some great credentials (ok its just one) :D .

#4 stirrell OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:16 PM

Atari had ....REBELLION! THE WORLD RENOWN CODERS/DESIGNERS OF CHECKERED FLAG!!

Hahaha, those are some great credentials (ok its just one) :D .


Hey, but they also developed AvP and Skyhammer. They also did the AvP game for Windows, I believe.

#5 EmOneGarand OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:24 PM

Well the Saturn was also a bitch to program

#6 Gregory DG OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:41 PM

Hey, but they also developed AvP and Skyhammer. They also did the AvP game for Windows, I believe.

Yes, they did the first one. I can't remember who did the second one.

#7 kevincal OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:51 PM

I think you all are getting a little carried away with all of these "vs." threads... ;)

#8 ovalbugmann OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:16 AM

Although the recent Jaguar Vs. 32x, 3dO, cd32, N64, PS3, GORF? and now Sega Saturn threads are very interesting and informative, for people that enjoy learning about and discussing computer hardware systems, like myself, I think GORF is getting a little :woozy: tired of repeating himself over and over to the fans of these other systems and thus his quite detailed presentation of the facts and REAL inner workings of the Atari Jaguar, falls on the deaf ears. So, I wouldn't expect his participation in this thread. After all this is the Jaguar forum, and what else would you expect here but; Jaguar Rules! Anyone can study the specs, games, programming, architecture and working processes of each to come to their own conclusion of which system is the best technically, or most advanced but then the games are what matters most and that falls into personal opinion.

So, if someone has some specific information to consider on the Saturn which is not easily determined thru reading specs and docs on it, such as EmOneGarand's post here, that's great, lets talk about non-obvious hardware and programming facts of the Saturn, since we already know about the Jag's architecture and programming requirements as well as recent programming breakthroughs, and new tools being developed for the Jag, but if these threads are to incite GORF or piss off Jaguar fans then I'm not looking forward to seeing the Jaguar defended again because of confrontational fanboys of other systems who think they know more about the Jaguar than it's die-hard fans.

If that's not the case here, which I hope it's not, then lets talk peaceably about the plusses and minuses of each system without trashing the Jag. :)

Edited by ovalbugmann, Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:05 AM.


#9 Tweety OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:20 AM

Hey, but they also developed AvP and Skyhammer. They also did the AvP game for Windows, I believe.

Yes indeed they did. :)
And you know what I really hate about AvP games? If some have comments about the AvP games and they reveal the history, the Atari Jaguar version is always forgotten to mention about the first Alien vs Predator game. They talk about the comic books and then jump over to the PC scene. :x

#10 EmOneGarand OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:40 AM

Although the recent Jaguar Vs. 32x, 3dO, cd32, N64, PS3, GORF? and now Sega Saturn threads are very interesting and informative, for people that enjoy learning about and discussing computer hardware systems, like myself, I think GORF is getting a little :woozy: tired of repeating himself over and over to the fans of these other systems and thus his quite detailed presentation of the facts and REAL inner workings of the Atari Jaguar, falls on the deaf ears. So, I wouldn't expect his participation in this thread. After all this is the Jaguar forum, and what else would you expect here but; Jaguar Rules! Anyone can study the specs, games, programming, architecture and working processes of each to come to their own conclusion of which system is the best technically, or most advanced but then the games are what matters most and that falls into personal opinion.

So, if someone has some specific information to consider on the Saturn which is not easily determined thru reading specs and docs on it, such as EmOneGarand's post here, that's great, lets talk about non-obvious hardware and programming facts of the Saturn, since we already know about the Jag's architecture and programming requirements as well as recent programming breakthroughs, and new tools being developed for the Jag, but if these threads are to incite GORF or piss off Jaguar fans then I'm not looking forward to seeing the Jaguar defended again because of confrontational fanboys of other systems who think they know more about the Jaguar than it's die-hard fans.

If that's not the case here, which I hope it's not, then lets talk peaceably about the plusses and minuses of each system without trashing the Jag. :)

I don't think Gorf will have to worry about this thread, he got banned cause he couldn't ignore the Rev's insults.. the guy needs to keep his temper in check :/ I really have to wonder why the Rev didn't get banned as well.. he started it. It wasn't entirely fair to punish Gorf.

Edited by EmOneGarand, Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:45 AM.


#11 EmOneGarand OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:40 AM

Hey, but they also developed AvP and Skyhammer. They also did the AvP game for Windows, I believe.

Yes indeed they did. :)
And you know what I really hate about AvP games? If some have comments about the AvP games and they reveal the history, the Atari Jaguar version is always forgotten to mention about the first Alien vs Predator game. They talk about the comic books and then jump over to the PC scene. :x

or the Capcom AvP game

#12 EmOneGarand OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:43 AM

Although the recent Jaguar Vs. 32x, 3dO, cd32, N64, PS3, GORF? and now Sega Saturn threads are very interesting and informative, for people that enjoy learning about and discussing computer hardware systems, like myself, I think GORF is getting a little :woozy: tired of repeating himself over and over to the fans of these other systems and thus his quite detailed presentation of the facts and REAL inner workings of the Atari Jaguar, falls on the deaf ears. So, I wouldn't expect his participation in this thread. After all this is the Jaguar forum, and what else would you expect here but; Jaguar Rules! Anyone can study the specs, games, programming, architecture and working processes of each to come to their own conclusion of which system is the best technically, or most advanced but then the games are what matters most and that falls into personal opinion.

So, if someone has some specific information to consider on the Saturn which is not easily determined thru reading specs and docs on it, such as EmOneGarand's post here, that's great, lets talk about non-obvious hardware and programming facts of the Saturn, since we already know about the Jag's architecture and programming requirements as well as recent programming breakthroughs, and new tools being developed for the Jag, but if these threads are to incite GORF or piss off Jaguar fans then I'm not looking forward to seeing the Jaguar defended again because of confrontational fanboys of other systems who think they know more about the Jaguar than it's die-hard fans.

If that's not the case here, which I hope it's not, then lets talk peaceably about the plusses and minuses of each system without trashing the Jag. :)

Well the Jag and the Saturn are in the same league of Complexity, they had multiple chips that programmers had to deal with, thats why the Saturn was difficult to program for. As Gorf has said, Atari's tools sucked and Sega had a more developed tool set so thats why compared to the Jag the Saturn fared alot better development wise.

#13 fishsandwich OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:28 AM

I've heard (probably from someone on this board) that the Jaguar actually has the edge on the Saturn when it comes to 2-D graphics.

I'm not quite sure how this is possible but I'd like to hear why (I remember reading over and over again in various gaming mags of the time that the Saturn was a true 2-D powerhouse).

No one is going to convince me that the Jaguar was better at 3-D than the Saturn... there's no way the Jaguar could have done full-on ports of Nights, Elan Doree, Burning Rangers, Grandia, Wipeout XL, Fighter's Megamix, Manx TT, or Sonic R (not the best gameplay ever but some extremenly impressive graphics.) Pale imitations, maybe, but no comparable ports. Notice I didn't even bring up Saturn Shenmue until the end.


ps

I love the Jaguar vs Whatever threads, even those that are obviously lopsided (Jaguar vs Master System!)

#14 Fighter17 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:30 AM

I've heard (probably from someone on this board) that the Jaguar actually has the edge on the Saturn when it comes to 2-D graphics.

I'm not quite sure how this is possible but I'd like to hear why (I remember reading over and over again in various gaming mags of the time that the Saturn was a true 2-D powerhouse).

No one is going to convince me that the Jaguar was better at 3-D than the Saturn... there's no way the Jaguar could have done full-on ports of Nights, Elan Doree, Burning Rangers, Grandia, Wipeout XL, Fighter's Megamix, Manx TT, or Sonic R (not the best gameplay ever but some extremenly impressive graphics.) Pale imitations, maybe, but no comparable ports. Notice I didn't even bring up Saturn Shenmue until the end.


ps

I love the Jaguar vs Whatever threads, even those that are obviously lopsided (Jaguar vs Master System!)


QFT.

Personally I think Saturn can outdo the Jaguar in both 2D and 3D. Just because you have many processors in a system doesn't mean it's better. My favorite type of games are shmups and in shmups there's no AI (all enemies are patterns programed to the game).

I'm also having a hardtime trying to believe the Saturn can pull off Radiant Silvergun.

#15 fishsandwich OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:50 AM

QFT.

Personally I think Saturn can outdo the Jaguar in both 2D and 3D. Just because you have many processors in a system doesn't mean it's better. My favorite type of games are shmups and in shmups there's no AI (all enemies are patterns programed to the game).

I'm also having a hardtime trying to believe the Saturn can pull off Radiant Silvergun.



Stupid question-

What's QFT?


I personally don't think the Jaguar can best the Saturn in 2-D either but I've heard that it can from a couple of reliable sources. Now I want to know HOW.

This is all conjecture, of course. I think the best 2-D game on the Jaguar is Rayman. The Saturn's best 2-D titles can easily smoke Rayman (wasn't it an early port to the Saturn and PSone?) but I'd like to know how the Jaguar could have theoretically done more.

#16 Fighter17 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:52 AM

QFT.

Personally I think Saturn can outdo the Jaguar in both 2D and 3D. Just because you have many processors in a system doesn't mean it's better. My favorite type of games are shmups and in shmups there's no AI (all enemies are patterns programed to the game).

I'm also having a hardtime trying to believe the Saturn can pull off Radiant Silvergun.



Stupid question-

What's QFT?


I personally don't think the Jaguar can best the Saturn in 2-D either but I've heard that it can from a couple of reliable sources. Now I want to know HOW.

This is all conjecture, of course. I think the best 2-D game on the Jaguar is Rayman. The Saturn's best 2-D titles can easily smoke Rayman (wasn't it an early port to the Saturn and PSone?) but I'd like to know how the Jaguar could have theoretically done more.


QFT = Quote For Truth. :)

#17 Gunstar ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:45 AM

Whats harder to code for?!! :twisted:



Probably the Jaguar by a big margin. Sega had the AM R&D depts 1 thru 4 taking care of the Saturn and making tools or whatnot. Atari had ....REBELLION! THE WORLD RENOWN CODERS/DESIGNERS OF CHECKERED FLAG!!


HEY! Be fair now, Checkered Flag was a RUSH JOB. It's quite convenient that you left out the fact that they are ALSO the coders/designers of Alien vs. Predator AND Skyhammer, two of the Jaguar's better games...this of course still doesn't mean they did a great job on the dev. tools though, they were also most likely a rush job, but be fair to Rebellion, it's all ATARI'S fault for rushing them and not giving them proper funding, etc. Did you know that they never even got payed for ANY of the games they did for the Jaguar?

Edited by Gunstar, Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:46 AM.


#18 stirrell OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:22 AM

HEY! Be fair now, Checkered Flag was a RUSH JOB. It's quite convenient that you left out the fact that they are ALSO the coders/designers of Alien vs. Predator AND Skyhammer, two of the Jaguar's better games...this of course still doesn't mean they did a great job on the dev. tools though, they were also most likely a rush job, but be fair to Rebellion, it's all ATARI'S fault for rushing them and not giving them proper funding, etc. Did you know that they never even got payed for ANY of the games they did for the Jaguar?


Gunstar - I had never heard that they were never payed for AvP, Checkered Flag. Do you have a link to information about this? I'd be curious to read about it.

#19 fishsandwich OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:43 AM

PAID seriously

#20 Gregory DG OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:12 PM

HEY! Be fair now, Checkered Flag was a RUSH JOB.

It was? Dang. Seems like I waited forever for that game to come out. ;)

#21 JagChris ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:13 PM

Whats harder to code for?!! :twisted:



Probably the Jaguar by a big margin. Sega had the AM R&D depts 1 thru 4 taking care of the Saturn and making tools or whatnot. Atari had ....REBELLION! THE WORLD RENOWN CODERS/DESIGNERS OF CHECKERED FLAG!!


HEY! Be fair now, Checkered Flag was a RUSH JOB. It's quite convenient that you left out the fact that they are ALSO the coders/designers of Alien vs. Predator AND Skyhammer, two of the Jaguar's better games...this of course still doesn't mean they did a great job on the dev. tools though, they were also most likely a rush job, but be fair to Rebellion, it's all ATARI'S fault for rushing them and not giving them proper funding, etc. Did you know that they never even got payed for ANY of the games they did for the Jaguar?



I never heard the part where Rebellion never got paid. I heard about the Zero 5 guys never getting paid.

I dunno about a rush job. I remember Checkered Flag being in development for a year and a half if memory serves. Also, back in the day the fanzine 'WildCat' reported Atari had to send AvP back to Rebellion a few times before releasing it because it was just wasn't up to par.

I have trouble being fair with Rebellion when according to Lance Lewis, Rebellion hadn't watched any of the Alien or Predator movies and even after taking the job, apparently had no intention of doing so, and had to be forced to watch them so they would have some kind of idea what was wanted and what the characters where.

AvP for the Jaguar is a great game but this may have been luck that it turned out that way. I don't give Rebellion too much credit for it.

#22 Punisher5.0 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:29 PM

I don't think Gorf will have to worry about this thread, he got banned cause he couldn't ignore the Rev's insults.. the guy needs to keep his temper in check :/ I really have to wonder why the Rev didn't get banned as well.. he started it. It wasn't entirely fair to punish Gorf.


Gorf isn't banned and Rev got punished.

#23 EmOneGarand OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 PM

I don't think Gorf will have to worry about this thread, he got banned cause he couldn't ignore the Rev's insults.. the guy needs to keep his temper in check :/ I really have to wonder why the Rev didn't get banned as well.. he started it. It wasn't entirely fair to punish Gorf.


Gorf isn't banned and Rev got punished.

well thats good to hear.

#24 Tweety OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:14 AM

or the Capcom AvP game

Aaahhh yes... :D I played the Capcom game several times in the arcade. Those beautiful days...

#25 stirrell OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:44 AM

PAID seriously


D'oh! Thanks for pointing that out. :) Surprisingly, the spellcheck in Firefox didn't pick it up either. But I should have.

I would like to hear more about this story, though. And I do remember that Rebellion had to keep re-working AvP. I think that Atari also had to get approval from the rights-holders for the game (would that have been 20th Century Fox?) I believe that whoever they licensed the characters from had to give final approval before the game could be deemed complete. It is too bad that there wasn't more quality control at Atari. I was shocked by a story in the 7800 forum where one of the executives at Atari said there was one playtester for Impossible Mission (hence it shipping being TRULY impossible).

Edited by stirrell, Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:45 AM.





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