flashjazzcat Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Xerox Alto Source Code Released To Public I enjoyed reading the comments, where arguments about why Windows needs GHz of CPU and GB of RAM have already begun. yet another name suggestion: AltAri OS Nice... or just AltAri. Very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I was thinking about this project in conjunction with the announced rapidus accelerator. With the program's speed already so amazing, the rapidus almost seems like cheating Should be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 With the program's speed already so amazing, the rapidus almost seems like cheating. Well, exactly: it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I was thinking about this project in conjunction with the announced rapidus accelerator. With the program's speed already so amazing, the rapidus almost seems like cheating Should be fun! The way the demo looks so far you are right, however you may change your mind once you start loading a few concurrent tasks, some of which may be dependent to CPU power. After all it is still a 6502 . Had I used the GUI for a semi-serious task, I would definitely consider getting the Rapidus upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 If I wanted a 65816 w/ a GUI I'd simply buy an Apple IIgs and run GS/OS. Then I'd have a 16-bit OS, color GUI, higher resolution and a large base of applications including HyperCard for a machine that was designed around the 65816. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_GS/OS Basically, it's MacOS for the 65816 and even makes it fairly easy to port Mac apps because the "Toolbox" is quite similar. The magic of FJC's creation is that it runs on a stock 6502 on a stock 130XE or upgraded XL and that is why it is so fascinating and cool. What makes it twice as cool is that it's all written in assembler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 But then you'd be using an Apple (blech) and not an Atari. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 But then you'd be using an Apple (blech) and not an Atari. Right on man! It is amazing what FJC is doing with a stock 8-bit though no doubt!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) But then you'd be using an Apple (blech) and not an Atari. I don't consider an Atari 8-bit with a 65816, several MB of RAM, a custom OS and a VBXE to be a real Atari either. I'll agree the Apple II/+/c/e sucked but the IIgs was actually pretty damn cool and the Mac certainly didn't suck though I preferred the ST until the Mac IIci was fairly common and it was clear the TT & Falcon weren't going anywhere in the US. Edited October 25, 2014 by kogden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I don't consider an Atari 8-bit with a 65816, several MB of RAM, a custom OS and a VBXE to be a real Atari either. I'll agree the Apple II/+/c/e sucked but the IIgs was actually pretty damn cool and the Mac certainly didn't suck though I preferred the ST until the Mac IIci was fairly common and it was clear the TT & Falcon weren't going anywhere in the US. 816, Rapidus, VBXE, U1M, Incognito, etc. are simply UPGRADES to the Atari computer. What you said is just like saying "My Atari 400 is the original Atari, and a 1450XLD isn't real because it has more features." I used to drive a Mercedes 240D (automatic), which has got to be one of the slowest cars on earth (but they get almost 40 MPG). Now I drive a 300D turbo, which is a difference like night and day as far as power is concerned. They both are W123 models, with the same body and interior design. (In computer speak, they are compatible). Do you think ANY 240D owner would complain if someone replaced their engine with the 300's turbo? ABSOLUTELY NOT, they would consider it an UPGRADE. Isn't that what life is all about? Making things better for yourself and others? The magic of the Atari is in its architecture. the custom chips, ANTIC, GTIA, and PoKey. That's what makes them special. Upgrades are just that. UPGRADES. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FifthPlayer Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 816, Rapidus, VBXE, U1M, Incognito, etc. are simply UPGRADES to the Atari computer. What you said is just like saying "My Atari 400 is the original Atari, and a 1450XLD isn't real because it has more features." They're some pretty serious upgrades. After adding Rapidus, VBXE, U1M you have a machine that can basically go toe-to-toe with an ST or an Amiga. What's the point, really? Why not just get an ST or an Amiga then? All of these machines are obsolete now. We love them and collect them not for performance and features, but for what they are, including their limitations. When you upgrade the Atari to the point where it has effectively been transformed to a different machine, the things that made it special and worthy of attention in this day and age go out the window along with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschak909 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 They're some pretty serious upgrades. After adding Rapidus, VBXE, U1M you have a machine that can basically go toe-to-toe with an ST or an Amiga. What's the point, really? Why not just get an ST or an Amiga then? All of these machines are obsolete now. We love them and collect them not for performance and features, but for what they are, including their limitations. When you upgrade the Atari to the point where it has effectively been transformed to a different machine, the things that made it special and worthy of attention in this day and age go out the window along with it. Complete and utter fundamentalist bullshit. -Thom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FifthPlayer Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Complete and utter fundamentalist bullshit. Perhaps so! But just consider that flashjazzcat's GUI OS, would be far less impressive and less compelling if he had targeted a fully upgraded (Rapidus/VBXE/etc) Atari as the minimum spec. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 They're some pretty serious upgrades. After adding Rapidus, VBXE, U1M you have a machine that can basically go toe-to-toe with an ST or an Amiga. What's the point, really? Why not just get an ST or an Amiga then? All of these machines are obsolete now. We love them and collect them not for performance and features, but for what they are, including their limitations. When you upgrade the Atari to the point where it has effectively been transformed to a different machine, the things that made it special and worthy of attention in this day and age go out the window along with it. Sorry I don't think like that. With my ST, I have Adspeed, Marpet RAM upgrade Ultrasatan and Netusbee and it is still a beloved ST to me Software added is NVDI and various patches and OS changes. Still an ST though. Same with the 8-bit. I have U1MB and SIDE2 and look forward to adding a Rapidus. Still it will be an Atari to me, just upgraded. One day adding the GUI too. Good times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Perhaps so! But just consider that flashjazzcat's GUI OS, would be far less impressive and less compelling if he had targeted a fully upgraded (Rapidus/VBXE/etc) Atari as the minimum spec. FJC's accomplishment is not diminished to me in any way due to its scalability with upgrades. It is a testament to his programming that it is targeted to the base spec but still benefits from upgrades. Cool stuff! Edited October 25, 2014 by TheNameOfTheGame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FifthPlayer Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) FJC's accomplishment is not diminished to me in any way due to its scalability with upgrades. It is a testament to his programming that it is targeted to the base spec but still benefits from upgrades. Cool stuff! I wasn't referring to its scalability, which is a really good point. What I am saying is that if flashjazzcat had required you to have a Rapidus, VBXE and U1M to run it, it wouldn't be very special, because then it's something that has been done before on similar spec-ed hardware back in the 80s. What makes the A8 GUI special is that it can run on hardware that supposedly "can't" run it. I get more excited about seeing what more the original hardware can do than trying to upgrade the hardware to do more. The vast majority of A8 software will never benefit from hardware upgrades, and other machines with 16-bit specs from the start (ST/Amiga/GS) have way more software that does take advantage of them. Edited October 25, 2014 by FifthPlayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I wasn't referring to its scalability, which is a really good point. What I am saying is that if flashjazzcat had required you to have a Rapidus, VBXE and U1M to run it, it wouldn't be very special, because then it's something that has been done before on similar spec-ed hardware back in the 80s. What makes the A8 GUI special is that it can run on hardware that "supposedly can't" run it. I get more excited about seeing what the original hardware can do than trying to upgrade the hardware. The vast majority of A8 software will never benefit from hardware upgrades, and other machines with 16-bit specs from the start (ST/Amiga/GS) have way more software that does take advantage of them. Can't argue with that. It is a special piece of software. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Personally, back in the day, I really liked software that allowed our 8 bitters to out perform the ST and the Amiga. That's what it's all about. The best possible performance on the Atari 8 bit platform. It is a joy to outspeed the ST, that's what I have been striving for for all these years We are looking to the future, to make a model that others may write programs for that uses all the available resources, including 816 16 bit code, large RAM, fast hard drives, and the like. Atari 8 forever is how I look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 The magic of FJC's creation is that it runs on a stock 6502 on a stock 130XE or upgraded XL and that is why it is so fascinating and cool. What makes it twice as cool is that it's all written in assembler. My comment was if you wanted to use it the way ProWizard uses his Atari for example. Of course a 6502 will be enough and more authentic for someone who will load the GUI once in a while or use it for lightweight tasks. I am not saying this to marginalize FJC's work just to emphasize the limits of the 6502. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Perhaps so! But just consider that flashjazzcat's GUI OS, would be far less impressive and less compelling if he had targeted a fully upgraded (Rapidus/VBXE/etc) Atari as the minimum spec. I'd suggest you reserve your judgement until you see the OS running in a production environment, sure the demos look impressive but remember demos are just demos the real performance should be measured in a live environment. This is as true for an Atari 8 bit as it is true for a PC. The amount of work and the undertaking is indeed impressive but one shouldn't rush into making a decision without seeing the OS at work with real tasks. Edited October 25, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) What makes the A8 GUI special is that it can run on hardware that supposedly "can't" run it. There is a difference between CAN'T run it and can't run it efficiently. Who says Atari 8 bit can't run a multitasking GUI?, obviously it can if someone like FJC puts his mind into it, but the real question is can it run several tasks at the same time without the CPU severely overloaded and how compatible it will be with the old software. Those will have to be seen before a judgement is passed (at least by myself) I strongly believe a Rapidus upgrade will make the GUI much more enjoyable once the admiration period is over. Edited October 25, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 There is a difference between CAN'T run it and can't run it efficiently. Who says Atari 8 bit can't run a multitasking GUI?, obviously it can if someone like FJC puts his mind into it, but the real question is can it run several tasks at the same time without the CPU severely overloaded and how compatible it will be with the old software. Those will have to be seen before a judgement is passed (at least by myself) I strongly believe a Rapidus upgrade will make the GUI much more enjoyable once the admiration period is over. I am sure that it runs smooth in a production environment, too. The main challenge regarding performance is already done: Providing a fast, flexible, modern GUI. The second part, which had to be coped with, is now working as well: Preemptive multitasking with the 6502. So FJC already finished everything to prove, that his GUI multitasking OS will run fine on the A8 with good performance. I guess we don't need to worry at all, that at the end in a production environment, when multiple applications run parallel on the machine, the CPU would collapse. The reason is, that usually nothing happens if the user doesn't do anything. Even in a multitasking environment with a GUI, when several apps have been opened, most tasks will just sleep and wait for the user. You would only start multiple applications which show heavy animations at the same time for pure demonstration puposes (and even this works fine at least on the Z80, so why not on the 6502, too?). At the moment I don't know how much will be possible on the A8. But in practice that doesn't matter at all, as for the normal use case you don't need it. CU, Prodatron 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) I guess we don't need to worry at all, that at the end in a production environment, when multiple applications run parallel on the machine, the CPU would collapse. The reason is, that usually nothing happens if the user doesn't do anything. Obviously, but I am more concerned about what will happen when I am actually doing something, like copying a disk over SIO while I am typing away on my fav WP, will i have to wait for each key to register, will my cursor disappear or become unresponsive, will the OS be able to recover from an old style game or will I have to reboot after playing a game in between WP sessions, what if i decide to run a sieve while I do WP or try to sort my datafile, will I have to wait for ages for the code pages to move in and out of main should I decide to load, say 10 apps, and switch between them etc... For me to say a computer is able to run a preemptive multitasking OS it should be able to handle all these situations gracefully without me growing grey hair while waiting. I think the best answer to these questions will be to try it out in a live environment. It may very well put me to shame but that's something to be seen. Edited October 25, 2014 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 to be perfectly honest I have worked in I.T. a number of years ago... most of the machines including the famous 'Super' user rarely had more than 3 or four things going on at once... that was until trying to watch a movie/or song or streaming/filesharing p2p came along(most of which are against company policy anyway). I don't see one thing wrong with a GUI on the 8 bit, remember also that the drives can format a drive without waiting which is something I used to do while I continue typing away on something that would eventually be saved to said disk... I can see a lot of tricks being employed to make this a transparent joy for the 8-bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Really? Again with this? How many times must the question "will it be usable" be repeated (and how many times without recourse to the MultiQuote button)? If we must go off-topic with a debate about CPU accelerators, let's at least keep it concise. Software runs faster with a CPU accelerator, and this software is no exception. The objective, though, is to make it usable without recourse to an accelerated processor, enhanced graphics, etc. To that end, I'll point everyone to Prodatron's remarks on the matter, since - as the author of the system upon whose kernel architecture, API, IPC, and windowing system the A8 GUI/OS is based - he is the single person present with the insight to speculate on performance in typical usage scenarios. The moot point appears to have shifted now to atypical usage scenarios, such as typing during serial IO and expecting immediate screen redraws, or running ten CPU-intensive applications which use the processor in tight loops without yielding. Doubtless the system will be left struggling in such circumstances, and the misgivings will prove well-founded. Mission accomplished! I can tell you now that setting up a "multitasking mega-demo" scenario and then complaining that your WP editor window isn't updating fast enough on a 1.79MHz CPU, and that as a consequence the GUI isn't practically usable will elicit a brisk two-word rebuttal from me. I'm reminded of the moon landing hoax conspiracy jockeys whose inability to believe in or comprehend the reach of human attainment or the capability of old computer technology makes them impervious to overwhelming physical evidence. And they can never be convinced of the truth, since they will retro-fit everything they are told or shown so that it adheres to their reality of what is possible and what is not. If NASA physically transported them to the moon and showed them the US flag planted in the soil, they would still find something to complain about. On the subject of accelerators in general: users are free to put them in their machines, and I'll ensure the 6502 code runs properly when accelerated. I'll be developing the GUI, however, on a 1.79MHz CPU (I have no idea whether I will end up taking possession of one of these accelerators), and if the system doesn't work acceptably well in typical usage scenarios at that speed, then I'll improve things until it does, or not release it at all and proclaim the whole thing a failure. But every test conducted since work began on the Kernel in May has been a pleasant surprise and provided ample reason to keep going. It's left to people to provide reasons to stop, I guess. Edited October 25, 2014 by flashjazzcat 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodatron Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Its always fun to make videos for atari8warez 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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