contemporary game programmer seeks a8 advice

[bmcnett]

hiya, i program contemporary games for a living, but i dream of a8 in my spare time.

 

two ideas have been percolating in my mind lately, but i doubt they are new ideas - maybe some wise atarians can set me straight.

 

1. i've been thinking of making a wolfenstein-like game for a8 where the TV is turned sideways, and vertical slices of wall are selected via HSCROLL and DLI, since scanlines go vertical when the TV is sideways. i haven't seen this before - has it been done? i figure 60hz would be easy as long as there aren't any textures.

 

2. if i set the playfield narrow, is it feasible to make a 60hz or 30hz engine that double-buffers the playfield, PMG and DLI, and spends most of the 6502's time generating the offscreen PMG/DLI to multiplex a few dozen 1-color sprites? if i can write such an engine, then i can write NES-style games for it that have lots of sprites without too much fiddly-daddly about which sprite is which PMG.

[Creature XL]

2. if i set the playfield narrow, is it feasible to make a 60hz or 30hz engine that double-buffers the playfield, PMG and DLI, and spends most of the 6502's time generating the offscreen PMG/DLI to multiplex a few dozen 1-color sprites? if i can write such an engine, then i can write NES-style games for it that have lots of sprites without too much fiddly-daddly about which sprite is which PMG.

 

A few dozens? yeah go for it and make the code open source

I have just finished my 4-color-soft-sprite routs for a 32-byte screen. Its char-based (ANTIC 4) and uses double buffering.

In one (50Hz) frame i manage 6 8x16 sprites with full masking. The routs aren't fully optimized (but are already pretty tight) and are still general-purpose, but even when using special cases I would say a maximum of 8 is possible. I have a rather complex game logic in mind, so I reserve some scan lines to be safe

 

In a 25/30 Hz engine you can get obviously 12-16 but thats a tiny "few" dozen

 

All the above is meant as a motivation to proof me wrong, nothing else.

Its cool to have a professional games developer here. I am coding my first game (finally) and i start to realise that coding the sprite-engine is the smallest part of it all

Edited January 5, 2011 by Creature XL

[GroovyBee]

1. i've been thinking of making a wolfenstein-like game for a8 where the TV is turned sideways, and vertical slices of wall are selected via HSCROLL and DLI, since scanlines go vertical when the TV is sideways. i haven't seen this before - has it been done? i figure 60hz would be easy as long as there aren't any textures.

 

No need to turn the TV on its side :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/174274-project-m-20/

 

if i can write such an engine, then i can write NES-style games for it that have lots of sprites without too much fiddly-daddly about which sprite is which PMG.

 

The Atari 7800 console is an ideal platform for displaying dozens of multicolour sprites on screen simultaneously should you desire to write NES like games for it instead.

[bmcnett]

No need to turn the TV on its side :-

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/174274-project-m-20/

 

Yep I saw the videos, and the engine is a technical wonder. Since I don't think I can compete with such genius (I've never even written ASM for A8 before) I aim for the simpler goal of doing something like BallBlazer with a sideways TV!

 

The Atari 7800 console is an ideal platform for displaying dozens of multicolour sprites on screen simultaneously should you desire to write NES like games for it instead.

 

Sounds reasonable - but all my nostalgia neurons are already locked on A8. I'm not really interested in NES per se (I could write for NES if I were) but I don't remember a lot of A8 games that sacrificed colors in the name of more sprites etc. so it's a little corner I'm interested in exploring?

[GroovyBee]

Yep I saw the videos, and the engine is a technical wonder. Since I don't think I can compete with such genius (I've never even written ASM for A8 before) I aim for the simpler goal of doing something like BallBlazer with a sideways TV!

 

Merlin's Walls is a raycaster style game on the 2600 that requires you to turn the TV on its side :-

 

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-merlin-s-walls_14946.html

 

There is an interview with its developers here :-

 

http://www.gooddealgames.com/interviews/int_Bacher.html

 

Sounds reasonable - but all my nostalgia neurons are already locked on A8. I'm not really interested in NES per se (I could write for NES if I were) but I don't remember a lot of A8 games that sacrificed colors in the name of more sprites etc. so it's a little corner I'm interested in exploring?

 

No probs. It was just a thought. Its entirely up to you want platform(s) you spend your hobby time on .

[carmel_andrews]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

[Bryan]

1. i've been thinking of making a wolfenstein-like game for a8 where the TV is turned sideways, and vertical slices of wall are selected via HSCROLL and DLI, since scanlines go vertical when the TV is sideways. i haven't seen this before - has it been done? i figure 60hz would be easy as long as there aren't any textures.

Ya know, you've totally got me thinking...

 

If you didn't rotate the TV, but rather used the display list to do sideways ray-casting, you could have a 3-D sculptured floor and ceiling in a Space Harrier-type 1st person environment.

[UNIXcoffee928]

1. i've been thinking of making a wolfenstein-like game for a8 where the TV is turned sideways, and vertical slices of wall are selected via HSCROLL and DLI, since scanlines go vertical when the TV is sideways. i haven't seen this before - has it been done? i figure 60hz would be easy as long as there aren't any textures.

Ya know, you've totally got me thinking...

 

If you didn't rotate the TV, but rather used the display list to do sideways ray-casting, you could have a 3-D sculptured floor and ceiling in a Space Harrier-type 1st person environment.

 

He had gotten me thinking, too... I was thinking that it would be a great idea to have the Emulator simulate the vertical orientation of a "sideways screen"... it may be a very easy tweak. Having the option to switch to a vertical orientation would be a very cool feature, especially for Flashjazzcat's GUI project. The original  Xerox Alto systems (first modern GUI systems) had a vertical screen orientation, and it suited the GUI quite nicely, as seen here, and here. 

[bmcnett]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

[José Pereira]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

 

 

Hi, nice to ear a new one interested in doing Games for A8.

I was reading this of the T.V. turning and many Games could get into my Mind... but for a start it could be a good start with a Flippers type.

I don't remember any in special but probably a great and colourfull would be possible...

 

What do you say?

José Pereira.

[ANTIQ]

sprites

[bmcnett]

sprites

 

hey that's exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

[Divya16]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

 

He was asking for some real programming that you have done. I think anyone can write for modern consoles using those bloated APIs. Have you written some DLI or IRQ code in assembly or write a 200+ screen game like Hero that fits into 16K cartridge? That may give you some hope that you can program for Ataris.

 

I have also shipped games for a lot more systems using Ebay; I haven't coded for them. Using your approach-- not familiar with your lingo.

[PeteD]

lol Looks like the bad attitude from joystick thread is spilling over...

[+Stephen]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

 

He was asking for some real programming that you have done. I think anyone can write for modern consoles using those bloated APIs. Have you written some DLI or IRQ code in assembly or write a 200+ screen game like Hero that fits into 16K cartridge? That may give you some hope that you can program for Ataris.

 

I have also shipped games for a lot more systems using Ebay; I haven't coded for them. Using your approach-- not familiar with your lingo.

Don't come over and start flaming people in every thread or you and your doppleganger will both be banned from here. Some of us have been here for nearly a decade and don't need your shit in every thread. Go sit in the corner and think about why your other thread got locked.

[+Stephen]

lol Looks like the bad attitude from joystick thread is spilling over...

Yeah - crybaby got his ass handed to him, not it's time to "throw the toys out of the pram".

[carmel_andrews]

sprites

 

hey that's exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

please ignore what divya 16 said...., as I was genuinely interested in what systems/platforms (etc) you code on, and how games programming/coding differs from systems/platform to system/platform.....Are you planning on porting (or converting to using the old school term) to the A8 some of your creations on the other platforms/formats you code on....or do you think those games don't suit the A8 in the same way they suit the platform/format you coded them for

[sack-c0s]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

 

He was asking for some real programming that you have done. I think anyone can write for modern consoles using those bloated APIs. Have you written some DLI or IRQ code in assembly or write a 200+ screen game like Hero that fits into 16K cartridge? That may give you some hope that you can program for Ataris.

 

I have also shipped games for a lot more systems using Ebay; I haven't coded for them. Using your approach-- not familiar with your lingo.

 

gameboy is pretty much like coding any 8-bit - no APIs, just a start address for your code, a memory map, some registers to write to and that's it. It's like coding for a slightly nicer C64 but with a z80 in it. There's no API there to fall back on which, of course as you've actually done some coding or basic research, you already know.

 

can we ban this idiot of a sockpuppet account yet? yet again someone wants to make an honest go of coding something for the A8 and people are just tearing into them.

Edited January 10, 2011 by sack-c0s

[bmcnett]

gameboy is pretty much like coding any 8-bit...

 

Actually A8 looks like a really sweet platform compared to GB. GB had only four shades of gray at 160x160, 8KB of RAM, no persistent storage, and no pixel-addressable display modes. There's no OS or IO controller, so for peripherals like printer and infrared, you need cycle-accurate Z80 code to match the IO port frequencies!

 

Since we're talking about making games, and there seems to be some confusion about the terminology of making games (?) I'll explain just in case somebody misunderstood: To "ship" a game means to have worked on the game until it's done, and then for the game to be assigned a SKU and sold at a game retailer. It's possible to work in the games industry for years, and due to circumstances never ship a game.

Edited January 10, 2011 by bmcnett

[bmcnett]

please ignore what divya 16 said...., as I was genuinely interested in what systems/platforms (etc) you code on, and how games programming/coding differs from systems/platform to system/platform.....Are you planning on porting (or converting to using the old school term) to the A8 some of your creations on the other platforms/formats you code on....or do you think those games don't suit the A8 in the same way they suit the platform/format you coded them for

 

Thanks for asking - I don't plan on porting anything I did professionally to A8, because the only stuff that would fit are licensed kiddie games for Game Boy, and even then only with a lot of work, because GB has a lot of 4-color hardware sprites. I guess I'll try to totally rewrite some of my old A8 BASIC games for ASM, now that I understand ASM a little better. What a vanity project!

 

As for how is games programming different from platform to platform, as a practical matter it's largely the same for all platforms in a given generation. When I worked on PS2/GC/XB my company intentionally ignored any feature that made a platform different, because by definition that wouldn't port to the other platforms. PS3's SPU processor is an exception - coding for it feels very old school to me. It has a RAM smaller than some modded A8 machines (!), no cache, and is very hackable and "deterministic" in that you can sit down with a pencil and figure out how fast your code will be with great confidence.

[Divya16]

bmcnett....Just OOI, what non Atari platforms do you code for (since you mention being a games programmer)

 

so far, i've shipped games for these platforms:

 

game boy

game boy color

game boy advance

playstation 2

xbox

game cube

playstation 3

xbox 360

 

He was asking for some real programming that you have done. I think anyone can write for modern consoles using those bloated APIs. Have you written some DLI or IRQ code in assembly or write a 200+ screen game like Hero that fits into 16K cartridge? That may give you some hope that you can program for Ataris.

 

I have also shipped games for a lot more systems using Ebay; I haven't coded for them. Using your approach-- not familiar with your lingo.

 

gameboy is pretty much like coding any 8-bit - no APIs, just a start address for your code, a memory map, some registers to write to and that's it. It's like coding for a slightly nicer C64 but with a z80 in it. There's no API there to fall back on which, of course as you've actually done some coding or basic research, you already know.

Where I worked for some time, they used APIs for all those systems and more. Here's one link I just saw on APIs for gameboy:

 

http://jason-raspison.com/gba.htm

 

can we ban this idiot of a sockpuppet account yet? yet again someone wants to make an honest go of coding something for the A8 and people are just tearing into them.

 

Now that was uncalled for. My comment was perfectly on-topic and true and written BEFORE "other" thread was locked. No reason to do personal attacks and concoct fictional theories meant at character assassination like some others have done in this thread even if my post were inaccurate. My comments are not tearing into anyone. A8 game coding requires more coding skills than API-based coding. I can also surmise that you are an idiotic C64 fanboy and who wants to tear into and spew out your venom on Atari users like you have done previously.

[+therealbountybob]

Just wanted to say welcome bmcnett and to wish you luck with your Atari projects

 

maybe yourself or someone can take jose up on / or utilise his skills regarding graphics / screen design at some point in 2011

 

[bmcnett]

Where I worked for some time, they used APIs for all those systems and more. Here's one link I just saw on APIs for gameboy:

 

Really? Where did you work on games for both Game Boy and Playstation 3? That's quite a long career you had making games. Can you tell us the name of a game you shipped?

 

My Game Boy publisher (Acclaim) never shipped a GB or GBC game that called an API... because Nintendo never provided an API for those platforms, which also have no OS and are more primitive than A8 in many ways. PS3's SPU has (almost) no API either. In practice its "API calls" are skinny wrappers on hardware DMA registers.

[+Stephen]

Now that was uncalled for. My comment was perfectly on-topic and true and written BEFORE "other" thread was locked. No reason to do personal attacks and concoct fictional theories meant at character assassination like some others have done in this thread even if my post were inaccurate. My comments are not tearing into anyone. A8 game coding requires more coding skills than API-based coding. I can also surmise that you are an idiotic C64 fanboy and who wants to tear into and spew out your venom on Atari users like you have done previously.

The only one in this topic spewing venom is you. This post and the previous one have been reported to the moderators. Stop shitting on legitimate threads here.

[Bryan]

Oh come on, everyone knows to make a PS3 game all you have to do is pick a genre and click "Create". It's not real programming.

 

Now, if you want real programming, I took a string of those programmable Christmas lights and hacked the controller to display 60fps Quake if I went outside at night and spun the string over my head fast enough. Of course, there were no development tools so I had to decap the chip and modify the ROM section by carefully manipulating the metal layers.

 

Anyway, in the end I wrote a bloated API for it so if you want a new game on a twirling string of lights, you can just pick a genre and click "Create".