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#26 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:42 AM

I have a harmony and had a CC2.

I have never noticed a menu speed difference.

#27 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:22 AM

Sounding good... as long as the scrolling through the games list is as quick as CC2 and not as slow as the original Harmony (especially going backwards).

A level comparison isn't possible here because 10 menu entries is all you can reasonably fit on a 2600, and a 7800 can hold many more. Harmony menu navigation is very fast going forward, especially skipping by 10 pages by holding down the button. The menu is only slow going backward when you throw a few thousand games in a single directory. The delay is due to reloading the directory because Harmony can't cache thousands of files.

Harmony 2 should be able to cache a lot of files so you shouldn't see the delays during navigation. Now note that you may see a delay of a second or two when first loading a large directory - this is because Harmony 2 will read actual FAT/FAT32 directories and parse them on the fly, while CC2 doesn't do that at all, instead relying on funky configuration files, which is something we are vehemently opposed to for Harmony.

Regardless, if you organize your games and keep directories smaller, you won't see any delays on either Harmony.

will play games that the CC2 won't

Aside from the obvious Pitfall 2, CC2 can play everything else. Are we talking about games being developed in the future?

The CC2 webpage indicates that it will not play certain games (which means Supercharger, Tigervision, Activision FE) on certain 7800s (i.e. that don't work with the real carts.) Harmony can play these games even on otherwise incompatible 7800s, and Harmony 2 will as well.

Edited by batari, Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:38 AM.


#28 Mayhem OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:37 PM

Fair enough, although that's a fault with the 7800 rather than the CC2 itself. But it's interesting to know that H2 will allow use on any 7800. What's done differently then?

#29 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:37 PM

Fair enough, although that's a fault with the 7800 rather than the CC2 itself. But it's interesting to know that H2 will allow use on any 7800. What's done differently then?

Harmony uses heuristics for its Supercharger, 3F and FE bankswitching to get past the timing kludge on some 7800s. Some of these heuristics might be too complex for the CC2 hardware.

However, I believe the CC2 might be capable of running those games even on incompatible 7800s, and it wouldn't even need heuristics. The 7800 cart port has access to signals that the regular 2600 cart port does not, such as PHI2, which might be utilized to latch valid addresses. As to why Chad didn't do this, I would have to guess that he didn't know how the 7800 timing kludge worked.

EDIT: I found an old thread where Chad called the timing kludge a high-pass filter, which it does resemble, but no signals will ever "pass" it so it's acting as a simple RC delay.

Edited by batari, Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:45 PM.


#30 Greg2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:52 PM

So no Pokey chip then?

#31 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:34 PM

So no Pokey chip then?

I may leave the footprint there if enough purists wish to add their own, bopefully we can replicate the hardware on the MCU good enough that nobody will be able to tell the difference.

#32 Allan ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:06 PM

So no Pokey chip then?

I may leave the footprint there if enough purists wish to add their own, bopefully we can replicate the hardware on the MCU good enough that nobody will be able to tell the difference.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier if you just included the footprint for people to add their own POKEY? You already have a lot to do to finish the cart.

Allan

#33 Mitch OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:09 PM

The CC2 webpage indicates that it will not play certain games (which means Supercharger, Tigervision, Activision FE) on certain 7800s (i.e. that don't work with the real carts.) Harmony can play these games even on otherwise incompatible 7800s, and Harmony 2 will as well.


As far as I'm aware they all work fine on the CC2 on all 7800s. Chad just put that on as a disclaimer.
Pitfall 2 is the only game I'm aware of that doesn't work. Obviously stuff like the Gameline doesn't work either.

Mitch

#34 mimo OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:39 AM

The CC2 webpage indicates that it will not play certain games (which means Supercharger, Tigervision, Activision FE) on certain 7800s (i.e. that don't work with the real carts.) Harmony can play these games even on otherwise incompatible 7800s, and Harmony 2 will as well.


As far as I'm aware they all work fine on the CC2 on all 7800s. Chad just put that on as a disclaimer.
Pitfall 2 is the only game I'm aware of that doesn't work. Obviously stuff like the Gameline doesn't work either.

Mitch


agreed, I never had a problem playing any of those with the 3 CC2's and all the different 7800s that I have

#35 rdemming OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:49 AM

Eessentially, it will do everything the CC2 can and more, and do it better.


Does this mean it will also do High Score Cart emulation or is that the only thing the CC2 can do what the H2 can't? :twisted:
Although I already have a CC2, I'm interested to have a H2 as well. You need to have backup hardware in case one fails :D

Robert

Edited by rdemming, Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:50 AM.


#36 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:54 AM

Can't wait for this.

Also - the one thing that will make this better than the CC2 in all respects - It will be available to purchase.

#37 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:48 AM

Looking forward to seeing this in action.

One thing though: you have to respect Chad for what he pulled off in the original Cuttle Cart II. This did pave the way and was well appreciated enough to sell out two production runs. Was there room for improvement? Absolutely. But I thought the original Cuttle Cart II was one of the most awesome things that it brought to the 7800 directly (ability to play old games, new games, prototype games on a real machine) and in-directly - Homebrew Development.




#38 Underball OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:31 AM

Looking forward to seeing this in action.

One thing though: you have to respect Chad for what he pulled off in the original Cuttle Cart II. This did pave the way and was well appreciated enough to sell out two production runs. Was there room for improvement? Absolutely. But I thought the original Cuttle Cart II was one of the most awesome things that it brought to the 7800 directly (ability to play old games, new games, prototype games on a real machine) and in-directly - Homebrew Development.

Oh absolutely.

I loved the hell out of mine, and hated to have to part with it when I was in financial dire straights.

My only issue with it at all was the simple fact that it went out of production and now fetches huge sums of money on eBay.

#39 desiv OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:31 AM

Wait? Does this mean I've missed my chance to sell my ULTRA RARE Cuttle Cart 2 on e-bait for $500!!!! Great!!!

Thanx alot!!!

:P :roll: :cool:

Seriously, nice work!!!!

desiv

#40 tep392 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:07 AM

This is at the top of my 7800 wish list! :lust: I'll buy it the minute it becomes available.

tep392

#41 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:14 AM

The CC2 webpage indicates that it will not play certain games (which means Supercharger, Tigervision, Activision FE) on certain 7800s (i.e. that don't work with the real carts.) Harmony can play these games even on otherwise incompatible 7800s, and Harmony 2 will as well.


As far as I'm aware they all work fine on the CC2 on all 7800s. Chad just put that on as a disclaimer.
Pitfall 2 is the only game I'm aware of that doesn't work. Obviously stuff like the Gameline doesn't work either.

Mitch


agreed, I never had a problem playing any of those with the 3 CC2's and all the different 7800s that I have

I probably read too much into Chad's disclaimer if those 7800s don't work with actual Superchargers. I suppose it doesn't matter.

Eessentially, it will do everything the CC2 can and more, and do it better.


Does this mean it will also do High Score Cart emulation or is that the only thing the CC2 can do what the H2 can't? :twisted:
Although I already have a CC2, I'm interested to have a H2 as well. You need to have backup hardware in case one fails :D

Robert

HSC is planned, and if it works as expected, it won't require a battery to maintain the high scores unlike the CC2.

Looking forward to seeing this in action.

One thing though: you have to respect Chad for what he pulled off in the original Cuttle Cart II. This did pave the way and was well appreciated enough to sell out two production runs. Was there room for improvement? Absolutely. But I thought the original Cuttle Cart II was one of the most awesome things that it brought to the 7800 directly (ability to play old games, new games, prototype games on a real machine) and in-directly - Homebrew Development.

CC2 is impressive due to its scale and complexity, and at the time, the conventional hardware approach was probably the only practical way to do it. The technology that makes Harmony practical has only been available for a few years, but even such, Harmony technology is still an unorthodox approach, and many said it would never work.

As for homebrew development, I would imagine that would be a bit of a pain on the CC2, though a little easier than burning EPROMs. I would imagine this would be required to develop a game for the CC2 (unless I am misunderstanding something):

1. Turn off 7800
2. Remove CC2
3. Remove card
4. Plug into card reader
5. Write new game image to card
6. Plug serial cable into CC2
7. Set up game image in CC2 software
8. Eject card
9. Plug into CC2
10. Plug CC2 into 7800
11. Power up 7800
12. Select game from menu

Harmony will provide a huge step up from that, and allow you to write a game directly to the cart's flash via USB and bypass the card and menu system entirely, so development would involve this:

1. Power down 7800
3. Upload new game
4. Power up 7800

We might even be able to simplify the process and allow you to upload a game while the 7800 is still running by using the Halt and/or IRQ line. Then the development process would be:

1. Upload new game

With the 7800 connected to a TV card on your PC, development on real hardware might be as easy as using an emulator.

Edited by batari, Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:15 AM.


#42 PacManPlus OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:00 PM

This is awesome news.

Thanks, Batari for making this a reality - you are ingenious!

I am in for one (or two, depending on the price - I have two Pokeys just waiting!)

Hopefully all goes as you planned.

Bob

#43 gambler172 ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:35 PM

Hi Batari
Cannot wait to get the H2.The Harmony cart is great and if H2 plays 7800 and 2600 files,this will be great.....
greetings Walter

#44 HammR25 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:45 PM

As for homebrew development, I would imagine that would be a bit of a pain on the CC2, though a little easier than burning EPROMs. I would imagine this would be required to develop a game for the CC2 (unless I am misunderstanding something):

1. Turn off 7800
2. Remove CC2
3. Remove card
4. Plug into card reader
5. Write new game image to card
6. Plug serial cable into CC2
7. Set up game image in CC2 software
8. Eject card
9. Plug into CC2
10. Plug CC2 into 7800
11. Power up 7800
12. Select game from menu

I'm pretty sure the CC2 simply has to be connected to the computer when in dev mode to get a new game onto it. No messing with cards or menus. It's a serial cable though so that's a drawback since serial ports are disappearing.

Otherwise if person is using a rom the menu only has to be setup once. If a person is developing something they can just make it the very first menu item or set the CC2 to go back to the last menu position. Then after that it's simply removing the MMC card from the CC2, plugging the MMC into the computer, drag and drop the game into the Games folder on the MMC then putting the MMC back into the CC2.

The Harmony 2 does sound like it'll be more consumer friendly though since it won't require a configuration file and people won't need to know which bankswitch scheme a particular game might use along with the other positives.

#45 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:01 PM

As for homebrew development, I would imagine that would be a bit of a pain on the CC2, though a little easier than burning EPROMs. I would imagine this would be required to develop a game for the CC2 (unless I am misunderstanding something):

1. Turn off 7800
2. Remove CC2
3. Remove card
4. Plug into card reader
5. Write new game image to card
6. Plug serial cable into CC2
7. Set up game image in CC2 software
8. Eject card
9. Plug into CC2
10. Plug CC2 into 7800
11. Power up 7800
12. Select game from menu

I'm pretty sure the CC2 simply has to be connected to the computer when in dev mode to get a new game onto it. No messing with cards or menus. It's a serial cable though so that's a drawback since serial ports are disappearing.

Otherwise if person is using a rom the menu only has to be setup once. If a person is developing something they can just make it the very first menu item or set the CC2 to go back to the last menu position. Then after that it's simply removing the MMC card from the CC2, plugging the MMC into the computer, drag and drop the game into the Games folder on the MMC then putting the MMC back into the CC2.

The Harmony 2 does sound like it'll be more consumer friendly though since it won't require a configuration file and people won't need to know which bankswitch scheme a particular game might use along with the other positives.

I looked at the CC2 manual. It does have a dev mode, which is good. It requires setup and some interaction with the 7800 to load files. Harmony will be easier of course, but the CC2 is easier than I thought.

Anyway, I'm spending too much time on the CC2/H2 comparison here, and making H2 better than CC2 is a tall order but that is the goal.

#46 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:29 PM

Harmony will provide a huge step up from that, and allow you to write a game directly to the cart's flash via USB and bypass the card and menu system entirely, so development would involve this:

We might even be able to simplify the process and allow you to upload a game while the 7800 is still running by using the Halt and/or IRQ line. Then the development process would be:

1. Upload new game

With the 7800 connected to a TV card on your PC, development on real hardware might be as easy as using an emulator.



Useability is definitely a good thing! Keep up the good work!

#47 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:33 PM

Wait? Does this mean I've missed my chance to sell my ULTRA RARE Cuttle Cart 2 on e-bait for $500!!!! Great!!!


Isn't everything on EBay "Rare"? :P


eBay Auction -- Item Number: 310233273021
eBay Auction -- Item Number: 330450263490
eBay Auction -- Item Number: 330450253327
eBay Auction -- Item Number: 300400081742
eBay Auction -- Item Number: 270605801966

#48 Corby OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:46 PM

Gimme Gimme Corby wants....H2!

IMG00086-20100502-2234.jpg

#49 kenfused OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:05 PM

I looked at the CC2 manual. It does have a dev mode, which is good. It requires setup and some interaction with the 7800 to load files. Harmony will be easier of course, but the CC2 is easier than I thought.

Anyway, I'm spending too much time on the CC2/H2 comparison here, and making H2 better than CC2 is a tall order but that is the goal.


Yep, with the CC2 it is essentially the same if the CC2 is put into DEV mode which is about the only way I use mine
Max serial transfer rate is 115,200bps (or 57,600 for PAL)

#50 HammR25 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:26 PM

I looked at the CC2 manual. It does have a dev mode, which is good. It requires setup and some interaction with the 7800 to load files. Harmony will be easier of course, but the CC2 is easier than I thought.

Anyway, I'm spending too much time on the CC2/H2 comparison here, and making H2 better than CC2 is a tall order but that is the goal.

I'm sure the H2 will be great and a very welcome device in the 7800 community.




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