Manic Miner Port?

[+MrFish]

Sorry for doubting, makes much more sense that way

 

I'm not really much into system comparisons, but although the Spectrum is king of hi-res among the 8-bits, it's got one of the worst color palettes of the lot. It's much worse than the C64 and even worse than the fluorescent Amstrad CPC, and thus has produced some of the most obnoxious looking, gaudy game screens of any 8-bit system. Add to that the restrictions of color placement, and you get a lot of this stuff akin to an old woman who can't put her lipstick on straight anymore as well.

 

 

One of my own experiments when I was first learning about this stuff is scrolling map from Laser Squad.

It's kind of like color attributes from other 8bits as I wanted to allow any out of four colors for any tile.

Two layers of quad sized PMs give you two shades of one color per byte.

 

[YouTube Video]

 

What I would call 'second' method (like in Tezz's Manic Miner) is using PMs where ever needed, kinda like G2F allows.

So with each Player or Missile you can add color to a limited part of horizontal line where size and resolution of details depends on size setting of PM.

 

Haven't spoken to Tezz about that, but I bet he spent hours manually doing layout for PMs

What would be better is PC based 'smart' layout editor (like g2f) but maybe with dynamic position of stuff. Like sprite multiplexer for color distribution... Just thinking about complexity of it, makes me dread color clash and flickering

 

Yes, I recall that experiment of yours. It's pretty cool and unique, but something that has the hi-res portion designed in a way that matches better to the size of the player being used -- such as how Tezz has done with MM -- can look better.

 

I don't know about making a multiplexer, but at least having the ability to change color per zone, per line is useful.

Edited August 30, 2015 by MrFish

[popmilo]

...something that has the hi-res portion designed in a way that matches better to the size of the player being used -- such as how Tezz has done with MM -- can look better.

8 pixel players give us possibility to color 16 hires pixel wide sprites. 4 of those in a line is not so bad.

 

I've did something like that in a game mockup ('Kiro' in one of earlier topics):

 

Every second column is colored, 4 Players coloring four columns. It doesn't look bad at all. Some colors like blue have visible 'halo' around bright pixels, but even that is not bad looking. Probably indistinguishable on CRT.

 

Here is executable:

kiiro.xex

 

ps. Do you have any example game that you think Atari could do ? My pick is Rex on Spectrum, with all it's obnoxious colors

[José Pereira]

Popmilo remember that we already talked about this kind of stuff including Rex?

For Rex it is PF1_black and PF2_white, everything moving are white then the expanded PMGs do the gfxs colouring:

 

EDIT: That seems the same what Tezz is doing in Manic Miner...

Edited August 30, 2015 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

O.K. I found Rex:

[José Pereira]

Starquake adding colours could also work but different. From the code you could have (for the playing area, status panel are some PMGs underlays):

-> 2PLAYERS or 3 expanded underlays on some gfxs like the rays and teleports;

-> 1 or 2 overlays for our guy;

-> 4MISSILES quadruple wide 5th player mode same colour as PF1_dark colour but other a light luminance gives 4 enemys lighter than gfxs.

[+MrFish]

8 pixel players give us possibility to color 16 hires pixel wide sprites. 4 of those in a line is not so bad.

 

I've did something like that in a game mockup ('Kiro' in one of earlier topics):

kiro colors.png

 

Every second column is colored, 4 Players coloring four columns. It doesn't look bad at all. Some colors like blue have visible 'halo' around bright pixels, but even that is not bad looking. Probably indistinguishable on CRT.

 

Yeah, that looks good.

 

 

ps. Do you have any example game that you think Atari could do ? My pick is Rex on Spectrum, with all it's obnoxious colors

 

When it comes to action games and combining P/M's, not much. I think it's fine to limit P/M usage and do just about anything in hi-res and have a good result, as XXL has shown with his work. Tezz is going the extra mile and it does show that A8 can go a little further in this area if one wants to take the time for it.

 

I personally use hi-res mainly for text/scores in design, as I prefer the advantages of having more color and more flexible use of it for design on the main objects. In other cases the design may be suitable for hi-res to begin with -- as with the Monopoly cards that I was working on -- where it's mainly monochrome and minimal P/M's are needed.

 

Here are a couple of others I was working on more recently:

 

[Note: bottom menu/score panel would get swapped in and out with the upper menu/score panel at appropriate parts of gameplay]

 

 

 

I've contemplated using P/M's with this design, but I also think it looks fine as is:

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by MrFish

[oky2000]

Why would anybody leave this classic almost finished A8 game like this and spend a few years on converting some budget crap like Chimera? If it was Elite then fair enough but fraking Chimera?

 

I've lost interest now, even if it is released I wouldn't bother playing it now, it was released on every other 8 bit computer known to man (including Tatung Einstein and Memotech MTX!) except the VIC-20 and Atari 800XL Should have just released it as is 95% finished and got on with your conversion of Chimera mate. It doesn't take 4 years to add a fraking pause option to all but finished game.

[electrotrains]

A recent post by tezz in another thread suggested we can expect to see his MM port pretty soon.

 

You might have lost interest, but I'm sure there's a lot of us (including me) that can't wait to see what he's managed to do.

 

Robin

[Tezz]

Thanks so much for your uplifting post Oky I understand it's annoying to leave this moth-balled for so long but I was interested in some of the other projects I had been working on too. All the fun is actually working on the games TBH, releasing them is the end of all of that so I put this off like last weeks homework. I work on A8 games for fun in my free time and I don't ask for anything in return. I just make sure that I try to do a good job with them.

 

As I mentioned in another thread recently, when I finished working on Saboteur on new years day I returned to Manic Miner so I guess it's a good time to update here with some news.

 

As you know the version I created was written from scratch and designed in the way I thought would work best for the A8. I'd intended to ensure in the final stages that I hadn't missed anything and that it was completely faithful to the original so, now returning back to the project I completed converting Matthews' original z80 code line by line to 6502 last week and after the nessasary changes for the A8 and some rewriting and optimising I have the original game now running faster than the Spectrum. This was undertaken only to compare notes with my remake however, game features such as the Solar Power Generator wouldn't be possible with the game this way on the A8. To have MM 100% on the A8 with all the features and in colour it needs to be done the way that I started.

 

I have everything in hand now and I'm working on the game every free hour I have available. I've thoroughly enjoyed working on the game again and I'm glad to know MM inside out

 

Tezz.

[snicklin]

I completed converting Matthews' original z80 code line by line to 6502 last week and after the nessasary changes for the A8 and some rewriting and optimising I have the original game now running faster than the Spectrum. This was undertaken only to compare notes with my remake...

 

Just for curiosities sake then, is there any possiblity that this version could be released first? (on the proviso that it is declared that this isn't the full remake...?)

[The Usotsuki]

I wonder how hard that would be to port to the Arcade Board, which is more similar to the Speccy hardware. (actually, it's the MSX video and sound hardware in an Apple ][ daughtercard.)

[popmilo]

Why would anybody leave this classic almost finished A8 game like this and spend a few years on converting some budget crap like Chimera? If it was Elite then fair enough but fraking Chimera?

As I've worked on Chimera also here are my two cents about it. It's simply like Tezz says - as long as it's fun it makes you work on it. Once most difficult technical details are done and it's all about polish and finishing touches, unfortunately it tends to slow down.

 

I agree with you that Chimera is not such a good game compared to a legend like MM. From coders perspective though, converting sprite routine to work with hardware sprites with full iso-3d masking and priorities was loooots of pain and and even more fun at the end once it was done.

 

ps. Come on Tezz, it's time you finish MM already so we can work on something new !

[Tickled_Pink]

What I'd like to know is how Tez and others manage to convert games with such accuracy. From something like the C64 or other 6502-based systems I can perhaps understand, but from Z80 machines?

 

HOW?

 

Anyway, I loved playing MM on a friend's Spectrum years ago. Was never very good at it. This looks incredible.

[high voltage]

What I'd like to know is how Tez and others manage to convert games with such accuracy. From something like the C64 or other 6502-based systems I can perhaps understand, but from Z80 machines?

 

HOW?

 

 

Because the A8 is universally perfect to take on any lesser 8-bit computer

Edited February 1, 2016 by high voltage

[popmilo]

Because the A8 is universally perfect to take on any lesser 8-bit computer

Lesser - Yes.

C64 - No.

 

Runs off into distance covering his head...

[Wrathchild]

... but from Z80 machines? HOW?

 

Take a look at this thread.

 

Google translate will (very roughly) handle your Polish / Czech to English...

 

XXL / Maurius / Tezz translate handles your Z80 to 6502

[Jacques]

Tezz, I hope you'll keep that great music from preview versions in the final realease!

[Tezz]

Tezz, I hope you'll keep that great music from preview versions in the final realease!

Hi, yes I'll be keeping Mikers' music in the game

 

I've been making good progress this week rewriting clean code and incorporating procedures I wrote previously. Aiming for perfection I decided to create an individual screen arrangement and modified sprite procedures for the solar power generator level so that I can illiminate the few badlines in the other levels.

[+MrFish]

I've been making good progress this week rewriting clean code and incorporating procedures I wrote previously. Aiming for perfection I decided to create an individual screen arrangement and modified sprite procedures for the solar power generator level so that I can illiminate the few badlines in the other levels.

 

I think it's great that you're taking the time fine tune things like you are and not just rushing to get to the finish line. I'm sure it will show in the end product.

[snicklin]

I think that I've said this before, but if we've had to wait 30 years for a version on the Atari 8-bits, we can surely wait a little longer for Tezz's version.

 

It's one of those iconic games of the times. If you ask lay people to name a home computer game from the 80's, "Manic Miner" would be high on the list of received game names.

 

I used to get teased years ago about owning an Atari. The comments were either:

a) They got it confused with a 2600 and Spectrum owners (of all people!) would say the graphics were awful.

b) Spectrum/Commodore/Amstrad are better machines because they get all the big name games.

 

Well, if they'd held their horses for 20 to 30 years, they'd see that this isn't true with b!!

 

We got Operation Wolf (Blood) just a few years late, we got Lemmings (Brundles), Space Harrier and now Manic Miner.... and some others that I can't think of at the moment.

[_The Doctor__]

As I have said before and will say again Tezz kicks ass!

 

Thanks for all your help, insight, conversation, and work. Just one more reason to try and make it another day!

 

_The Doctor__

[+Philsan]

Terrence, Poison - Fandal - PG would love to see Manic Miner (screenshot from Prototype 2010 demo):

 

[Tezz]

Hi Phil, I'll be sending the game to Poison first to play through

[popmilo]

Have you seen this ?

 

Source code of Manic Miner for the C64 has been released!

http://commodore.ninja/source-code-of-manic-miner-rem-for-the-c64-has-been-released/?ciatheme=1

[Tezz]

Thanks Vladimir, I have Matthews original procedures completely rewritten now cleanly in 6502 along side my own version of the game so I'm working between them to complete the project that I started. None of the gameplay side of things is any problem. The game has to be very tightly written on the A8 in a specific way with the mid-scan changes taking up so much time.

 

I didn't like the c64 version at all back in the day, it was written from scratch and not completely faithful. Amongst the gameplay differences, the solar power generator was completely wrong. It also uses C64 hi-res hardware sprites.