Tell me again why emulators suck?

[flashjazzcat]

It adjusts in real time, when happy just close the box, changes are retained..

 

Yours seems to be not adjusting as you move the sliders, can't say why but I always go for the reset of the registry values (I don't use a separate cfg)

Didn't realize it was supposed to update in realtime - thanks. Turning off VBXE emulation fixed it (although surely it should work with VBXE turned on?).

[Mclaneinc]

Slight update to colour adjusting, the screen cannot be in pause mode to see the updated colours, a slight pain if you are trying to match in game sprite colours

[flashjazzcat]

Another update: when you next turn on VBXE emulation, the palette changes you made when it was turned off persist.

[atariksi]

 

That's just your opinion based on what you use your Atari for. I actually don't care about the nostalgia nor loading noises. Peripherals have been updated so you shouldn't really get failing peripherals nor heavy items nor power supply issues. Just plug in a flash cart or one of those disk drive simulators and that solves the peripheral problem unless you have a copyprotected disk then you would need the real physical 1050 or equivalent. Emulators are only accurate to frame times (not just Atari emulators) not to real Ataris (5.58ns or whatever it is for PAL) so I don't think hardware testing can even be done for most of the hardware. The same ports don't even exist on an emulator (because they don't exist on modern PCs). And even if you mimic them using USB, you can't test the hardware down to cycle times only approximately at frame time accuracy.

 

About maintenance, you maintain PCs as well; it's just that PC parts are more common and cheaper so easily available.

 

Buts that's exactly what I said re the use of them, I also said along the lines of "unless you are doing precise hardware dev" which is true, of course the emulator won't be as perfectly precise but for software testing it's normally aok ie a game or most utils or maybe demos.

 

As for maintenance, that was also my point, its just simply easier (unless you have spares) to maintain a pc also you are not dealing with 25yr tech which will start sooner or later to fail.

 

For anyone just looking to have casual gaming fun or use a major lump of the software out then emulators are fine in my opinion.

 

You wrote: "unless you are doing some very machine dependent hardware dev then an emulator is even perfect for that."

 

And that's still not a correct answer. Even if you program (software only), you should still have the real hardware. Emulation is based mostly on trial and error that's why they keep updating. You can never say "I got it down 100%". Putting aside bug fixes, new things sometimes come up on real machines that would never come up on the emulation since emulation itself is based on what is already known.

 

PC has other maintenance issues although failing hardware is lesser likely-- other tasks/viruses/spyware interfering.

[+wood_jl]

Come in guys, most of us are purists to certain degrees (most to the highest level) so nothing will replace the real thing but that was not the question asked originally. As much as I stick up for Altirra I also would love to have my originals back but I have to be realistic about the simple reason I no longer have them in the first place...

 

LIFE...

 

It was fine when my wife and I were still working and we were spending holidays in the USA 3 times a year and had a big house, but life has a habit of slapping you right back in the face. The last time I saw my huge lump of Atari 8bit and C64 hardware was when it was in storage at my mothers, sadly she died in her care home and by then all the cash and big house had gone, I had no where to put it and it ended up in a skip.

 

After that my daughter was born so money is more tight and I can't imagine where I could put the stuff now

 

So would I have my gear back, yes, but can I live without it, also yes...You have to see what the other needs are as well.....

 

So, anyone near London got a complete set for free

 

If space and money are considerations, I see no reason why an 800XL and SIO2PC cable could NOT fit in one's space and budget. As "MetalGuy66" pointed out in another thread, if you had those two things, and never ever bought anything else, you could literally stay busy for years. How much space would one 800XL take up? You already have more than one suitable display screen in the house.

 

When I got bitten by the Atari bug again in 2007, I started back with 130XE and SIO2PC cable. I've found I love this stuff so much I've accumulated quite a pile since then. But if my house burns down, I'd have another XL/XE and an SIO2PC cable on the way rather quickly, I'm afraid.

Edited October 23, 2010 by wood_jl

[carmel_andrews]

Come in guys, most of us are purists to certain degrees (most to the highest level) so nothing will replace the real thing but that was not the question asked originally. As much as I stick up for Altirra I also would love to have my originals back but I have to be realistic about the simple reason I no longer have them in the first place...

 

LIFE...

 

It was fine when my wife and I were still working and we were spending holidays in the USA 3 times a year and had a big house, but life has a habit of slapping you right back in the face. The last time I saw my huge lump of Atari 8bit and C64 hardware was when it was in storage at my mothers, sadly she died in her care home and by then all the cash and big house had gone, I had no where to put it and it ended up in a skip.

 

After that my daughter was born so money is more tight and I can't imagine where I could put the stuff now

 

So would I have my gear back, yes, but can I live without it, also yes...You have to see what the other needs are as well.....

 

So, anyone near London got a complete set for free

 

If space and money are considerations, I see no reason why an 800XL and SIO2PC cable could NOT fit in one's space and budget. As "MetalGuy66" pointed out in another thread, if you had those two things, and never ever bought anything else, you could literally stay busy for years. How much space would one 800XL take up? You already have more than one suitable display screen in the house.

 

When I got bitten by the Atari bug again in 2007, I started back with 130XE and SIO2PC cable. I've found I love this stuff so much I've accumulated quite a pile since then. But if my house burns down, I'd have another XL/XE and an SIO2PC cable on the way rather quickly, I'm afraid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, at least we now know who's nicked (or got the world's supply of) all sio2pc cables

Edited October 24, 2010 by carmel_andrews

[sloopy]

dirt cheap 800XL's are just looking for places to live... and even usb sio2pc cables can be had for $20, or $25 for some guy named sloopy if you want something ready made...

 

 

sloopy.

[oracle_jedi]

I've owned a 400, an 800, two 800XLs and two 1200XLs plus assorted 810 and 1050 drives. For the most part I've had rock solid reliability.

 

Certainly my Atari hardware has done better than most of my PC era kit, which typically runs four years before starting to exhibit some sort of hardware failure, so my guess you just got unlucky. I've not even had the typical 1200 keyboard issues unless you count the missing 8 and 9 keys from one used machine that came to me broken.

 

As for emulators. Yes they rock. With a click of your mouse you can test a given configuration, copy files at super-warp speed or try hardware options you might not have. Newer emulators emulate the screens more faithfully than ever before giving artifacting as well as other things like timing lines and moire effects that you used to get on old CRT based TVs.

 

But using an Atari isn't just about the 320x192 256-colour display from ANTIC and GTIA, nor the four channel monaural sound from POKEY. There is something tactile about pressing the real keys of a real 1200, touching the plastic of a real CX40, the click of the power switch or the glow of the red LEDs. The abrupt click from the 400's cartridge door lifting or the feel of solid tank-like quality from closing the drive door of an 810. Nothing brings back Christmas 1984 like sliding the 800XL out of the styrofoam clam shell box inserts.

 

Those machines have a smell, they have a feel, an aura, hell they have a soul!

 

You just can't emulate that.

[sloopy]

 

 

Those machines have a smell, they have a feel, an aura, hell they have a soul!

 

You just can't emulate that.

 

The Soul of an Old Machine...

(with apologies to Tracy Kidder ;')

 

sloopy.

[Syfo-Dyas]

Kinky!

[potatohead]

I like the real hardware because the little things matter to me. Sounds, colors, pixels, etc... I also like it because it's kind of fun maintaining it, or modifying it. Finally, my life experience is showing off a emulation doesn't pack the same punch the real stuff does.

 

Once I brought the old 6 switcher into the office. I work with some people who totally know what that is, and a bunch that don't. That machine got played pretty hard. (I placed it with some paddle games, for the novelty of it) One of the carts was my copy of the hombrew "Medieval Mayhem". When the people were told I bought that new, and that there was a scene, they had good reactions, including: "Can you set me up?" (which I did)

 

I've done similar things with emulations, and for the most part, unless one goes through a lot of trouble to output to a TV, it's just some old looking pixels on a screen.

 

Now, for development / hacking / reviewing, etc... emulators are a godsend. I think they've done the hobby some real good, and I like everything about that.

 

At the end of the day though, having some of the real stuff around is all good, and I consider the emulator my backup, or "what if?" platform.

 

If all the real hardware suddenly vanished, or became so exotic, or rare that it was not possible for ordinary people to just buy in and start the hobby, I would be gone, off doing something else.

[ACML]

I started this thread in a moment of despair and frustration trying to fix a 28-year-old 1200XL keyboard. I've got all the QWERTY keys working; just not the F1 and F2 plus OPTION and SELECT are "iffy". I got involved with Atari in 1974 (PONG), VCS (1977), 400 (1981), 800 (1983) and 1200XL/800XL (198?). I've always been a hacker staring with a 32K upgrade and new keyboard on my 400 in 1982. I have done many mods on several 800 and 1200 XLs. I once added multi-color LEDs as ramdisk busy lights on machines I upgraded to 256K. Now I'm 46, too busy, two kids and too many other things competing for my time. I can honestly say that my exposure to Atari computers probably altered my path in life. I am an aerospace engineer and have flight tested F-16's, F-22 Raptors, worked for NASA (Space Shuttle Main Engine), F-35 JSF and now U. S. Army (AH-64 Apache). I owe this in some part maybe a large part to my days tinkering with my Atari home computers. The emulators of recent (Atari800Win+ and Altirra) are responsible for my renewed interest here. While I'm looking at email or whatever, in seconds I can fire up Missile Command and do something mindless for a few minutes. Click the close button and back to whatever I thought was more important. That's a pretty cool capability in this day and age. I am not a purist, because I actually enjoy the emulation more than real hardware. The graphics are sharper; file management is orders of magnitude better than dealing with 5.25" floppies. Heck, the emulator even mimics artifacting. My first game Mission Moscow, circa 1983, used redefined character sets and artifacting for color. I really wanted a 1200XL for nostalgic reasons, but even if it worked perfectly, I'd only fire it up once in a blue moon. It's just too much hassle hauling out equipment, figuring out what TV to interrupt and where to put it all. Emulators make the decision easy. It allows me to play more often. If I had to choose, and we don't, I have to go with the emulator. But hey, that's just me.

[Divya16]

I started this thread in a moment of despair and frustration trying to fix a 28-year-old 1200XL keyboard.

 

I actually agree with Oracle_jedi, the Ataris 400/800 don't usually go bad. My Atari 800 hasn't been maintained and it's working fine still although some keys stopped working because I left it neglected in the garage for many years. But I recently pulled out a PC keyboard from the garage and it also had same issues of some keys not working.

 

The graphics are sharper; file management is orders of magnitude better than dealing with 5.25" floppies. Heck, the emulator even mimics artifacting. My first game Mission Moscow, circa 1983, used redefined character sets and artifacting for color.

 

Graphics being sharper is supposed to be a good thing if the original computer was targetted for RGB type monitors, but the smoother/circular pixels of TVs seems to give a less blockier appearance to the low-resolution imagery of most games.

 

I really wanted a 1200XL for nostalgic reasons, but even if it worked perfectly, I'd only fire it up once in a blue moon. It's just too much hassle hauling out equipment, figuring out what TV to interrupt and where to put it all. Emulators make the decision easy. It allows me to play more often. If I had to choose, and we don't, I have to go with the emulator. But hey, that's just me.

 

I use an emulator for certain things like getting screen-shots and stuff but keep the Atari hooked up via video switch box to the same TV as my VCR/DVD player. That way I don't have to keep wiring it up everytime I use it. Last I saw those switch boxes with 5-way a/v connectors were going for $1 on Ebay and don't use any power supply either.

[Mclaneinc]

Guys guys, I'm not trying to start a fight (anyway, I'd take the lot of you without losing sweat ) I truly agree with all that's being said, I'm with oracle_jedi 100% (although I wonder how 'close' to his atari he is ) I love the old hardware and I miss it like hell, of course emulators can't replace the real thing for perfectness and feel BUT if you end up in a situation like me then I'll take Altirra every time and be bloody grateful, it gives me a damn good window into all that's 130XE etc etc.

 

And yes, I must admit I didn't give thought to an XL with SIO lead, sadly I only have one TV and two PC monitors so I'd be unpopular with the wife taking over the front room. And before you say well TV's are dead cheap etc etc, I suffer from a serious spinal issue (I have a compressed spinal cord and a form of arthritis eating into the spine) plus some other issues that make me unfit for work so just keeping the net running is an expense that I'd call a luxury so buying hardware would be taking the mickey out of my wife and daughters needs.

 

It was bloody painful watching my hardware collection go in a bin, I had no choice at the time, trust me if I could magically go back and grab it I would, I'd make space even in our cramped flat, I'm not insane I love the real thing and miss it hugely.

[carmel_andrews]

 

As for McLaneinc... I've not come across one retro shop (in the last 2 years) that now supports atari/commodore gear (most/all of them in c.london are only interested in Japanese consoles like sega/ninty/sony/NEC/SNK etc etc) I dunno if retro x in shepherd's bush is still going (they were pretty good with atari/commodore stuff from what i remember) and computer and games exchange in notting hill is no more (from what one of their shop attendents told me that worked in one of their other stores/shops)

 

Not been to shepherds bush in yonks, will give it a look up, there was also that other retro place sort of Harrow way but not in Harrorw, one of our Maplin shops was near but he wanted so much cash for the consoles. What annoys me is that I chatted to the guy runs a PC shop just off Marlow high st and he had plenty of old hardware in storage, when I said that some of the a8bit newsgroup would be interested he just said it was too much work.

 

Good to see an acute business mind at work!

 

 

 

 

 

Could have just given it to you mclaneinc (i.e the a8 gear that was sitting about gathering dust) if you had a car (just take it off their hands)

[Mclaneinc]

No car sadly now but trust me, he wanted money in heaps but was simply too lazy to check what he had...

 

Total idiot...

Edited October 24, 2010 by Mclaneinc

[+wood_jl]

The emulators of recent (Atari800Win+ and Altirra) are responsible for my renewed interest here. While I'm looking at email or whatever, in seconds I can fire up Missile Command and do something mindless for a few minutes. Click the close button and back to whatever I thought was more important. That's a pretty cool capability in this day and age. I am not a purist, because I actually enjoy the emulation more than real hardware. The graphics are sharper; file management is orders of magnitude better than dealing with 5.25" floppies. Heck, the emulator even mimics artifacting. My first game Mission Moscow, circa 1983, used redefined character sets and artifacting for color. I really wanted a 1200XL for nostalgic reasons, but even if it worked perfectly, I'd only fire it up once in a blue moon. It's just too much hassle hauling out equipment, figuring out what TV to interrupt and where to put it all. Emulators make the decision easy. It allows me to play more often. If I had to choose, and we don't, I have to go with the emulator. But hey, that's just me.

 

Despite the fact that I'm happy as a pig in sh*t when I'm surrounded by "real" Ataris, I have to agree with the valid points made here.

 

Should you ever find the time, a $5 13" thrift store TV and an SIO2PC cable would mean never robbing another TV or fumbling with 5.25" disks. Still, there's nothing easier than the emulator.

[Keatah]

Emulators of today don't suck, they've improved significantly in the past 5 years.

 

Ohh sure, they were pretty rough in the early days of Windows 3.1, Microsoft Arcade, Activision Action Packs, DASArcade, Sparcade, Digital Eclipse' single per-game emulator for Williams' Classics and Mike Cuddy's Gyruss sound emulator. Some of which are pre-mame by several years.

 

But eventually emulators will be the only (and preferred) method by which to experience the classics.

If I want to experience C64 or Atari 400/800 or VCS, I would need to go on ebay and track down an original console. Hardware that is likely to need repairs and plenty of PM to make it anywhere near reliable. Then I'd need to build a cartridge library or disk library. Get good controllers, proper power adapter that is operating in specification, RF cable, serial cable, and a working 1541 or 810 drive.. And even worse a hot and heavy CRT which will need tuning and adjusting and perhaps capacitor replacement.. This endeavor could easily be a 6-month project! ..and is more than most people are willing to put up with.

 

Emulation does away with all that tedium in an elegant & efficient manner.

[Keatah]

It's like a '57 Chevy. If you just went down and bought one at Wal-Mart, all done perfect with a DOHC, computer-controlled engine, surround sound stereo, and a BMW suspension, how cool could that be? Dynamic Stability Control in a 50 year-old car?

 

Bob

 

The convenience of buying a classic car full of high-tech at Walmart? That'd be too cool for school!

[Keatah]

But the PC's break regularly, just think of all the problems and time spent maintaining the PC

 

Just think of the reliability and security of a digital collection on the PC. You'll never lose your emulators or roms & images. They'll always be there even in face of catastrophic loss like theft or acts of mother nature.

[ZylonBane]

Someone please teach Keatah how to use the MultiQuote button. Or in this case, the MultiNecro button.

[Keatah]

Are there any instructions posted?

[ZylonBane]

Most people are smart enough to figure it out on their own.

[flashjazzcat]

[tschak909]

I do not understand the vitriol against Emulation. At all. The base feelings of "emulation having no soul" are exactly the same feelings that strengthen the death grip of religion on humanity.

 

I can speak on these subjects because I've done both analog and digital simulation. Quite simply, unlike analogue simulation where you are trying to digitally simulate, for example, the asymptotic electrical characteristics of capacitors, resistors, and linear ICs to approximate a Moog ladder filter, there is a real possibility of being able to simulate the source circuit 100% correctly! AND IT'S NOT A REMOTE ONE!

 

Emulators of all shapes and sizes have been with us, for almost as long as digital computers have been with us. The first one I was aware of, was a simulation of the FX-1 computer (an experimental computer at MIT using magnetic circuitry), running on the TX-0, or the later simulations of the LINC running on the TX-2. IBM ran with the concept of Virtual Machines in the System 370, so that software written for the System 360 would run correctly, and to this day, ANYTHING written for the very first System 360 mainframe released in 1964, CAN RUN ON THE LATEST z900 MAINFRAME TODAY! THAT IS PRESERVATION!

 

And that is ultimately my point. Guys, you have to stop sucking your thumbs, and holding onto your security blankets. and make peace with the simple fact that the hardware we love so much will not survive the ravages of time. It just won't. Full stop. and it is our responsibility to ensure that our progeny can reach back into the past to experience and understand, should they have the inclination to do so. This is why it is critical to not only preserve the software, as much as we can, but to completely, and accurately model the target machine hardware to 100% accuracy. This is not impossible, in any circumstance. Given the rising speed of computing hardware, we are reaching the point where literally a gate by gate modelling of N-channel semiconductor process can be done at full speed within a few short years. There is no excuse other than manpower.

 

Did I leave programmable logic out of this equation? Simply, programmable logic solutions (a la FPGA) are actually a wonderful example of what I mentioned above. They prove this point to the extreme, as the logic modelling accuracy increases, the FPGAs show that the emulations become less and less discernible from the original source hardware. What can be done on the FPGAs of today, can be done on the general purpose microprocessors of tomorrow, for cheaper, and with considerable increases in flexibility (the introduction of formidable debugging facilities in emulators are the best examples of this.).

 

So what should we do? HELP THE EMULATOR AUTHORS AT EVERY TURN. Find programs that break, contribute code if you can. Decap physical hardware chips so they can be photographed (and subsequently audited at the gate level to truly understand low-level behavior), and continue to preserve every piece of software that you can find.

 

These are the historical artifacts of the 20th and 21st century. The difference is, unlike artifacts of previous generations, these can be used, deconstructed, reconstructed, and therefore understood at a far more intimate level, by many, than any artifacts that have come before. The vast majority of physical hardware, will not survive. It simply wasn't designed to. It's not made of stone, it's made of plastic; of silicon, and given that virtually NO computing hardware is 100 years old, yet (do not nitpick me on this, trying to make a fucking point!), we do not understand the long term effects of what will happen to this hardware. Will the passivation layers on these valuable pieces of silicon last thousands of years? I don't think so.

 

My thoughts, for everyone's consideration,

-Thom