NES Vs. Master System Sales - Rest Of World

[atarilovesyou]

Fair enough, Mod . I'd like to see some facts myself. The other thread, as far as I know, was about something completely else and I suggested a separate thread. I then had a life to get back to. I don't have any issues with The Laird and I usually try not to get baited like this.

 

I'd just like something a bit more substantial to go on than a poorly constructed graph and a book that was written by (surprise, surprise) ex-Nintendo employee.

[Chickybaby]

Looks like there are a lot of sales figures as well and other facts throughout others members posts as well. Always interesting to see comparisons and contrasts from the US, Europe, Asia etc esp when in term sof vid game sales. Thank you.

[atarilovesyou]

My whole point was that I disagreed with the theory that Nintendo became successful due to so-called "illegal marketing practices". The most legitimate articles discussed did suggest (nothing can be proven in this case, as Nintendo isn't talking) that the NES was a relative disappointment in the UK and other parts of the world. However, nobody is saying that Nintendo did this illegally, or by some form of heavy-handed tactics.

 

A sub-argument is that I feel the NES is a better system than the SMS...but that's just opinion, so I don't really care if one agrees or not. It's not that I don't care, either...it's just that opinions are simply that, opinions.

 

The good thing out of all this is that I like to read about successful companies, and I love reading about how Nintendo became (and still is) such a dominant force in video games.

[Atariboy]

The widely quoted official sales figure for the SMS worldwide is 13 million but does not include the Majesco or Tectoy produced models which were sold in Europe and South America.

 

This is the first I've ever heard of Majesco having any involvement with the Sega Master System. Their late 90s Genesis 3 and Game Gear reissues are well known, but there's more out there about their cancelled Sega Saturn redesign then anything about Majesco releasing SMS hardware (Which I can find no evidence of).

 

I'm pretty sure you aren't correct.

[The_Laird]

Possibly, might just have been Tectoy. Could have been getting confused with the Megadrive 3.

[high voltage]

Are you talking about 3rd party support?

 

The Master System was supported by Core Design, Domark, Tengen, Virgin, Codemasters, Bullfrog, US Gold, Epyx, Gremlin, Acclaim, Psygnosis and thats the people that sprung to mind first I am sure there were many more.

 

The topic is pretty much done now anyway as the point I was trying to make has been more than proved and its interesting that person who questioned it still hasn't responded

 

 

First off, you're awfully angry to be defending a system you admitted you didn't even like!..I'm going to bite, however, as I know you can't get on with your life until you bait me into ending this pitiful 'argument' of yours.

 

Gamers, when given a choice between Sega and NES for straight up, game vs game action, chose the NES. Although not in all cases...especially in cases where your name begins with "The". Really? Really. "The Laird has spoken; The Laird is ready to prove to you all that twenty years ago Nintendo cheated its way to the top and The Laird will prove The Truth relying on two sources!"...my nickname pays hommage to the most important video game system ever created, while you simply tag "The" in front of yours and demand respect. Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode..."I'm The Laird!..and NOOOOO-body beats me!"

 

...ok, first. That lame 'article'?...looks like the graph came from the back of a Wheaties box and you can tell how scientific and accurate it is by its high tech lack of numerical data! Instead, it relies on some typed bull text above, culminating in all kinds of official sounding jargon such as "heeheeheehee". Bunk, and you should be ashamed to use is as 'evidence'. But it gets better.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Over_(book)

 

...really? Let me expand the title of this book "Game Over" to include its subtitle:

 

Game Over: How Nintendo Zapped an American Industry, Captured Your Dollars, and Enslaved Your Children

 

Wow. I'm not even kidding; that's the title of this book! Now THAT'S a book that's going to offer fair, balanced and non-agenda based truths. Sounds like it was written by some bible-thumping clown who probably thought Pong was a little too violent in the 70's! Here's a tip: people write all kinds of crap to SELL BOOKS (especially to cranky parents who want a reason to blame for Little Johnny's poor grades other than their lack of parenting skills). If Nintendo was/is guilty of such wrong-doings, don't you think that Sega could have hired an arsenal of lawyers and fought tooth and nail against such an 'obvious' manipulator? Oh right...they were too busy advertising on Canadian television... while kids who knew better were busy playing their Nintendo Entertainment Systems. The enslaved children!...whatever shall be done about the ENSLAVED CHILDREN!?!!!?!

 

...hold the presses, folks: BRAZIL apparently sold more Master Systems than NESs!...how do we know this? Cause a few people here said so?...this entire argument is devoid of reality, folks. The reality is that the reason Master Systems sold well into the 90s while the rest of the world was moving on to N64 and Playstations could very well have been because the majority of people in Brazil couldn't afford new systems! That's not a slam on Brazilians, by the way. I'm sure if the NES was priced to match the SMS early on, it too may have continued to sell. But guess what...they were probably too busy selling new systems to the rest of world, thereby ensuring their business would live on while Sega pulled out after the Dreamcast fiasco! If you're selling 'new' systems at about 20 USD, then of course you're going to sell more...more subpar games! Were these Master Systems even legit machines, or were they cheap knock-offs?...who knows!

 

My simple point is this: history has proven what the 'better' system and company was. You and I may have a disagreement on personal tastes in video games, but the market bears the results: Nintendo for the win! Game per game, you just can't compare SMS to the NES. Yes, Sega had some good games. But not good enough, and they didn't allow third party developers the kind of support they needed to ensure the SMS could be a viable alternative to the NES.

 

The SMS cost more and provided less impressive games from the get-go. Nintendo easily quashed Sega's plans as smart businesses do, but really, they just put out better games. Period. They ensured their third party developers could design top notch games for the NES. Double period.. Nintendo took over because Atari screwed up. Nintendo did not repeat mistakes. It did nothing short of destroy the competition and no, not by some loony theory of shady legal doings, but by providing the MAJORITY of the world with the games that would see Nintendo dominate the video game industry for years to come.

 

Remove your tin-foil hat, The Laird. Turn of your Betamax. If you truly think that some conspiracy transpired to get Nintendo to the top, then obviously you didn't pay attention to the killer app which truly ended the 8 Bit wars before they began: Super F'in Mario Bros. End of story.

 

Now there's a "Game Over" you don't have to search Amazon to find!

 

 

Why you think you're kidding about the tile of the book Game Over, it is no joke....

 

How do you know Nintendo sold more systems? Becauce Nintendo said so? Also devoid of reality.

 

Nintendo didn't do 'smart' business, they did bullying tactics business in the USA.

Actually, other companies did hire lawyers and fought Nintendo in court, but in the end, money talks (Nintendo had loads from flogging the Famicom in Japan), the truth didn't matter anymore.

Nintendo's NES did NOT dominate in Europe, and that is already a proven fact.

 

Since I own the book Game Over (several editions), I don't even have to search for it on Amazon, I just have to open it and read, now...and here's an even better TIP from me to you: I'd suggest you try and get a copy of this fascinating, fact based book and do some reading yourself before even trying to make unknowledgeable comments about it.

You're like this American guy I've seen on TV: 'Hey you like Seinfeld'?....No, it's garbage....'Which episodes don't you like'?.....Don't know, I never watch the program.

 

On the other hand, maybe that book is a big lie, after all, it includes quotes/interviewed subjects like Howard Lincoln, Peter Main, Sigeru Miyamoto, Minoru Arakawa, Hiroshi Yamauchi, Bill White, Yoko Arakawa, Gail Tilden and many many more from the Nintendo stable...and you know what they're like...

 

BTW, against VHS, Betamax was the better video system.

Edited August 14, 2010 by high voltage

[atarilovesyou]

 

 

Since I own the book Game Over (several editions), I don't even have to search for it on Amazon, I just have to open it and read, now...and here's an even better TIP from me to you: I'd suggest you try and get a copy of this fascinating, fact based book and do some reading yourself before even trying to make unknowledgeable comments about it.

You're like this American guy I've seen on TV: 'Hey you like Seinfeld'?....No, it's garbage....'Which episodes don't you like'?.....Don't know, I never watch the program.

 

On the other hand, maybe that book is a big lie, after all, it includes quotes/interviewed subjects like Howard Lincoln, Peter Main, Sigeru Miyamoto, Minoru Arakawa, Hiroshi Yamauchi, Bill White, Yoko Arakawa, Gail Tilden and many many more from the Nintendo stable...and you know what they're like...

 

BTW, against VHS, Betamax was the better video system.

 

Your faith in one book (one rather hard to find book, as well) lets me know how much 'research' you're willing to do come up with an opinion. Much of what I said went straight over your head. Perhaps you can drop some quotes from those big names that proves Nintendo used strong-arm tactics to corner the markets? I'd like to read that.

 

The Beta thing was a joke; I know it's the 'better' system, but what happened to it? The same thing that happened to Sega. But whereas Nintendo learned from its mistakes, Sega did not. That is the reality of it.

 

Sega had plenty of money to fight against 'evil' Nintendo in the 80's...they ruled the arcades for a decade! I believe that in North America, the gamers chose what system was to succeed, and that's the NES. It sold more because it had BETTER games, that's something I can firmly say. Remember, I thought the SMS was really cool when I first saw it...but then, after a few years, you realized that it just wasn't Nintendo. While your friends were all playing the latest hits from Konami and Capcom, the SMS guys were stuck with arcade crossovers that didn't really translate to home, and a couple good RPGs (which Nintendo eventually dominated as well).

 

SMS failed because it had relatively poor games, IMO. No other reason in my mind. You can't blame Nintendo for giving gamers what they want, and if you're going to accuse them of stronghanded marketing tactics, then why didn't they rule the 90s when Sony began to dominate? Was that because of Sony's illegal marketing tactics too? Every video game store back in those days (yes, I was alive and buying in 'those days', lol) stocked Sega alongside Nintendo. To be fair, I never once saw an Atari 7800 system in a store, for what it's worth. Lynx, though, I did. For about a year.

 

And I'd like to hear what these 'tactics' were, as well. Refusing to allow Nintendo games to be sold along side Sega?...just didn't happen where I'm from. The retailers didn't carry as much Sega stuff because a) there wasn't as many releases coming out for Sega, b) shelf space was a premium, and if a retailer chose not to stock Sega games, it was because they weren't selling.

 

All in all, this is a fascinating topic. I'd like to see some proof of Nintendo treachery other than "Game Over". I'll show you a book written about Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger written in the 90s, at the height of is stardom. It ripped him apart and spread many false notions about the man, giving plenty of gossip for those that didn't particularly care for him or his success. I think "Game Over" isn't that far off the mark. Did you not realize that the author is an EX-Nintendo employee? Think about that.

Edited August 14, 2010 by atarilovesyou

[4Ks]

 

 

Since I own the book Game Over (several editions), I don't even have to search for it on Amazon, I just have to open it and read, now...and here's an even better TIP from me to you: I'd suggest you try and get a copy of this fascinating, fact based book and do some reading yourself before even trying to make unknowledgeable comments about it.

You're like this American guy I've seen on TV: 'Hey you like Seinfeld'?....No, it's garbage....'Which episodes don't you like'?.....Don't know, I never watch the program.

 

On the other hand, maybe that book is a big lie, after all, it includes quotes/interviewed subjects like Howard Lincoln, Peter Main, Sigeru Miyamoto, Minoru Arakawa, Hiroshi Yamauchi, Bill White, Yoko Arakawa, Gail Tilden and many many more from the Nintendo stable...and you know what they're like...

 

BTW, against VHS, Betamax was the better video system.

 

Your faith in one book (one rather hard to find book, as well) lets me know how much 'research' you're willing to do come up with an opinion. Much of what I said went straight over your head. Perhaps you can drop some quotes from those big names that proves Nintendo used strong-arm tactics to corner the markets? I'd like to read that.

 

The Beta thing was a joke; I know it's the 'better' system, but what happened to it? The same thing that happened to Sega. But whereas Nintendo learned from its mistakes, Sega did not. That is the reality of it.

 

Sega had plenty of money to fight against 'evil' Nintendo in the 80's...they ruled the arcades for a decade! I believe that in North America, the gamers chose what system was to succeed, and that's the NES. It sold more because it had BETTER games, that's something I can firmly say. Remember, I thought the SMS was really cool when I first saw it...but then, after a few years, you realized that it just wasn't Nintendo. While your friends were all playing the latest hits from Konami and Capcom, the SMS guys were stuck with arcade crossovers that didn't really translate to home, and a couple good RPGs (which Nintendo eventually dominated as well).

 

SMS failed because it had relatively poor games, IMO. No other reason in my mind. You can't blame Nintendo for giving gamers what they want, and if you're going to accuse them of stronghanded marketing tactics, then why didn't they rule the 90s when Sony began to dominate? Was that because of Sony's illegal marketing tactics too? Every video game store back in those days (yes, I was alive and buying in 'those days', lol) stocked Sega alongside Nintendo. To be fair, I never once saw an Atari 7800 system in a store, for what it's worth. Lynx, though, I did. For about a year.

 

And I'd like to hear what these 'tactics' were, as well. Refusing to allow Nintendo games to be sold along side Sega?...just didn't happen where I'm from. The retailers didn't carry as much Sega stuff because a) there wasn't as many releases coming out for Sega, b) shelf space was a premium, and if a retailer chose not to stock Sega games, it was because they weren't selling.

 

All in all, this is a fascinating topic. I'd like to see some proof of Nintendo treachery other than "Game Over". I'll show you a book written about Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger written in the 90s, at the height of is stardom. It ripped him apart and spread many false notions about the man, giving plenty of gossip for those that didn't particularly care for him or his success. I think "Game Over" isn't that far off the mark. Did you not realize that the author is an EX-Nintendo employee? Think about that.

 

You know, the only reason Nintendo had more games coming out for their NES is because they made game developers sign a contract, which stated they would not make games for 7800 or SMS. Capcom? Done. Midway? Signed. Konami? Penned. And the only reason any of these people signed is because they saw NES as a huge cash cow waiting to be milked, not because they actually thought NES was a better system. And lets face it, if Sega had done the same thing NES would be the system no one wants to play with Harrison Ford. Think about that.

 

And while you're at it, remember, NES is for...

[high voltage]

Arnold Schwarzenegger? You know the world had enough trouble because of one mad Austrian, don't need to know about another one.

Edited August 14, 2010 by high voltage

[atarilovesyou]

Arnold Schwarzenegger? You know the world had enough trouble because of one mad Austrian, don't need to know about another one.

 

Lol!...m'kay, you read my suggestion and I'll read yours

[atarilovesyou]

 

 

You know, the only reason Nintendo had more games coming out for their NES is because they made game developers sign a contract, which stated they would not make games for 7800 or SMS. Capcom? Done. Midway? Signed. Konami? Penned. And the only reason any of these people signed is because they saw NES as a huge cash cow waiting to be milked, not because they actually thought NES was a better system. And lets face it, if Sega had done the same thing NES would be the system no one wants to play with Harrison Ford. Think about that.

 

And while you're at it, remember, NES is for...

 

 

If you spell NES backwards...you set SEN, or if you look harder, SatEn, which of course is the ultimate evil .

 

And I'm aware of the exclusivity clauses, but that's hardly illegal. Where are the blood oaths?...the midnight rituals where children lost their souls to Mario n' Luigi?...lol, perhaps these clauses were a bit tough but remember the state of the video game industry after the shakeout in 83. Even though the UK (apparently) didn't notice, they were still affected by the results of the crash if only by the direction Nintendo took in other parts of the world.

[NinjaWarrior]

Period Nintendo just bullied eveyone in the US

 

Nintendo was afrade of the Market with the Master System & the 7800

 

So they made 3rd Party Comps sign a contract to make games for only the NES

 

That wasn't fair

[atarilovesyou]

Period Nintendo just bullied eveyone in the US

 

Nintendo was afrade of the Market with the Master System & the 7800

 

So they made 3rd Party Comps sign a contract to make games for only the NES

 

That wasn't fair

 

How isn't that fair? This happens all the time in business...although the gov't agreed with you, for in 91 they forced Nintendo to relinquish that contractual obligation. I'm sure if Capcom and Konami really wanted to design games for the Master System they could have caused more of a stink, but the market obviously didn't warrant such speading of resources.

 

The 7800...really, the only time I ever even heard of that system being mentioned in my neck of the woods was in one of the first issues of Video Games and Electronic Gaming monthly (it had a big feature on Blaster Master). It reviewed a bunch of 7800 games. Being a fan of Atari, I was kinda pumped even though it was hard to get excited in those days about games like Battlezone when Blaster Master was on the NES. People wanted innovation.

[high voltage]

Period Nintendo just bullied eveyone in the US

 

Nintendo was afrade of the Market with the Master System & the 7800

 

So they made 3rd Party Comps sign a contract to make games for only the NES

 

That wasn't fair

 

How isn't that fair? This happens all the time in business...although the gov't agreed with you, for in 91 they forced Nintendo to relinquish that contractual obligation. I'm sure if Capcom and Konami really wanted to design games for the Master System they could have caused more of a stink, but the market obviously didn't warrant such speading of resources.

 

The 7800...really, the only time I ever even heard of that system being mentioned in my neck of the woods was in one of the first issues of Video Games and Electronic Gaming monthly (it had a big feature on Blaster Master). It reviewed a bunch of 7800 games. Being a fan of Atari, I was kinda pumped even though it was hard to get excited in those days about games like Battlezone when Blaster Master was on the NES. People wanted innovation.

 

Well, no, if people wanted innovation they would have continued with STs and Amiga computers, innovation happend on those, not consoles, especially not the NES.

Edited August 15, 2010 by high voltage

[PsychoKittyNet]

Computers were not as successful, if I remember correctly because they were too expensive, even by todays standards. Also, Godwins Law? Srsly?

[atarilovesyou]

Period Nintendo just bullied eveyone in the US

 

Nintendo was afrade of the Market with the Master System & the 7800

 

So they made 3rd Party Comps sign a contract to make games for only the NES

 

That wasn't fair

 

How isn't that fair? This happens all the time in business...although the gov't agreed with you, for in 91 they forced Nintendo to relinquish that contractual obligation. I'm sure if Capcom and Konami really wanted to design games for the Master System they could have caused more of a stink, but the market obviously didn't warrant such speading of resources.

 

The 7800...really, the only time I ever even heard of that system being mentioned in my neck of the woods was in one of the first issues of Video Games and Electronic Gaming monthly (it had a big feature on Blaster Master). It reviewed a bunch of 7800 games. Being a fan of Atari, I was kinda pumped even though it was hard to get excited in those days about games like Battlezone when Blaster Master was on the NES. People wanted innovation.

 

Well, no, if people wanted innovation they would have continued with STs and Amiga computers, innovation happend on those, not consoles, especially not the NES.

 

Perhaps a better word to use was 'something new'...comparing the ST and Amiga to a 150 dollar console though is kinda like apples and oranges, but I get what you're saying. Although my buddy had an ST and I can't remember playing too many games for it...I do remember a title on Amiga though that really changed the way I looked at computer gaming: Warmonger, I think it was called. But by then, I was also getting into Games Workshop stuff and other games.

[pinball22]

Computers were not as successful, if I remember correctly because they were too expensive, even by todays standards.

 

A C64 and a 1541 drive cost $400 when my parents got me one in 1985. They may not have been quite as successful vs. consoles here in the US as they were in Europe, but they were still extremely popular -- more of my friends in the mid-80s owned a C64 than an NES.

[PsychoKittyNet]

Computers were not as successful, if I remember correctly because they were too expensive, even by todays standards.

 

A C64 and a 1541 drive cost $400 when my parents got me one in 1985. They may not have been quite as successful vs. consoles here in the US as they were in Europe, but they were still extremely popular -- more of my friends in the mid-80s owned a C64 than an NES.

 

I was a kid then so im not 100%. My first computer was a Mac in 93 I think and it cost us nearly 2 grand.

[pinball22]

I was a kid then so im not 100%. My first computer was a Mac in 93 I think and it cost us nearly 2 grand.

 

Macs and PCs were always expensive, yes. But the big gaming computers of the mid 80s, the C64s and Atari 400/800/etc, weren't.

[kool kitty89]

I am just starting this topic to prove to atarilovesyou (funny name for such a massive NES fan ) that the Sega Master System beat the NES with ease outside the markets of North America and Japan.

 

As we know in other markets Nintendo couldn't enforce their unfair market tactics (which were illegal) and so had to fight on a level playing field against the SMS and Atari consoles.

 

Its pretty hard to find any sales figures to back this up, even though its well known, although I did find the following article:

 

NES Sales

 

Nintendo only shipped 8.56m NES consoles in non-Americas & Japan regions. That figure has been topped by both SNES and Wii in “Others” as well as Nintendo’s portables and numerous platforms from rival companies.

 

Thats shipped and not sold and taking into account how large an area that covers that just shows how poor sales figures were in other regions versus North America and Japan.

 

I found links that quote that the Master System sold just 1.5 million in North America

 

SMS Sales North America

 

* Unit sales of video game systems in North America to date: Sega Master System 1.5 million, Sega Genesis 19 million, Saturn 1 million, [378.59]

 

The widely quoted official sales figure for the SMS worldwide is 13 million but does not include the Majesco or Tectoy produced models which were sold in Europe and South America. Without them this leaves a figure of 11.5 million which includes Japan where I believe they a superior version of the SMS with a different name anyway. Its also worth noting that the NES did very well in other parts of Asia which is quoted within the 8.56 million figure.

 

I know that in the UK and Europe the SMS was supported up until 1996, the NES had been dropped many years before. I myself worked for Game in the UK during 1993/1994 and we were still selling a ton of SMS systems and games but no longer sold the NES.

It's a complex issue, but one big thing about it was marketing and timing. In Japan, the Famicom came in 1983 and jumpstarted the home console industry there, albeit gradually growing at first but picking up rapidly by '84 I think (and increasing even more in '85 onward). Sega jumped in with the SG-1000 on the same day as the FC, but with rather dated off-the-shelf hardware it didn't really stand up well in spite of Sega's Arcade name and the initial reliability problems with the FC.

Prior to that the Japanese home consoles were rather limited beyond pong consoles and such with a couple like the casettevision and another I can't think of, and neither had managed to pick up very significantly. The lack of a localization of the VCS was rather significant though... and the 2800 did finally come until several weeks AFTER the SG-1000 and FC launched. (at that point, a localization of the 5200 would have been a lot more realistic -definitely would have needed to be a lot smaller to be attractive to the JP mass market, the real shame is not pushing a VCS localization back in '80/81)

 

So basically, 1983 in Japan was sort of like 1977/78 in the US in terms of microcomputer based home video game consoles. (I think '85 is when it really exploded like the VCS did after Space Invaders, but I'm not positive on that) The big issue is that while North America has the huge decline in the home console market, Japan's market is just getting started. (and over in Europe the home computer gaming market is starting to get big)

 

That leads to Nintendo already having healthy (and growing) developer support in Japan when Sega launched the Mk.III in 1985, which finally put up some good hardware competition, but Nintendo already had the established support, so Sega was largely left to publish games by themselves with very limited 3rd party support in spite of the somewhat better hardware. (albeit the stock sound was a little weak on the Mk.III -and both the FC and Mk.III had audio expansion used, FC on-cart or with the FDC and Mk.III with an add-on -FC always had superior digital sample playback though with the onboard 7-bit PCM/DPCM channel, and then there's the mapper chips and other video expansion on the FC)

 

 

So regardless of everything else, Nintendo was going to have an advantage with 3rd party developers in Japan and also more influence on those developers (especially those with good relationships with Nintendo). That would be one significant edge for jumping into the western market, though not THE deciding factor.

 

 

In 1985 you had Nintendo push a test market in NYC to rather mediocre reception even considering the recent crash, but conversely, Atari Corp. noted sales picking up significantly and actually running out of inventory of 2600s in late 1985 (Michael Katz commented that they could have sold a lot more if they had the production capacity): that cued Atari to launch the 2600 Jr and 7800 the next Spring (the 7800 in particular had been delayed due to contention over ownership with Tramiel and Warner -due to GCC being contracted with Warner and not Atari Inc.). Nintendo expanded the test market in early 1986 starting with LA and gradually expanding text markets until they finally made a real nationwide launch in September. (with SMB pack-in) The 7800 and SMS had actually launched nationwide earlier than that, I believe, and the general market consensus was that Nintendo, Atari, and Sega were on very even footing on a very open market at that point.

This article in particular is interesting on the subject: http://tnca.myrmid.com/art9.htm

 

1986 and 1987 is where the critical differences came for the US: Nintendo and Sega both had very competitive early software lineups and similar pricing, and though Atari's was a bit more limited it had a significant price advantage, access tot he 2600 library which was still growing), and the Atari name recognition with video games. (something Nintendo wouldn't really start to get until late 1987) -some site "Atari" still having trouble with retailers at that point, but it seems like that really had been a non-issue after the crash settled down.

The main issues at that point were funding, marketing, and software development (largely 1st party at that point -entirely 1st party published for Sega and Atari) and Atari Corp was limited by a tight budget which limited both promotions and software development -Katz did a pretty good job in spite of that though.

Sega and Nintendo both had considerably more funds at their disposal, but while Nintendo had generally quite capable marketing in 86/87, Sega's was pretty mediocre if not downright poor in some cases: funky TV and print ads, odd and rather unattractive packaging and box art, etc. That did change pretty dramatically in 1988 with Tonka taking over North American distribution (look at the shift in 1986/87 to 1988 box art -especially something like Miracle Warrior), but by then Nintendo had already established itself as the market leader and was digging in further with the harsh, anticompetitive, (and in several areas illegal) licensing policies on 3rd parties. (both western developers and Japanese developers wishing to publish in the US -granted, Nintendo loosened some restrictions at their discression in the cases of several key developers -not so much in allowing multiplatform development, but in terms of the restriction on number of titles and cart production volumes -companies like Namco for example). -of course, those publishing in Japan didn't really have any licensing restrictions givne the total lack of any security on the Famicom. (also a fair amount of piracy going on too -much more so in mainland Asia and eastern Europe with the Dendy) And in the case of legality: it was indeed found in court that Nintendo was guilty of antitrust violations with Atari Games' (Tengen) law suit finally being won in the early 90s with sizable damages being paid to Atari Games. (Atari Corp. had also sued, but ended up settling out of court)

 

So, Atari was stuck due to funding limitations as well as the 7800's architecture being a rather tough transition to the standard computer/arcade/home consoles by that point (any transitioning from the VCS probably would fare much better). Sega had the software, hardware, and money, but totally mismanaged marketing in the critical 1986/87 period. And Nintendo got it right with funds and good marketing, not to mention a real killer pack-in with Super Mario Bros in 1986. (nothing was really definitive until the end of 1987 though, but after that Nintendo was getting increasingly hard to crack with over 70% market share in 1988 and roughly 90% in 1989 and 1990 -their peak years in the US)

In spite of the limited funding, Atari managed to maintain a substantial lead in market share over Sega in the US up to the release of the Genesis and the 7800 even manged to sell 3.77 million units in the United States alone given the official Atari Corp documents from 1986-1990 sales (and the 3.77 million is with returns subtracted as well) Of course, the market share would have been including 2600 sales as well (and limited XEGS sales), so the SMS could have easily outsold the 7800 and still left Sega at the bottom in market share. (no solid figures on SMS sales AFIK -some references to a vague 2 million units for the US)

an interesting previous discussion on this: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/143762-atari-panther/page__st__50__p__1878590#entry1878590

 

 

But then you have Europe, where Nintendo did well in some regions but weaker in others (especially the UK), with Germany in particular being strong with Nintendo (more so with the SNES I think), with the UK being the pinnacle of Sega popularity for the SMS and MD I believe. (and also one of the strong markets for Atari Corp's consoles and computers including the Lynx -and I think Germany was also one of the European strong points for Atari, but more specifically the ST; and I think the Atari 8-bits never really got big in Europe for some reason).

Atari had the same sort of funding limitations, but the consoles supposedly did better overall in Europe than the US (which is saying something given the 7800 did reasonably well in the US -and would imply that the 7800 likely sold over 8 million units worldwide).

Nintendo had a head start in some areas over Sega, but was late in cases like the UK, and in many cases had poor distribution/marketing (or rather the companies used for local distribution in several companies were rather poor at marketing). Sega generally had better marketing, strong ties to the arcade (with a rather healthy European arcade market at the time -depending on the country), and had very good marketing in several cases (or, again, marketing/distribution handled by the native companies charged with such by Sega -a shame Sega hadn't used Tonka in the US from the start). You also had the noticeably superior graphics (closer to ST or Amiga in some cases than the NES's more C64 resembling graphics), the budget card games, and other things like better sports games. (especially Soccer)

 

Europe also had the booming home computer market to contend with, which crossed-over much more closely with the console market than the computer market in the US. That, and the more even popularity with Sega made it difficult for Nintendo to implement the licensing constraints as they had in the US, and if they DID try it, it would only put them at a disadvantage to more accessible platforms. (as it was, some European developers even opted to publish unlicensed, including some like Codemasters doing so under their Camerica label in the US)

 

Mighael Katz had to work hard to break into Nintendo's market in the US with the Genesis, but managed to do surprisingly well and Kalinske followed up though with a shift in some management policies. (Sonic was a windfall of course that came at the perfect time to marginalize the SNES's launch and really open the flood gates for the new generation)

NEC was sort of stuck in the US with the TG-16 by comparison, they had marketing problems as well as a big issue with Nintendo's dominance over 3rd parties (and NEC's Japanese library of games being rather significantly 3rd party opposed to Sega's huge 1st party publishing). It makes me wonder if NEC might have been a lot more successful if they'd pushed for Europe instead. (especially with the attractive, compact PCE form factor over the bulkier TG-16)

 

There was a somewhat related discussion (especially SMS/NES related) here: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12642&page=4 (mostly on pages 5-8 but more or less starting on 4)

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting post but fact tells us that the 7800 actually outsold the SMS in the US, which as much as I love the 7800 still surprises me!

 

Which is why I'm skeptical of posted sales numbers. (Back in the day) 7800 who? I knew of the SMS, NES, Amiga, ST, C64, A8, 5200/2600, Coleco, etc. I never saw one 7800, nor knew it existed, or anything. And yet it out sold the SMS (which every kid I know that played games back then, knew what an SMS was even if they didn't have one)? That doesn't add up.

Yeah, I don't think there are good figures for the SMS in the US... if the ~2 million figure is true, then the 7800 was much more popular, but otherwise it would imply the SMS probably sold more than double that in the US alone. (In the United States -not North America- Atari Corp's detailed sales charts show approximately 3.77 million units sold through 1990 -with '87 and '88 being the years where over 70% of those were sold -and steeply declining after that with only ~655k sold in '89 and under 100k in '90)

 

Even if the 7800 sold better, one factor would have been the media saturation: Sega had a LOT more funding for advertisements, and in particular a lot more TV ads. (Atari focused a significant amount of what they did have on print ads). It's also very likely that the 2600 Jr outsold the 7800 in that time period (it was the biggest budget system around for sure -and seems to have persisted longer on the retail level given anecdotes from both US and UK people remembering 2600s on the shelves after the 7800 had disappeared -especially UK accounts on the subject).

 

If the 7800 outsold the SMS anywhere, it would most likely have been the US (maybe Canada) given the popularity of the SMS elsewhere. (and even if the 7800 did a bit better in Europe, the SMS would have been huge by comparison)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My whole point was that I disagreed with the theory that Nintendo became successful due to so-called "illegal marketing practices". The most legitimate articles discussed did suggest (nothing can be proven in this case, as Nintendo isn't talking) that the NES was a relative disappointment in the UK and other parts of the world. However, nobody is saying that Nintendo did this illegally, or by some form of heavy-handed tactics.

As I mentioned above, yes, illegal and proven by ruling in US court in Atari Games' (Tengen) antitrust lawsuit.

Remember these restrictions included: limited number of games per-year able to be published without Nintendo's express permissions, volume of carts produced and date of those being available were entirely set at Nintendo's discretion, developers publishing for the NES could not publish for another video game console for a period of 2 years, among other things. (that hurt smaller companies the most as they couldn't fight back or work through loopholes like using subsidiary publishers like Konami's Ultra or Acclaim's LJN label)

Nitnendo established those conditions after they had the clout to do it (ie the majority market share in the US by the end of 1987).

 

A sub-argument is that I feel the NES is a better system than the SMS...but that's just opinion, so I don't really care if one agrees or not. It's not that I don't care, either...it's just that opinions are simply that, opinions.

In terms of game library (especially in the US), it's an easy win for the NES, but technically speaking, the SMS is more capable generally speaking. (mainly the color capabilities with 15 or 16 colors per tile vs 3 or 4 colors on the NES -the onboard audio is almost universally better on the NES: there are a few cases where 3 concurrent square wave channels could be more useful, but most of the time the NES has a considerable edge in sound capabilities -if not resulting sound as that's up to programmers/composers) The fact that both the SMS and NES were robbed of their audio expansion capabilities is a bit unfortunate.

Edited August 30, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Blur2040]

I think that if you're discussing platform popularity/sales, you have to think about clones. Not just Majesco or TecToy stuff, but shady, unlicensed ones. For example. Dendy was a famicom/NES clone that was popular in Russia. "Dendy" was synonymous with video games, there. Millions sold.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Blur2040

[carmel_andrews]

The reason why both the NES/SNES failed to get decent market share in UK/Europe (compared to it's sega equivalents) was largely due to Nintendo's then policy on software publishing/development (i.e tying up software devlopers/publishers to developing/publishing games content EXCLUSIVELY for nintendo for a specified period, which i think was 2 to 3 years unless i am much mistaken)

 

The reason why that policy worked in markets like the US and Asia is largely because fewer and few developers/publishers wanted to stick to supporting the American consoles (i.e Atari, Coleco, Inty etc), also there was a slight shift from console games development to computer games development (3rd party), because of the residue of the market crash that had just happened, it started having a slight effect on computer games development and publishing and also publishers/developers wanted to see how the upscale computer formats like the apple IIgs/amiga and ST would fare (so far as 3rd party software support was concerned)

 

The problem for nintendo was, was that it didn't research the UK/european games publishing/games development market properly or at all, nintendo wrongly assumed that whatever business practice/policy worked in asia and the US would also work in europe/uk, unfortunately nintendo's policy on games/software development for their platform would severly hamper/restrict their access or objectivesd for their platforms so far as the UK/european markets were concerned (in other words, it basically blocked them out of that market)

 

If nintendo had done their research into the games market in UK/europe it would have found out that those markets had a historical preference for 'mulit platform/format' publishing and development and additionally perfer total independence from hardware manufacturers, if they had followed those markets properly they would have found that only a handfull of publishers were interested in supporting a particular format over other formats (the only company in that area that comes to mind is Psion; yes the same Psion that would later revolutionise and pioneer the handheld/mobile computer device market)

 

Also, what nintendo failed to notice is that the hardware market in europe/uk was more volotile and more competitive in europe/UK then the same markets in Asia/US, hardware companies were literally coming and going virtualy overnight, that was also one of the main reason's why software houses in europe/UK didn't like the idea of supporting just one platform or writing content exclusively just for one platform, because there was no guarantee that that particular system/platform would be successful and software companies didn't want to be left with stock they could not sell if that platform failed, bearing in mind that nintendo, just like the other hardware companies that were coming and going almost overnight were practically unknown as a games hardware manufacturer (at least in UK/europe) and asking software houses in these markets to litterally stop supporting existing formats and start programming content exclusively for nintendo, just was'nt going to happen, since there was no guarantee from nintendo that their platform would be successful in these markets and also that the nintendo software that these software companies were exsclusively programming for nintendo were also going to be successful in these markets

 

Secondly, as the MMC (Monopolies and Mergers Commision, later rebranded the competition commision) later proved, that nintendo's practices/policies in the above area was a contravention/transgression of the UK and EU competition and monopoly laws and also it was technically operating a cartel (which is an illegal business practice in both UK/EU and EEFTA markets) software companies were obviously aware of this prior to the MMC investigation and subsequent ruling and didn't want to be a part of this illegal practice/enterprise, subsequently, what little content was published by uk/european games companies for the nintendo formats, were either variants of IP's already published by the same pubishers on other formats or simply nintendo conversions of the same IP's, note that very little UK/European nintendo software was actually released in these markets, mostly and only released for jap/US NTSC markets (where the console was somewhat more successful)

 

Thankfully, the nintendo policy that blocked them out of the UK/euro market actually helped the likes of Atari/Commodore to survive because if software houses had opted for the likes of nintendo, as opposed to support St/Amiga games development/publishing, it was very doubtful that atari/commoodore would have survived for more then 2 or 3 years (since atari's previous owners were'nt very good at marketing atari in these markets and commodore's objectives had started shifting to the amiga, which sort of left the c64 etc an afterthought)

Edited August 30, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[Video]

You know, I got systems based on the games that I liked. I could give a damn less whatsold in the rest of the world (or even the US for that matter) I bought what I wanted.

 

Also, do those sales numbers take into account, clones? You know, like the 20 different nintendo versions you will find in any game store to this day? Where are the SMS clones? I'd get one if they were available. Due to being a nintendo fan (yeah, I said it) I never got into the SMS, untill well after it was dead, and now, finding working systems is a chore.

[carmel_andrews]

Just to point out, that most of the initial supporters of the NES, i.e sony, konami and dataeast/capcom etc, nintendo picked them up after the MSX failed in the US (since these publishers were key supporters of the MSX format) the likes of EA, Activision and Acclaim etc only came later, and if you followed things properly, they (the US publishers) merely converted existing games from their back catalog/ue to the nintendo format (or variants of existing IP's etc), i guess those publishers (i.e activision, EA, Acclaim etc) did this to get around the exclusivity aspect of nintendo's policy/contract

 

Another way they got around it, is by releasing a sega version (or non nintendo versions) first, then saying they were releasing a nintendo version therafter (which also got around nintendo's exclusivity policy/contract)

 

Also, one thing realy did surprise me, considering that nintendo followed their initial software publishing/development policy up until 1991 when they basically ditched the exclusivity aspect (as sega had by then caught up with them) and also allowed the publishers/devlopers to sell/market their own content (though they still had to get certain parts from nintendo) was that before nintendo changed this policy, why didn't any european or uk software publisher take nintendo to court over it's software publishing policy/practice...not only could that have cleaned out nintendo financially (since they could have contested that nintendo's policy prohibited competition in the games publishing/development market and also nintendo technically operated a cartel (as they controlled the prices the consumer paid for the software and also controlled the amount of game's content published/developed by third parties) and not only that they could have permanently blocked nintendo from releasing any new hardware in the UK/European market

Edited August 31, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[ApolloBoy]

Just to point out, that most of the initial supporters of the NES, i.e sony, konami and dataeast/capcom etc, nintendo picked them up after the MSX failed in the US (since these publishers were key supporters of the MSX format)

Erm, no. The reason why Konami, Capcom, etc. were picked up by Nintendo of America was mainly because they had a proven track record in Japan, it had nothing to do with the failure of the MSX in the US. In fact, I think the only MSX that was even released in the US was the Yamaha CX5M, which was marketed towards musicians, not gamers.