Getting into the Apple II

[ApolloBoy]

I'm starting to get interested in the Apple II, which I used way back in elementary school and haven't played with since. I've been looking at the various AII models out there, and so far I've narrowed it down to either the IIc, IIe and the IIGS. Which would be better for someone who just wants to play games, and how would I go about connecting the AII to a Mac? I have floppy-free setups for my 130XE (SIO2PC) and C64 (1541UII), and I'd like to have the same kind of setup for an Apple II.

[Nukey Shay]

IIe would be pretty tough to beat. IIc has a nice smaller footprint, but it's keyboard isn't the greatest for stuff that needs a lot of key input (like those Infocom adventures)...and outta luck if you are looking into installing any of the custom cards that were built for the II series (Mockingboard, etc). Never used a IIgs, so I can't comment on that one.

[CGQuarterly]

I have a //c+ that I am interested in selling. Those are somewhat rare though, so I'm not looking to give it away. I'd have to check into the current going rate before putting a price on it, but let me know if you are interested. The only problem is that since it comes with a 3.5" disk drive built in, you'd have to buy a 5.25" drive, since I don't have a spare to sell.

 

Chris

[desiv]

Interesting question..

 

The IIc is nice and compact.. And, if you get it with the green screen monochrome monitor they sold with it, it feels VERY RETRO.

(I literally was JUST playing mine minutes ago...)

Of course, it can also do color, but for the IIc, I like the green screen. :-)

 

However, if you REALLY want to play Apple games, you'll want color and probably a sound card eventually.

That means bigger Apple II... The IIe is the one to go for because they made so many of them.

 

It's easy to add cards, work on, etc.. It does take up more space, but the Apple color monitor fits nicely.

(And if you get the duel drives instead of 2 Disk ][s, it looks especially nice..)

 

I wouldn't rule out a IIc tho. It outputs standard video, so any device with RCA video in will work and it will probably be less to ship... Either would be great...

 

****NOTE*****

IF you get a IIe, you will need/want a SSC (Super Serial Card) so you can transfer games over a serial cable.

The IIc comes with a serial port, so you just need (or make) a cable.

The IIe, you need the SSC.

 

Good luck,

 

desiv

Edited September 24, 2010 by desiv

[Ken Gagne]

Most of the games you'll want to play are probably 8-bit and will run fine on any of those three models, whereas the 16-bit games will require an Apple IIGS. I personally prefer the IIGS due to its backward compatibility, greater on-board RAM, and faster CPU -- it can do everything the IIe can do, and then some. But the IIe and IIc certainly have a more retro feel to them.

 

As for choosing between the 8-bit models, it depends on whether you intend to make additional investments in the hardware. The IIe is more expandable, while the IIc is more compact and portable.

 

For getting files off your Mac, I'd recommend ADTPro. There are literally dozens of other methods for transferring files to the Apple II, but not all of them are as obvious or painless as this one — though the additional cables you'll need may cost you more than the Apple II did!

[desiv]

IF you get a IIe, you will need/want a SSC (Super Serial Card) so you can transfer games over a serial cable.

 

Hey, quoting myself??

 

Well, apparently I lied..

The new version of ADT (ADTPro) supports AUDIO transfer supposedly..

 

So you don't "need" serial to transfer files...

 

Interesting...

 

desiv

[ApolloBoy]

So if I get an Apple IIe, then I can just transfer disk images over the cassette jacks? How fast would that be?

[Nukey Shay]

300 baud.

 

Would the game controller port method be faster? I dunno it's rate.

[danny_galaga]

Ahhhh (",)

 

We had Apple IIe's in high school. Did a bit of basic, one or two 'type in' games that never worked properly. Everyone was crazy about Castle Wolfenstein, I still remember that synthesised speech as the guards confronted you. "SWINEHUND!"

 

hehe. I myself preferred this game that was kinda Conan the Barbarian. There were these floating eyeballs that gave me the willies...

 

Edit- Conan: Hall of Volta! I was close...

 

Edited September 25, 2010 by danny_galaga

[Tempest]

There is a special version of the mockingboard for the IIc so if that's the one you want, don't let that stop you (it's pretty rare though).

 

If you want a nice easy to use system with 100% compatibility go with the IIe. Get two drives and a super serial card and you're all set.

 

Tempest

[desiv]

So if I get an Apple IIe, then I can just transfer disk images over the cassette jacks? How fast would that be?

 

From one of the videos I saw on it, I believe they said it takes about 20 minutes per disk.

 

Not bad really, and it adds to that "retro" feel.

 

desiv

[Hatta]

IIes are great, common, cheap, and capable. But the IIgs has advantages. Get a ROM3 and you have enough RAM for a RAM disk, saves floppies. The serial port is built in. You can use an Extended Keyboard with it. It's twice as fast. It's fully compatible with every Apple II game I've tried. The quality of the 16 bit game library is really good too.

 

The IIgs makes it really easy to get files onto the Apple II too. Anything that's on a .dsk image I just use ADT pro. If I need single files, I use LocalTalk. You can boot the IIgs from localtalk into GS/OS and drag and drop whatever you want onto the RAMdisk. Reboot into 8-bit mode and everything's still on the RAM disk. More convenient than ZMODEM. For GS/OS games, I just leave the files on the shared hard disk and play from there.

 

Since you mentioned flash devices, there's a new CFFA coming out soon. The old CFFA was just mass storage, but this one emulates floppy drives. That should free us from floppies soon enough. For now ADTPro is awesome.

[ApolloBoy]

So if I get an Apple IIe, then I can just transfer disk images over the cassette jacks? How fast would that be?

 

From one of the videos I saw on it, I believe they said it takes about 20 minutes per disk.

 

Not bad really, and it adds to that "retro" feel.

 

desiv

Well if it takes that long, then forget it. I think right now I'm leaning towards a IIc, and I might get some kind of flash device so that it isn't tied to my Mac every time I want to play something. What flash solutions exist for the Apple II so far?

Edited September 25, 2010 by ApolloBoy

[Tempest]

The IIgs is about 97% compatible with Apple II stuff. It has issues with some cracked software and multi-game boot loaders.

 

 

Tempest

[Nukey Shay]

Aren't Macs supposed to be able to read/write ProDOS files directly?

[desiv]

From one of the videos I saw on it, I believe they said it takes about 20 minutes per disk.

Well if it takes that long, then forget it.

Ouch.. It's not like you're making disks all the time. You can start one while your doing something else and let it go..

 

Maybe its because I was never really a "console kid," but I don't understand the "need for speed" so to speak...

Patience is a good thing..

I think right now I'm leaning towards a IIc, and I might get some kind of flash device so that it isn't tied to my Mac every time I want to play something. What flash solutions exist for the Apple II so far?

Well, that probably takes you away from the IIc then.. Flash devices require a slot... A real slot. (There is this guy on e-bait I've seen selling the "rare" IIc with a slot!! It's not a real Apple II slot.. It's just that that model used a slot for it's memory. It's not usable for anything else..)

 

If you want the benefits of a IIc with some expandability, you can get the Laser 128.

I always wanted one of those.. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=13

 

Although, if you want Flash AND a soundcard (The Mockingboard-D (for the IIc) is pretty rare), you might be better off with a //e. Even the Laser 128 will get you Flash OR Sound, but not at the same time (unless you get the Mockingboard-D or the probably even more rare dual card slot for the Laser 128).

 

desiv

[JamesD]

Since you mentioned flash devices, there's a new CFFA coming out soon. The old CFFA was just mass storage, but this one emulates floppy drives. That should free us from floppies soon enough. For now ADTPro is awesome.

Just remember that "soon" could be a couple months or more. No release date has been given yet.

[tjb]

I like the IIc myself mainly because it has a built in floppy drive. They are pretty durable as well. I also really like the Laser 128 clone. I got one mainly because it was compatible with this device:

CFFA For Apple II

 

 

tjb

[desiv]

I also really like the Laser 128 clone. I got one mainly because it was compatible with this device:

CFFA For Apple II

 

The CFFA 3000 (new version they are working on) looks really nice...

 

He said he has made over 1000 of them (the original CFFA)!!!!!

 

That's one SERIOUS hobby/side biz!!!

No idea what his overhead is, but, that's over/around $100,000 changing hands!!!

 

desiv

[Tempest]

Aren't Macs supposed to be able to read/write ProDOS files directly?

ProDOS 16 anyway, I'm not sure about ProDOS 8. I use my Apple IIgs to transfer files to my Mac all the time (and vice versa).

 

Tempest

[tjb]

I also really like the Laser 128 clone. I got one mainly because it was compatible with this device:

CFFA For Apple II

 

The CFFA 3000 (new version they are working on) looks really nice...

 

He said he has made over 1000 of them (the original CFFA)!!!!!

 

That's one SERIOUS hobby/side biz!!!

No idea what his overhead is, but, that's over/around $100,000 changing hands!!!

 

desiv

 

The guy is super-nice. I purchased one and like a dumba** installed it incorrectly and it basically fried the thing. I exchanged emails with him and ended up calling him. He talked me through trying various things to conclude that the board was indeed bad. He ended up sending me another board at no cost even though I told him it was because of my ignorance the thing was defective! It was cool talking to him in the wee hours of the morning while he had me plug in hex values using the monitor.

 

tjb

[Hatta]

Aren't Macs supposed to be able to read/write ProDOS files directly?

ProDOS 16 anyway, I'm not sure about ProDOS 8. I use my Apple IIgs to transfer files to my Mac all the time (and vice versa).

 

Tempest

 

Hey, I did not know that! That will come in handy if I find something that won't ZMODEM properly. Resource forks are a bitch.

[zylon]

Mine was a IIe with monochrome monitor and 2 5.25 floppy drives. It was also my first programming experience. plots, hplots, lin, vlin, hlin...

Those were the days.

[The Usotsuki]

Macs of the OS7 era, possibly 8 too, could read and write 3.5" 800K ProDOS disks, yes. But the drives for the Apple ][ line were rare apart from the GS version.

[+remowilliams]

Update on the CFFA3000. Be sure to register your interest if you intend on getting one!

 

 

Update Dec 9, 2010:

 

The CFFA project is still alive and well. It has been quite awhile since I have updated my web site. Sorry to keep everyone in the dark. There has been a lot of interest, and the delays have not been for lack of interest in the project, but more for personal reasons. I am loath to make a firm estimate about when this will be done, so I won't. I do know that we are at least another 3 months away.

Here is a brief summary of the progress on the CFFA3000 and an update on the price:

 

1) The CFFA3000 will cost US$149.95.

This is more than I wanted, but I didn't have a choice. Compared to the previous CFFA, the CFFA3000 has more features, over twice as many parts, and a CPLD 9 times larger. Not to mention the costs for PCBS and assembly rising.

 

2) The CFFA3000 can now read/write and boot 140K DSK, NIB and 2MG files. It handles both ProDOS order (PO) and DOS order (DO) images, and of course very large SmartPort images (up to 32MB for ProDOS, and even larger under GS/OS).

 

3) Although the CFFA3000 only uses one slot, it will require two empty slots to enable both SmartPort (Hard Drive) and floppy emulation. A typical setup might be the CFFA3000 in slot 7, and slot 6 left empty for the CFFA3000 disk emulation to map into. You can configure the CFFA3000 to function as a standard mass storage interface, or as a Floppy controller or both. When both are selected, the slot with CFFA3000 plugged in is the hard drive, and another available slot is the floppy controller.

 

4) Five prototype #2 boards were made and the third prototype PCB is nearly ready to be produced. I am hoping that this prototype will be the final production version.

 

5) The CPLD bootloader is finished so customers may download logic updates to fix future problems found in the CPLD logic.

 

6) Work has started on the microcontroller's bootloader, and should be finished soon. The bootloader's job is to apply updates to the firmware running on the AVR microcontroller.

 

7) Good progress has been made on the boot menus and file selection user interface. There are several ways to enter the CFFA3000 menu, including pressing 'M' at boot time, or (on the Apple IIgs) using the Classic Desk Accessory menu by pressing Apple-Control-Esc.

 

8 ) A number of images have booted and run, including ProDOS 2.0.3, DOS 3.3, UCSD Pascal, CP/M 2.23, Contiki, and Merlin-8 2.47, and RobotWar. These tests are not very exhaustive yet, but so far have not shown any problems (that we couldn't fix).

 

9) The AVR microcontroller part we are using for the CFFA3000 is on allocation (in short supply) so I have already ordered and received 200 units just in case they are hard to get later.

 

LINK