Wich one of these two Prince of Persia you prefer?

[emkay]

The best solution for the A8 is, as always, to use gr. 7.

Then add PMs for eye candys , and use the full animations for a nice screen. And, digis, ofcourse.

That's what the A8 is made for (besides ego view games)....

[José Pereira]

The scene in Karateka always shows 4 colours. There seem to exist one or two DLIs.

Screensize is max 182 lines . No complex colour register filter or PM overlay is used.

 

But Karateka on c64 uses ColourMap CharMode and it seem directly ported from apple (or A8, or was A8 from C64, or the two at the same time from Apple, who cares?) and it is possible in Char-Mode and soft sprites:

Here you can see that it's Char-Mode:

-> Common 3colours: White, Light Brown and Gray

-> C64 ColourMap: Black and Blue

 

If they get this on C64 1Mhz. and soft sprites why it wouldn't be possible with 1Mhz. more have the PMs. overlays in Prince of Persia?

And there is scrolling Emkay, even when you are fighting.

Take scrolls off and those 8bytes more of ANTIC scrolling gets you cycles for the PMs...

 

C64 with 1Mhz/scrolling and large soft Sprites is the proff that 2Mhz. A8 without scrolling can handle PoP!

[PeteD]

afaik they're both as close to direct ports from the Apple version as is possible. This is definately true for the C64 one and I'm pretty sure the A8 is the same (I did check but it's been a long time ago).. Bitmap mode, no hardware anything (ie no hardware scrolling or sprites). So that means software scroll (ie rotating through the bitmap), software sprites. This is why it's so incredibly slow.

 

So for PoP you've got a static char screen taking up no CPU (for scrolling), software+pmg sprites which while slow in themselves, drawing them is the bulk of what the games CPU is taken up on. They don't need to run 50fps, none of the versions do so.

Edited October 10, 2011 by PeteD

[emkay]

Here you can see that it's Char-Mode:

-> Common 3colours: White, Light Brown and Gray

-> C64 ColourMap: Black and Blue

 

Blue is the same colour as grey. There is just some DLI switch . You see it at the start of the level when the protagonist starts at the cliff. The grey is blue, and after the the blue range is scrolling outside the screen, the blue gets grey.

[José Pereira]

-> Yie Another Kunf Fu (remake) uses ANTIC4 Char-Mode with the same size as the previous one but with more chars needed on the vertical shifting and it works really fast.

 

 

Yie Ar Kung Fu doesn't do background handling. The enemies always move in the blank region. It's also using only one charset for the enemy. AND it doesn't use PM overlay...

 

Emkay are you Nuts or what? Have you been drinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un8pIcq6ZlQ

How will you get those guys with that colours if they weren't PMs. overlayed?

And they go over all PFs of the Gfxs. and that's why the original version use Bitmap Mode to not have the PF2/PF3 colour clash.

One of the guys it's PM0&PM1 overlay and the other guy it's PM2&PM3 overlay.

 

Indeed the distribution is like this:

-> Our guy has three colours:

PM0&PM1

These PMs. Oring PF0

These PMs. Oring PF1

-> Enemy has three colours but:

PM2&PM3

These PMs. Oring PF2

Surround/border Lines of the guy it's Black colour, indeed Backgr. Register colour (712)

 

 

 

On the later version you still have this but you even get ANTIC4 Char-Mode that are more cycles waste as you would need vertical scanlines shifting.

 

 

 

The New version seems worst because there's it seems that only the Enemy is PM overlayed and that why they go into Char-Mode (and they could easilly go the same and have PRIOR0 to get more/different colours on the guys and not have PF2/PF3 colour clash )

Edited October 10, 2011 by José Pereira

[emkay]

To me it looks like the Protagonist is using all PMs with overlay colour. Which means grey and dark red, resulting in the 3rd colour of red in the brightness of the grey colour. And the Enemy uses simply the Playfield colours that were independant of use.

[José Pereira]

afaik they're both as close to direct ports from the Apple version as is possible. This is definately true for the C64 one and I'm pretty sure the A8 is the same (I did check but it's been a long time ago).. Bitmap mode, no hardware anything (ie no hardware scrolling or sprites). So that means software scroll (ie rotating through the bitmap), software sprites. This is why it's so incredibly slow.

 

So for PoP you've got a static char screen taking up no CPU (for scrolling), software+pmg sprites which while slow in themselves, drawing them is the bulk of what the games CPU is taken up on. They don't need to run 50fps, none of the versions do so.

 

 

Yes, I was wrong on the C64 distribution of colours, but how they get this 5colours in each line?

In the Bitmap Multicolour and Software Scrolling?

[José Pereira]

To me it looks like the Protagonist is using all PMs with overlay colour. Which means grey and dark red, resulting in the 3rd colour of red in the brightness of the grey colour. And the Enemy uses simply the Playfield colours that were independant of use.

 

Sorry, yes, you win.

But next time will be I winning....

[PeteD]

 

Yes, I was wrong on the C64 distribution of colours, but how they get this 5colours in each line?

In the Bitmap Multicolour and Software Scrolling?

 

As long as there's a character gap between colour changes you can have as many colours per line as you want.

[emkay]

To me it looks like the Protagonist is using all PMs with overlay colour. Which means grey and dark red, resulting in the 3rd colour of red in the brightness of the grey colour. And the Enemy uses simply the Playfield colours that were independant of use.

 

Sorry, yes, you win.

But next time will be I winning....

 

Not sure

 

But for sure, there is no miracle of extra powers on the A8.

Charmode means more DMA, and 200 lines means more DMA than 182.... and LMS costs more DMA .... This means the CPU gets slower already.

The game lives by the fluent animations and straight gameplay. When using 90% of the CPU just for the colours, even the controls may suffer.

[emkay]

For Prince of Persia, simple Gr. 15 would be ok. Use the PMs for the lights and traps and so on.

And, if speed is good enough, give some additional player overlay to the protagonist.

[emkay]

 

 

afaik they're both as close to direct ports from the Apple version as is possible. This is definately true for the C64 one and I'm pretty sure the A8 is the same (I did check but it's been a long time ago).. Bitmap mode, no hardware anything (ie no hardware scrolling or sprites). So that means software scroll (ie rotating through the bitmap), software sprites. This is why it's so incredibly slow.

 

 

So for PoP you've got a static char screen taking up no CPU (for scrolling), software+pmg sprites which while slow in themselves, drawing them is the bulk of what the games CPU is taken up on. They don't need to run 50fps, none of the versions do so.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I was wrong on the C64 distribution of colours, but how they get this 5colours in each line?

 

In the Bitmap Multicolour and Software Scrolling?

 

 

 

 

And, btw. That's exactly where the coders been lazy. On the A8 just some DLIs with PM shapes behind the GFX would have helped here much.

 

[José Pereira]

To me it looks like the Protagonist is using all PMs with overlay colour. Which means grey and dark red, resulting in the 3rd colour of red in the brightness of the grey colour. And the Enemy uses simply the Playfield colours that were independant of use.

 

Sorry, yes, you win.

But next time will be I winning....

 

Not sure

 

But for sure, there is no miracle of extra powers on the A8.

Charmode means more DMA, and 200 lines means more DMA than 182.... and LMS costs more DMA .... This means the CPU gets slower already.

The game lives by the fluent animations and straight gameplay. When using 90% of the CPU just for the colours, even the controls may suffer.

 

 

O.k. as you will not get a proof of that I just say that if a coder comes we'll see...

If Char-Mode better but if not then I think that it can be just straight port of C64 on the Gfxs. and less cycles using/porting C64 into A8 GR.15 Bitmap Mode.

Just have to do a little, little 'push more up' in something

All this colours, all this guys coloured the same way...

 

GR.15 without Charsets waste of cycles on the first Charsets/BadLines and no vertical needing on the scanlines soft sprites vertical shifting it would be a simply port in Gfxs..

Sure I'll get cycles for the PMs. overlays in Bitmap Mode.

 

 

But I would listen coders around here opinions... Could this be 'Soft and PMs. guys overlays' and ANTIC4 and Walls masking?

[PeteD]

PoP almost definitely doesn't run 50fps on Apple (or C64). So if it's even 25fps you've got double the CPU to draw 2 guys on the screen...

[José Pereira]

PoP almost definitely doesn't run 50fps on Apple (or C64). So if it's even 25fps you've got double the CPU to draw 2 guys on the screen...

 

 

But A8 in Bitmap Mode or do you think there's a possibility to get it in ANTIC4 Char-Mode?

[potatohead]

I'll check tonight, but it's 7-10 FPS just off hand remembering my earlier session on Apple.

Edited October 11, 2011 by potatohead

[HuckleCat]

I'm still shocked reading this wondering how this action game came out for the Apple 2 but not the C64 or A8.

 

I loved playing it on the //c back in the day. I also remember it slowing down alot when anyone else was on the screen. Made the swordfights pretty easy.

[potatohead]

Yep

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fggouSd3dr4&noredirect=1

 

It might peak a bit higher, when there is little motion.

 

Was published by B0rderbrund. Not everything they did ended up on the "home" 8 bitters, and they were starting to produce for PC about that time too. My guess is the common elements required for Apple & PC made for a good overall alignment for ports. Anyone know?

 

Cool! The author has his original game development videos online. Here is a "cleaned up" animation test, where the character is developed, and it's operating on the game tiles.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gMYcna5OiA

Edited October 11, 2011 by potatohead

[José Pereira]

This one seems the same as the previous one:

But it isn't!

this one have a small/little change that make it possible to be in Bitmap Mode and easilly port all the Gfxs./game Map from C64.

 

Try to guess where's the diference, what I've done and why?

 

The guys sprites by now can be the same (I am doing a Marathon this Evening to see the C64 Hundreds of frames of all guys to see if I can get them with this looking).

Now we have screen in just 4colours GR.15 Bitmap Mode exactly like C64.

 

Still need, and no way to be different in having the guys with two PMs. overlays eachone.

But now we have many more cycles available.

Edited October 11, 2011 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

 

Cool! The author has his original game development videos online. Here is a "cleaned up" animation test, where the character is developed, and it's operating on the game tiles.

 

 

Mechner sure is a great guy and loves is work.

What retro old times coder have all the original stuff this way, produce a high quality video show with this...

Never ever seen anything like this from a coder...

Really amazing...

 

And, by the way, imagine if this had a Level Editor?

The thing I think it's best there are the possibility to our guy walking upside down...

[potatohead]

Yeah, level editing would be cool. Would depend on how the states were done. Maybe some good project for somebody. I sure like the pre-production videos myself. Was kind of surprised to see them.

 

He used VHS back then. Damn cool. The captures show interlace motion...

 

The more I think about it, the more I think the best move on A8 is 4 colors, and the PM's for the Prince. In some of the Apple screens, you can see the black outlined enemy. Also notice the patterns used for highlights and such. Great art actually. I think this game is on the double-high res screen. Not sure, will have to look at it closer. I don't see the color clashes in my quick look at the videos, but they could be there...

 

One could use the solid color + outline technique to satisfy the need for contrast on the prince and enemies, particularly if the pixel art was well thought out, avoiding solid colors, but for a few places where they would make sense. Dither the rest, just like the author did.

 

Apple had a crazy addressing scheme for the double high res. Even normal high-res wasn't straight forward, like a simple 4 color bitmap is. Atari should have a nice advantage in speed, just for those reasons. Some good pixel art would make for a very nice playing and looking game, IMHO. Notice the "pure" graphics on later ports. They don't have the great texture the Apple one does. Pixel art was more or less mandatory on that machine, just because it's all artifact color NTSC. But, nearly all those techniques work in a 4 color display.

 

Given the PM limits, and the overall use of color, a focus on speed would make a lot of sense. Apple had 6 unique colors (with black and white duplicated in two different horizontal positions), and 16 on the double high-res screen. The high-res screen (140 pixels) had color cells within a byte. 7 pixels were graphics data, the high order pixel shifting the color phase or set. A byte could contain black, white and either cyan / green, or blue / orange, but not, say blue and green. 6 color screen, funky addressing.

 

IMHO, that misalignment alone would explain not just doing a straight port. The art won't work out without a re-do, as 6 colors are needed and flexible. The challenge here would be good 4 color art, and some emphasis on the Prince and good animation speed. Pick 4 great colors, with different luma values, and dithering can make up for a lot! Again, look at the original title. For the most part, the colors were all bright as the core video signal really was binary. It's all dithering or artifacting on the Apple. Done in a 160 pixel, single scan line screen, it could look just great.

Edited October 11, 2011 by potatohead

[José Pereira]

I am using Bitmap Mode now and think now we have cycles to Mask the guys and PMs. overlays.

I have two examples of my W.I.Ps. with soft sprites with PMs. overlays running on screen and they are in Char-Mode.

Let's think that the cycles we win on Bitmap Mode would let us go into Soft&Hardware overlays...

 

Will you ever get anything better than this?

Just examples to what you could get in all the Levels like this but also on the Palace.

Edited October 11, 2011 by José Pereira

[emkay]

As the Apple 2 version is already there, shouldn't it be a "simple" task to disassemble it

 

and to realign the Address ranges? As the machines do almost the similar for a game ? At least it should be easier than to adopt the code from the Spectrum as XXL does.

 

I guess the Apple simply has some Gr. 8 like linear frame buffer.

 

After it has been converted, the GFX could be adjusted to gr. 15 and some PM overlay could be added.

 

My suggestion is to use the overlay just for the bright white of the Prince's cloth and the weapons, while the background still should use colours at a lower level.

 

[José Pereira]

As the Apple 2 version is already there, shouldn't it be a "simple" task to disassemble it

 

and to realign the Address ranges? As the machines do almost the similar for a game ? At least it should be easier than to adopt the code from the Spectrum as XXL does.

 

I guess the Apple simply has some Gr. 8 like linear frame buffer.

 

After it has been converted, the GFX could be adjusted to gr. 15 and some PM overlay could be added.

 

My suggestion is to use the overlay just for the bright white of the Prince's cloth and the weapons, while the background still should use colours at a lower level.

 

Emkay there's no way to use the White as PMs because you then wouldn't have the Skin colour in the Walls.

 

Solution is White because it can be in all the screens/Levels and can also be used in the two guys Weapons.

The Skin colour in the Face/Arms and Feet can be then done with 2PMs.

These parts of the body are not joined most of the times and that why you can have 4different Hardware sprites at different parts like:

Missile/.../Player/.../Player/.../Missile

 

There are frames where even a 20pixels wide wouldn't cover the White area.

 

-> 2Weapons are 2PMs.

-> White are at least 2PMs.

Now how to colour?

-> Skin

-> Enemy clothes

Why I think that when you start with this talking/Gr.7 I think you didn't ever see a video at YouTube

 

Here you have all the sprites frames for all the guys:

pop sprites c64.zip

Take some time seeing them (I am from yesterday trying to get something) and then do your proposal.

You don't know what you are saying.

 

 

 

About all that trouble with converting Gfxs. I don't see why...

Would you ever get a better looking colours/looking/IMHO then the ones I have in my Pictures?

And that colours/luminances are already choosed to fit in all the different guys/different frames/different Levels.

Edited October 11, 2011 by José Pereira

[potatohead]

http://jordanmechner.com/old-journals/

 

The whole story, BTW. Great reading.