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My Lynx Flash Card / What do you think?


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#51 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:48 PM

And how on earth does this admittedly cool piece of tech in any way seek to encourage the still existing small community of Lynx developers to continue making games today when they know people will find a way of simply PIRATING their games via internet downloads much like the Nintendo DS?

If you don't follow the logic then simply do a little research into what much of the Atari Jaguar coding community think of the proposed Jag CF (Compact Flash) device.

#52 karri OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:12 PM

The small community of developers already have flash carts. The problem is that I don't have the energy to make enough carts to satisfy the demand. So new designs are most welcome.

The use of flash technology opens up exciting new things like combining LynxGPS with GoogleMaps for creating several cart images easily and moving them to your flash cart.

Besides, the Lynx is a hobby for all developers involved. The Lynx is a very interesting piece of hardware. Coding for it is just fun. So I would not be very concerned about the effect of piracy on development.

Besides... Most people using legacy equipment like the Lynx or Jaguar are collectors. So they want the real cart also even if they have a flash cart.

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#53 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:21 PM

If you don't follow the logic then simply do a little research into what much of the Atari Jaguar coding community think of the proposed Jag CF (Compact Flash) device.

We're well aware of that particular bit of insanity, please keep that bullshit contained to the Jag forums - thanks!

Besides... Most people using legacy equipment like the Lynx or Jaguar are collectors. So they want the real cart also even if they have a flash cart.

Exactly, there's no hordes of pirates waiting in the wings all these years to swoop down on dead systems. :roll:

#54 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:36 PM

Besides... Most people using legacy equipment like the Lynx or Jaguar are collectors. So they want the real cart also even if they have a flash cart.

--
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Do you honestly think that developers will still be keen to invest their own valuable time and money into coding new Lynx games in the belief that they'll supposedly see a decent enough financial return when the game could be potentially pirated so easily?

I for one am not convinced that that their returns on investing in game development will be the same or close to as they would be if a Lynx flashcard didn't exist.

Yes, many Lynx (and Jaguar) owners these days may well be "collectors" who would ideally prefer games on the real cart but are you seriously suggesting that many Lynx owners won't be tempted into downloading games for free to a flashcart instead when/if that opportunity is created? Get real!

So, all those people in this thread who've so far rejoiced in the knowledge they'll be potentially able to illegally own/steal all Lynx games made to date will have their short-term jollies. It would be too much to hope that such self-centred individuals would actually stop to consider the consequences of their actions, i.e. they'll actually kill off the Lynx for good leaving it as a truly dead system with no realistic prospect of any new games ever appearing on it ever again.

Rejoice in your theft.....

#55 Mitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:41 PM

So I guess all of the 2600, 5200 and 7800 developers who release the BIN at the same time as the game must be going broke. :ponder:

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#56 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:47 PM

Rejoice in your theft.....

You're either a very clever satirist, or have simply created an account to come here and troll. I'm guessing the latter, so back to 'the other forum' with you, thanks!

Edited by remowilliams, Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:48 PM.


#57 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:57 PM

Rejoice in your theft.....

You're either a very clever satirist, or have simply created an account to come here and troll. I'm guessing the latter, so back to 'the other forum' with you, thanks!


Yes sir, I'll immediately go back to "the other forum" thank you.

I'm guessing you're referring to a forum where its members, en masse, don't actively encourage piracy then?

#58 karri OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:03 PM

Besides... Most people using legacy equipment like the Lynx or Jaguar are collectors. So they want the real cart also even if they have a flash cart.

--
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Do you honestly think that developers will still be keen to invest their own valuable time and money into coding new Lynx games in the belief that they'll supposedly see a decent enough financial return when the game could be potentially pirated so easily?


Yes.

For example the next big project I am working on is Hero Quest. It is a total conversion of a Gamers Worshop title released by Gremlin a long time ago. The small print in their legal pages gives the right for enthusiasts to make new total conversions of their old games. But it does not give the right to take money for it. So how can I release it? Only as a free lnx file on the net like Yastuna 2.

It may come as a surprise but money is not the driving force for Lynx development. Some people just like playing games or coding games. Perhaps it is some kind of insanity.

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#59 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:18 PM

Besides... Most people using legacy equipment like the Lynx or Jaguar are collectors. So they want the real cart also even if they have a flash cart.

--
Karri


Do you honestly think that developers will still be keen to invest their own valuable time and money into coding new Lynx games in the belief that they'll supposedly see a decent enough financial return when the game could be potentially pirated so easily?


Yes.

For example the next big project I am working on is Hero Quest. It is a total conversion of a Gamers Worshop title released by Gremlin a long time ago. The small print in their legal pages gives the right for enthusiasts to make new total conversions of their old games. But it does not give the right to take money for it. So how can I release it? Only as a free lnx file on the net like Yastuna 2.

It may come as a surprise but money is not the driving force for Lynx development. Some people just like playing games or coding games. Perhaps it is some kind of insanity.

--
Karri



Fair points one and all and respect for the Hero Quest project and your rational response.

My point was never to criticise this kind of activity, i.e. new game development - far from it!

All I'm trying to argue is that surely the few developers that are involved in Lynx may not potentially make sufficient money back on their investment to even recoup their development costs. I'm aware that Lynx coders nowadays would never reallistically expect to make a fortune from releasing Lynx games but a device such as the proposed Lynx flashcard would lower any such hopes, however unlikely, even further. This may well put them off altogether as I have previously stated.

If your passion for the Lynx community is such then have you considered releasing Hero Quest on cart like Songbird manage to with their current games therefore making the "need" for a flashcart redundant?

Edited by dreamcastrip, Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:19 PM.


#60 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:24 PM

I'm guessing you're referring to a forum where its members, en masse, don't actively encourage piracy then?

You might want to spend some time reading what has actually happened on the long commercially dead beloved systems of this board that have had flash or other digital storage devices designed and sold for them, and see how they've had positive effects and people still buy up homebrews when they're released and respect the authors.

Or you could just ignore all the reality of history here, it would probably support your argument better.

All I'm trying to argue is that surely the few developers that are involved in Lynx may not potentially make sufficient money back on their investment to even recoup their development costs. ... This may well put them off altogether as I have previously stated.

Please go save another system and/or community. We really don't need your help. Or at least confine it to the Jag forums where people expect nonsense.

#61 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 PM

I'm guessing you're referring to a forum where its members, en masse, don't actively encourage piracy then?

You might want to spend some time reading what has actually happened on the long commercially dead beloved systems of this board that have had flash or other digital storage devices designed and sold for them, and see how they've had positive effects and people still buy up homebrews when they're released and respect the authors.

Or you could just ignore all the reality of history here, it would probably support your argument better.

All I'm trying to argue is that surely the few developers that are involved in Lynx may not potentially make sufficient money back on their investment to even recoup their development costs. ... This may well put them off altogether as I have previously stated.

Please go save another system and/or community. We really don't need your help. Or at least confine it to the Jag forums where people expect nonsense.


This sounds like the kind of nonsense propogated by any such pirate trying hard to convince themselves that stealing software is somehow a good thing for all concerned. I'm sure all homebrew developers, AKA game developers such as Songbird et al, will be rejoicing at the news their intellectual property will be downloaded illegally without them earning a penny from it...

Regarding your claim, "We really don't need your help", well if you're so self-centred and short sighted enough to believe Lynx owners, and by that I mean the law abiding ones, don't need their beloved console protecting from piracy then that's your opinion and although I may not necessarily agree with you on it we are at least entitled to hold our respective opinions.

What of course won't be a matter of opinion, if the proposed flashcart ever sees the light of day, is that anyone downloading existing Lynx games will be breaking the law...

#62 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:18 PM

Regarding your claim, "We really don't need your help", well if you're so self-centred and short sighted enough to believe Lynx owners

I hear the Microvision community calling out for you, please go save them with your delightfully uniformed opinions and leave us all to wallow in the horrible desert we've all created in your absence.

#63 Fadest OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:23 AM

I'm sure all homebrew developers, AKA game developers such as Songbird et al, will be rejoicing at the news their intellectual property will be downloaded illegally without them earning a penny from it...

I don't know if I can be consider as a Lynx developper, but I will give my opinion.
As far as I know, the only hombebrew Lynx games officially released that are available for download are the ones given for free by their developpers. I have never heard of an Alpine Games rom for download.
I already have a Flascard (from Karri). This is really nice, I can put many versions of my games on it, keeping a trace, put some other beta games to test it. Really usefull.
Apart Lynxman, I was one of the first to be aware of his project of releasing a flashcart for Lynx. Because when I released Yastuna 2, I said it would be really cool that such a card exist on Lynx, giving people ability to ply my games on Lynx, even if they don't have technical experience.
Yes, I'm not in Lynx development for money, so I do not count into statistics when people speaks about piracy. You know, people can donwload my games, play them for free on emulator, build a cartridge and play them on their Lynx, or even sell some cartridges. And you know what ? We were speaking with Templeton (the grapist of Yastuna 2) about the number of different releases made for Yastuna 2. This really amazed us. There was this guy from Poland, Nimtene made 10 of them, Lynxman 50 mostly for the german market, Video 61 also, and other we didn't hear about for their own use. A new release is coming soon in France too. This is probably far more than what we would have sale with a normal release. This is the try before you buy thing probbaly. Or the low price (hey, some are less than 20 euros, shipment included).

Yes, being a developer, I'm really happy with this incoming release, because, everyone will be able to play my existing and incoming games on their real hardware, even if they do not have technical knoledge, and even if the producer's batch are out of stock and no one produced them anymore.

Edited by Fadest, Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:26 AM.


#64 Nimtene OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:37 AM

I'm sure all homebrew developers, AKA game developers such as Songbird et al,
will be rejoicing at the news their intellectual property will be downloaded illegally
without them earning a penny from it...


As an active Lynx homebrew developer myself, please don't presume to
know what we will or will not rejoice over. In my opinion, this fine effort
by Lynxman poses the lynx community no real harm. Any developer that
is concerned about such flash carts or emulators can easily make their
programs resistant to operating on such devices. If they're concerned.

#65 jaguar_fan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:24 AM

It is great to see that none of the Lynx developpers posting here is concerned about the existance of flash carts. I think they gave the right answers to those over here who would like to open another of these "leading-to-nowhere" pirating discussions. Im really glad to see this.

#66 Emehr OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:22 AM

dreamcastrip

Dreamcast Rip?

As in, stealing Dreamcast games?

Interesting.

#67 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:52 AM

dreamcastrip

Dreamcast Rip?

As in, stealing Dreamcast games?

Interesting.


No! Its supposed to mean "Dreamcast RIP", not "Dreamcast rip"!

OK, to summarise my rant from several hours ago it has been a genuine delight to read of all the current developers who will be more than happy to see their output openly available to download and play on the proposed Lynx flashcart.

I guess having got in from a Friday night out on the beer last night perhaps led to the tone of some of my posts being a little over zealous and I apologise sincerely for that. This is especially in light of the apparent fact that developers could release games which would be unplayable on a flashcart if they so decided.

I guess I'm still a little unconfortable with the idea of any issues of legality but if the flashcart does in actual fact lead to reinvigorating the Lynx scene in any way then perhaps its a price worth paying.

Regarding the various insults to the Jag scene that were posted by others . Well, perhaps my views on piracy are influenced somewhat by elements of the Jag scene as I know for certain that some coders would be less than happy is such a device ever becomes available on the Jag.

The thought of buying a Lynx flashcart to play legally distributed homebrew is something that may interest me as I've never been keen on the idea of playing stuff on emulators due to it not "feeling" the same as the real thing.

If I achieved one thing with the rant I guess it was getting a clear picture of how keen some coders/developers are to release their works to be played via the flashcart. Reading the details of some of these posts proved to be very encouraging for all members of the Lynx community.

Finally, just for the record, I am indeed a passionate Lynx owner who owns two Lynx IIs and nearly 50 boxed games including Alpine Games, Remnant, Lemmings, Lynx Reloadad and the Alien vs Predator demo cart.

#68 mimo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:04 AM

Well multi carts, repro games etc etc dont look to be harming the 2600 community, rare originals and genuine protos still command big bucks, but us poor gamers still have a chance to play them.
It is still harder to pirate a 2600, 5200, 8bit, Lynx etc game than the hopelessly protected DC

Edited by mimo, Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:06 AM.


#69 Lynxman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:26 PM

I think no Lynx User will buy this Card to play Roms downloaded from Internet.

My FlashCart support all known Roms, but i think maybe the Users will test some of this Roms to know which Cart is next to search for there collection.

I think that the Lynx Users today are almost collectors. And they buy the homebrews and do not only copy.

If anyone who coding a Game is afraid that some Users of the FlashCard copy his game, i can give informations to him how you can easy detect my FlashCart.

OK guys, nice discussion about this side of the FlashCart. Now some news: The last two weeks i was overloaded on the job. So i did not so much for the encrypt tool i need for my bootloader. But i finished some little issues.

#70 Emehr OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:30 PM

Looking forward to the flash card, Lynxman! The prospect of it is actually *inspiring* me to code for the Lynx. Sure, I've wanted to do it for a long time now, but with this and Karri's U3 tools, the possibility of seeing my code run on the real thing just got that much easier.

#71 matashen OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:55 PM

Hello,

i mean the people who want only copy a game to play are "modern hardware players" so the people who will play on retro hardware want play there "original".

I think by developing games the card will be usefull tool.

now i write for real tests an eprom and put them on my epromcard. I try the next i must erase the eprom and burn them new. So the flashcard makes it easyer to me to test some code on the lynx directly.

I also test some games to decide what card will be the next i buy. In the 90 i go for this to a warehouse and play it on there demohardware. In this century there is no warehouse where i can go to test lynxgames.... So if i want test it i have to burn them.

All things i have, films music, games i had it originally, i dont collect things only to have them in the sideboard, i will have them original to give an respect to the autors and makers.(Im the perfekt user for the music and filmindustries :P )

Greatings Mat

#72 Greenious ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:58 PM

:cool:


Looks excellent! I'll buy one.

-> Dreamcastrip, please crawl back under the stone you came from. "let the innocent one cast the first stone..." or how does the saying go now...

#73 dreamcastrip OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:58 PM

:cool:


Looks excellent! I'll buy one.

-> Dreamcastrip, please crawl back under the stone you came from. "let the innocent one cast the first stone..." or how does the saying go now...


If you actually took the trouble to READ my most recent post then you would perhaps understand the irrational nature of your above quoted response.

If anonymous name calling of this nature helps you reassert some form of self-worth then that's your call...

#74 Greenious ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:30 AM

If you actually took the trouble to READ my most recent post then you would perhaps understand the irrational nature of your above quoted response.


Sorry, did not read the last post you made, partly because my view mode switched to outline, which made reading a pain and I skipped those I felt was just...

partly because you mentioned the jaguar scene in a previous post, and held that as an excellent example why a flashcart would kill a very much alive and vibrant scene... And it has what? 3 developers actually do something? 1 of which refuses to make his stuff available to a broader market because he likes selling odd copies at ebay for a premium, and others that regularly threatens to quit making stuff...

No, I consider jaguar stone dead, and being held hostage by some idiots that want to remain the big fish in a pond that just gets smaller and smaller day by day. At one point several years back I was actually interested in starting developing on jaguar, but gave up.

I have a lynx, and if a flashcart shows up, I am pretty certain that it will give the scene a boost.

Also, being a handheld with limited capabilities, it means that it is fairly easy to get going with developing software for it, it is actually possible for a single guy to make something in a reasonable amount of time, and with a simple distribution method, I think we will see a lot more productions for it.

All in all, a flashcart will benefit the community more than it will hurt it.

Edited by Greenious, Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:42 AM.


#75 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:16 PM

Looking forward to this too... This will definitely help bring the Lynx in line with many other systems.




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