Actionuats price tag ?

[Mirage]

Yeah, I don't consider $4k month as a "ton of money for my time". Sorry. I just don't. Do you consider such a ton of money for yours?

 

A lot of people don't make as much money as you apparently do. I think that's the part you're missing here. I don't own any super rare and expensive games (or anything) for the same reason as I can't pay you more for your cart. If you can't understand that, then I'm sorry, Rob, I really am. I'm just not good enough, rich enough, to be able to play your games I guess.

[accousticguitar]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Adventure II. That was the most anticipated release ever of a homebrew game for an old Atari console. It sold for $40 plus shipping. Personally, I would pay $50 for Actionauts, but no more than that. It's a matter of economics. I have never paid more than $50 for a game, and I don't intend to start now. Unfortunately, I'm broke right now, so I won't be buying it for any price even if I did have paypal.

Curious, why pay a penny for a game when they are all available to play free in emulation?

Emulation is useful to try before you buy, but it does not replace the original hardware. I would much rather play games on my 27 inch tv using a CX40 joystick than to play them on my computer with a small screen and a poor joystick. I could get a Stelladapter, but I would still have the small computer screen. There is nothing like the real thing.

[rob fulop]

In closing I'd also like to say as far as PayPal, I will have to get a friend to use his PayPal account. I'd REALLY feel more safe and secure buying it through AtariAge...you see years ago I had a room mate whose PayPal account got hacked and his ENTIRE BANK ACCOUNT WAS WIPED! So, yeah, it's your decision, but again my thoughts.

 

Please don't take this personally or get offended. I'm sick right now as well, so I might sound more like a jerk than usual.

I think PayPal is a lot different then it was. You can use a credit card and just make a one-off purchase without linking anything to your bank account like you used to .. in this way it's just a credit card processor no different than any other secure payment form. Millions of people use it daily.

 

Regarding offense, absolutely none taken. I won't be selling the game for $50 regardless, like I said in October, the price will be higher than that of a typical Homebrew because I think it's worth more .. no other reason. If the market disagrees, then I'll certainly be the first to know ! If people think that my wishing to earn $4K a month here is 'gouging' .. then so be it. I did this poll to find this stuff out, that's all.

[midnight magicman]

I am on the Actionauts mailing list to receive a copy but I've gotta be honest here.

 

If it's $100 I'm not going to buy one. It's not worth that much to me as much as I love RF's games. The only reason I buy games is to play them. In fact, I was hoping for a loose cart release but because it seemed that there was not going to be one, I made sure I got myself on the list.

 

If you do decide to price the boxed copies @ $100, will there be loose carts made in the future (perhaps through AA)? because, as I said, I won't pay $100 for a videogame.

 

Peace

[rob fulop]

Yeah, I don't consider $4k month as a "ton of money for my time". Sorry. I just don't. Do you consider such a ton of money for yours?

 

A lot of people don't make as much money as you apparently do. I think that's the part you're missing here. I don't own any super rare and expensive games (or anything) for the same reason as I can't pay you more for your cart. If you can't understand that, then I'm sorry, Rob, I really am. I'm just not good enough, rich enough, to be able to play your games I guess.

well, you are probably rich enough.

 

I'm kidding, kidding, kidding.

 

Don't need to be the wounder sparrow here, okay?

 

I can understand this is a luxury hobby to you ... and most carts can be purchased for less than the price of a latte. Thus spending over $40 occurs to you as simply not worth it. I get it, I really do. I'm just doing a survey here, that's all.

[Mirage]

If people think that my wishing to earn $4K a month here is 'gouging' .. then so be it. I did this poll to find this stuff out, that's all.

 

Did anyone use the word gouging? I don't think it's gouging at all. The market decides all prices. At $75, you will sell fewer than you'll sell at $50. That's fine. It's up to you, and the market will pay what the market will pay. No one should take any offense either way. But implying that people can't seriously appreciate your work because they may not be able to afford your asking price... well, that's a little different. I think I've made my point several times now, so I'll stop. Needless to say, I'm not going to be getting an Actionauts.

 

EDIT: Okay, just saw your previous post. That's fine, and best of luck to you, Rob, really... and thanks again for all the memories

Edited April 1, 2008 by Mirage1972

[rob fulop]

I am on the Actionauts mailing list to receive a copy but I've gotta be honest here.

 

If it's $100 I'm not going to buy one. It's not worth that much to me as much as I love RF's games. The only reason I buy games is to play them. In fact, I was hoping for a loose cart release but because it seemed that there was not going to be one, I made sure I got myself on the list.

 

If you do decide to price the boxed copies @ $100, will there be loose carts made in the future (perhaps through AA)? because, as I said, I won't pay $100 for a videogame.

 

Peace

There won't be any loose versions put out by me. But you can probably play the game in emulation for free.

[+Psionic]

Regarding offense, absolutely none taken. I won't be selling the game for $50 regardless, like I said in October, the price will be higher than that of a typical Homebrew because I think it's worth more .. no other reason. If the market disagrees, then I'll certainly be the first to know ! If people think that my wishing to earn $4K a month here is 'gouging' .. then so be it. I did this poll to find this stuff out, that's all.

People can say all they want, but it ultimately all comes down to you, and the only way to really find out what people are willing to pay is to put the game up for sale. Unless the price is insane, they'll all sell eventually, it's just a question of how long it will take.

Edited April 1, 2008 by PingvinBlueJeans

[Sayton]

Now whenever that check from the Govt is supposed to come in...you know, so we can "stimulate the economy" oh heck yeah I can do it. May isn't it?

 

Right now though my wife is getting screwed BIG TIME as far as getting a baby sitting job so more than $50 is something I'll have to discuss with her. She'll probably say yes unless money is tight. We'll see. But since it's PayPal, no problem with my friend using his account to pay for it, right? (Yeah, I'll pay him back).

 

Oh, and as for emulation...again this is AtariAge...I know some people prefer emulation, but there's just something about popping in a cart into your VCS/7800 and playing it on the TV 31 years later. I've emulated a few times to test games to see how they were...just not the same for me. Yeah, it's free, but personally I'd much rather have a cart. Again, I'm a gamer and collector so that's me.

[ATARIPITBULL]

I appreciate the work that goes into programming new games for the 2600, probably more than most. I've worked with quite a few homebrewers now. I also know that they make games because they enjoy it. Not because there's any chance they'll ever get compensated for their efforts. They probably make pennies on the hour for all their hard work, if they make anything at all.

 

It'd be great if they could earn a real salary for their efforts, but they don't.

 

How much you think your time is worth is a question only you can answer. How much I think your game is worth is $35. That's what boxed reproductions sell for in the store here at AtariAge. That seems reasonable, because it's in line with what a new game cost back-in-the-day.

 

Since it's a limited run, maybe $50. But I don't buy a game based on speculative future resale prices. I buy a game because I want to play it.

 

I agree

 

Rob it is no doubt that you are considered a living ledgend here among Atari lovers and I can only imagine how much time and money you must have spent on making this game but to want to pass that whole cost onto the buyers is a little hard to take. the reason most people are saying $50 is because when other game makers take the time to come out with a new release complete with box and instructions that is the usual price. Take when Bob Polaro released "Bugs Bunny" I was at the Philly Classic game show when he was there and he even would autograph each copy for only $50. I will admite that I would be willing to pay around $80.00 or so for a copy but to ask over a hundered would be a little too much, at prices like that we would start to turn off the average Atari collector who could not afford the new high prices and we need all the Atari lovers we can get.

 

[+Nathan Strum]

why not just play it in emulation ?

I likely will. I'm not inclined to buy a game that I haven't been able to play in emulation first. I've bought some like that, and generally it hasn't worked out very well. The price I listed was what I consider to be a reasonable price, but not an indication that I'll actually buy one.

 

I have one signed cubicolor left? You want it for $200? Just curious.

Not in the least. I've played it in emulation. It's a decent puzzle game, but I could buy eight better homebrews for that price. I might pay $25 for a copy, but I don't think it's a game I'd play all that often. Signed or unsigned makes no difference to me.

 

I'm not a collector, so I base my purchasing decisions on: 1) Is it likely to be a good game and 2) Do I think it's worth my hard-earned pennies to pay for a cartridge? In the case of Auctionauts, the answers are: 1) I have no idea since the binary won't be released until after the carts have been sold and 2) I have no idea since the price hasn't been set and the binary won't be released until after the carts have been sold.

 

I buy carts for games that I like to play, because there's nothing like playing the game on real hardware, on a real TV. Emulation is a convenient substitute and great for trying games out. But games are just a lot more fun on the real deal.

 

But Actionauts is NOT a homebrew, it's NOT a hacked game .. it's a unique thing in this market .. and thus it will be priced accordingly.

Unique like Saboteur or 3D Rubik's Cube then? Or one of the unreleased UA Prototypes?

Edited April 1, 2008 by Nathan Strum

[sandmountainslim]

Rob it is no doubt that you are considered a living legend here among Atari lovers

 

 

Amen to that! I have probably gotten One THOUSAND Dollars worth of enjoyment out of Missile Command over the years....if you count not puttin quarters into a machine.

WP

[Albert]

Regarding offense, absolutely none taken. I won't be selling the game for $50 regardless, like I said in October, the price will be higher than that of a typical Homebrew because I think it's worth more .. no other reason. If the market disagrees, then I'll certainly be the first to know ! If people think that my wishing to earn $4K a month here is 'gouging' .. then so be it. I did this poll to find this stuff out, that's all.

Just to be fair here, as I've seen you repeat this several times in this thread now, a typical homebrew sells for $20-$25, not $50. These are for original games, not hacks or reproductions of prototypes. The games that typically sell for $40-$50 that you are making comparisons to are generally reproductions of unreleased prototypes:

 

- Bugs Bunny

- Elevator Action

- Saboteur

- 3D Rubik's Cube

- Crack'ed

- Revenge of the Apes

- Snow White

- Combat Two

 

...and so forth.

 

..Al

[Sayton]

I won't be selling the game for $50 regardless, like I said in October, the price will be higher than that of a typical Homebrew because I think it's worth more .. no other reason.

 

I understand what you're saying but here's why I think people are saying $50. In the above you said the price will be higher than that of a typical homebrew. $50 IS higher than a typical homebrew. The most expensive ones here on AA are The Last Ninja and N.E.R.D.S. priced at $42...and from what I'm seen/read, they aren't worth 42 CENTS!

 

Most homebrews on here are $20-$25...some higher some less. So, again, $50 IS higher than a typical homebrew. Whatever you price is obviously up to you, but remember to weigh other options besides making your money back.

 

Some people from what it seems are already NOT going to buy the game now (arguing and all)...so there's some games NOT sold. And if you go higher than $50...say $75, well that's even MORE people who probably won't buy games and thus probably MORE carts just sitting around. How long will it take to sell them? Weeks? Months? A year or more?

 

I'm not really WANTING to pay $50 for a 2600 (if I wanted to spend that much on a game I'd go to a gamestore and buy a new game...okay so they're more than $50) but considering what Actionauts IS and how it's FINALLY being released, as a buyer I think $50 is fair. Try to look at the consumer points of view as well...again, it seems some consumers are already "leaving shop".

[tiggerthehun]

*a quick digression*... (although it DOES involve one of Rob's other games...)

My gal-friend missed church yesterday, and was feeling a bit bad about it - but she told me she had the perfect excuse... She was engaged in "spiritual warfare"... I found out today that meant she was playing "demon attack"...

I LOVE her sense of humor!

[Sayton]

I agree, Al.

 

Peronsally, again, I think $50 should be THE HIGHEST you go. If you went BETWEEN $25 and $50, you'd sell them like hotcakes.

 

Btw, tigger, I SERIOUSLY thought you were going to say she was playing Spiritual Warfare on the NES.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Sayton

[rob fulop]

why not just play it in emulation ?

I likely will. I'm not inclined to buy a game that I haven't been able to play in emulation first. I've bought some like that, and generally it hasn't worked out very well. The price I listed was what I consider to be a reasonable price, but not an indication that I'll actually buy one.

 

I have one signed cubicolor left? You want it for $200? Just curious.

Not in the least. I've played it in emulation. It's a decent puzzle game, but I could buy eight better homebrews for that price. I might pay $25 for a copy, but I don't think it's a game I'd play all that often. Signed or unsigned makes no difference to me.

 

I'm not a collector, so I base my purchasing decisions on: 1) Is it likely to be a good game and 2) Do I think it's worth my hard-earned pennies to pay for a cartridge? In the case of Auctionauts, the answers are: 1) I have no idea since the binary won't be released until after the carts have been sold and 2) I have no idea since the price hasn't been set and the binary won't be released until after the carts have been sold.

 

I buy carts for games that I like to play, because there's nothing like playing the game on real hardware, on a real TV. Emulation is a convenient substitute and great for trying games out. But games are just a lot more fun on the real deal.

 

But Actionauts is NOT a homebrew, it's NOT a hacked game .. it's a unique thing in this market .. and thus it will be priced accordingly.

Unique like Saboteur or 3D Rubik's Cube then? Or one of the unreleased UA Prototypes?

 

Well, I've made little secret about Actionauts. It was not a game worth of release at the time (1984). So it's not like the game can be compared to a commercial release of any game. I'm not expecting rave reviews of the game itself. It's certainly "okay" .. it works .. it's innovative, certainly at the time, and it's solid. But it's not Demon Attack. I just the other day was reading a review of some unreleased Beatles stuff that was found on some of their Abby Road sessions. Some people are saying "it's not up there with the bands typical music". Well, uh .. I mean there IS a reason the material was unreleased in the first place, right? So you can't take an unreleased work by any creative author, and expect it to compare with the same author's commercial successes. Obviously an author has good reason to NOT release their work. Thus when such is released, much later, it is released for historical significance, for collectors and conneisseurs (sp?).

Edited April 1, 2008 by rob fulop

[sandmountainslim]

she had the perfect excuse... She was engaged in "spiritual warfare"... I found out today that meant she was playing "demon attack"...

 

At least she wasn't meaning that NES game where the kid goes around and blows up all the sinners with the "Sword of Righteousness" and whatnot!

WP

[+evg2000]

Not sure what I would pay at this point, but something no one has pointed out: If Rob made $7,000 per month (which is the high amount in the poll) as a contract programmer working on Actionuats, after taxes, SS (both his and his employers share), etc. he's now down to less than 4K per month. So if he's not paying the government their share, 4K would be equal to his take home pay (if he did pay the government), so 5 month + $5k = $25000 (or less) / 300 = $83 or less per copy.

[tiggerthehun]

Just got back from walking my mini-schnauzer... I wanted to comment directly on the topic at hand, but I needed a brisk walk to crystalize my thoughts. I think $50 is about as high as I would go on this. If we look at new releases for the 360 and the PS3, at $60... well, that's more than I'd care to pay - and there's a whole list of folks who need to get paid off of that $60... What percentage of that $ are the programmers receiving?

 

Secondly, I'd say that one should figure a programmers worth not by a monthly salary, but hourly... Is there work being done every day? An hour or two here and there?

 

Finally, although these carts are a wonderful and amazing thing, well, it's just not a money making proposition. I have a friend who does BEAUTIFUL handmade vases, but he has a tough time selling them in this world of quick, fast, disposable, I can buy a vase like that at Wal-Mart for $5 place... I myself (not to brag) play a pretty mean piano, and have gotten as much as $200 an hour, but I realize that most days I'm going to get a whole lot less than that. But, honestly, I'm grateful and honored for any of that. It's not like I'm mining coal 2 miles underneath the earth at risk of life and limb. I'm blessed and lucky to do what I love.

 

Here's what I think should be done. I'd chat with Albert to see how he makes carts and boxes at a somewhat cheaper price and use that info/teamup with Albert to sell these carts at $35 a piece. They'd fly out the door, and it would get them into the hands of people who want to play them, not put them on a shelf to sell in five years.

I'd rather sit and play an hour for a fella at the local pub who just paid me $10 to play his favorite songs then $200 for a bunch of suits who could give a crap about what I'm pouring my heart and soul into.

 

 

All this aside, I can't believe I'm (sort-of) chatting with the fellow who helped create many of my favorite childhood memories - ah the nights of naming each wave of the demons, in demon attack, or seeing just how many different colors I could make the world in missile command... I thank you for that!

[A.J. Franzman]

2) I do know what the COST is for Actionauts to exist. The game took about 3.5 months of my time to make in the first place. Then it took about 1.5 month of time to make it available

Rob,

 

Please don't take this as an insult; I don't mean any disrespect and admire your talents and have enjoyed playing your previously released works.

 

But just to be fair here, were those ~ 5 months figured at actual days and hours of work as one might be employed for a "real" job? How much of the program were you already paid to create while actually employed as a programmer, and how much was done more recently on your own? Was the recent work in lieu of other employment, or something done in "spare time"? Did you finish the program expecting sales of it to equate to gainful employment, or was it done more as a hobby?

[+Psionic]

Here's what I think should be done. I'd chat with Albert to see how he makes carts and boxes at a somewhat cheaper price and use that info/teamup with Albert to sell these carts at $35 a piece. They'd fly out the door, and it would get them into the hands of people who want to play them, not put them on a shelf to sell in five years.

I don't know where you've been, but the carts, boxes and manuals are already made...and from what I understand, Rob got the best rate that was reasonable, so there's no further negotiations with Albert to be had in that area, and it doesn't really matter either way.

 

I do think some people are being a bit silly here. Sorry, but I don't think selling these for $35 is an option for a variety of reasons. Rob made clear that this was going to cost more than a normal release right from the beginning, so I really don't understand where all the complaints are coming from. Rob also made clear that this is unreleased, unfinished game with somewhat limited play value - in other words, it's a collector's release - so to that end, I'm not inclined to take a lot of the people seriously who are whining that they just want to play the game. The ROM will be released for those who just want to play the game...and this probably isn't a game that people are going to play very much anyway. And no offense, but we've heard this all before from certain people here who say they'll "never sell" their copy of something and then flip it on eBay a year or two later. For $35, Rob may as well just give the damn thing away...at that price, he'd be encouraging flipping.

 

On the other hand...

 

As silly as a $35 price tag is, the $100 price that Rob seems to want is kind of crazy, but more than that, it's just plain unrealistic...especially for an unfinished game that "lacks the polish of a finished release" (in Rob's own words). No matter what Rob thinks he's owed for his efforts, that has to be reconciled with the realities of what people think the game is worth and what they're actually willing to pay. I think the logical step here is to determine a comfortable medium between what most people are claiming they'd spend ($50) and what Rob seems to want to charge ($100) and shoot for a price in the $75 range...which is about what I had planned on spending for this game when I signed up for the reserve list (for whatever that's worth). In the end, Rob has to make the decision.

[+cvga]

This is an interesting discussion. On one hand, I think this ought to be worth significantly more than a regular homebrew. On the other hand, you've mentioned in several posts that you don't seem to mind if people choose to play the game for free through emulation. I don't understand that logic since those players would be using the exact same code that you labored over for the commercial release. How can you want to be sure that you're compensated fairly for your effort from people who purchase a physical cartridge but don't care that you won't receive any payment from anyone else?

 

For the record, I'm very likely to buy one at whatever cost you set. I'm only asking the above question because I think there are many ways to determine the 'value' of a given release and you've indicated that you're not easily offended.

Edited April 1, 2008 by cvga

[2600 Forever]

On the other hand, you've mentioned in several posts that you don't seem to mind if people choose to play the game for free through emulation. I don't understand that logic since those players would be using the exact same code that you labored over for the commercial release. How can you want to be sure that you're compensated fairly for your effort from people who purchase a physical cartridge but don't care that you won't receive any payment from anyone else?

 

Nevermind the fact that jokers like Hozer are gonna pump out repros, the day the binary hits the net.

[Sayton]

I see where you're coming from Pingvin, but didn't Rob later on say that he and someone else actually worked on the game and completed it (or was it an email?).

 

Something about levels were added, bugs were tweaked...he decided to actually make the game and not release it "as is". I could be wrong.

 

All in all, I think the problem here is, WE (the buyers) are too busy arguing amongst ourselves, and some against Rob, when we all need to realize:

 

1) Let our opinions be voiced, but DO NOT take it to another level (some people have it seems like, already backing out of purchasing the game)

 

2) I DO NOT want to pay more than $50 (I've expressed why already) BUT the price IS NOT my choice. Depending if it goes higher than $50 and the funds at the time, I'll have to see if I'm able to purchase it then (family is more important, we can all agree).

 

3) Whether you THINK Rob should make money off this or not, personally we should ALL be happy that this game is even getting released. A piece of history from a great programmer...maybe we should all calm down and just be happy that it's even coming out.