Double Dragon XM

[YANDMAN]

do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

[MobiusAqua]

Forgive me if this is technical ignorance speaking, but I wonder if all it would take, for something like that, is a big enough circuit board, and the POKEY and SID mapped to different memory addresses? Or is there more to it, than that?

[rockman_x_2002]

I'd be up for seeing a 7800 cartridge with a SID and POKEY installed. It's entirely possible.

 

Given that information, then, I might explore that idea. I still want to do a POKEY-only soundtrack, but I might additionally do something that would kinda combine the POKEY and SID together for some interesting effects.

 

Another thought, too. What about two POKEYs on a cart, working in tandem? I know Atari used multiple POKEYs in some of their arcade games, so I'm guessing that'd work here as well?

[+DrVenkman]

 

Given that information, then, I might explore that idea. I still want to do a POKEY-only soundtrack, but I might additionally do something that would kinda combine the POKEY and SID together for some interesting effects.

 

Another thought, too. What about two POKEYs on a cart, working in tandem? I know Atari used multiple POKEYs in some of their arcade games, so I'm guessing that'd work here as well?

 

Well let's remember the title of this thread: "Double Dragon XM" - there's a POKEY and a Yamaha synth chip in this widget. Why not POKEY sound effects/bass line, and Yammie music?

[Rhomaios]

Well, as promised, I've continued my work on Double Dragon's title screen tune for the POKEY, and now it's pretty much complete. Thought I would share the final product with everyone, or what's close to the final product, at least.

 

 

This sounds 100x better than the arcade and 1000x better than the horrific Genesis port.

[JagCD]

 

Given that information, then, I might explore that idea. I still want to do a POKEY-only soundtrack, but I might additionally do something that would kinda combine the POKEY and SID together for some interesting effects.

 

Another thought, too. What about two POKEYs on a cart, working in tandem? I know Atari used multiple POKEYs in some of their arcade games, so I'm guessing that'd work here as well?

 

That would be epic -- just from a technical standpoint. Has a SID and a POKEY ever been combined before? Not to my knowledge.

[Jinks]

 

That would be epic -- just from a technical standpoint. Has a SID and a POKEY ever been combined before? Not to my knowledge.

Not epic... he be like sick and off the hook yo.

[Lynxpro]

 

See...... I still respectivefully disagree. I think because of the Commodore and Apple II, people got a lot more sophisticated games -- cartridges couldn't compete with floppies at the time for storage space and what really killed Atari Inc wasn't the prices.... It was the depth of the games. Home computers had arguably better graphics, deeper gameplay and superior music/sound (by 1983 standards) on the 8 bit home computers. I remember when my family upgraded my Atari 2600 to a Commodore 64.... and it was a huge jump (although, I never discarded my 2600 and still use it do this day). I think the huge mistake of the early days is that consumers/industry executives saw game consoles and home computers as mutually exclusive.... While later generations of game consoles began to complement the home computer. Nowadays, everyone owns both a PC and a game console, but back in the 1980's it was an either/or situation.

 

Are you forgetting Atari had their own computer line with disk drives? Arguably better computers? It was the C64 price war that hurt the Atari 8-bits, not the Apple // line.

 

Atari 8-bits were the market leaders in sales prior to the C64 debut and price cuts.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Lynxpro

[Lynxpro]

 

Given that information, then, I might explore that idea. I still want to do a POKEY-only soundtrack, but I might additionally do something that would kinda combine the POKEY and SID together for some interesting effects.

 

Another thought, too. What about two POKEYs on a cart, working in tandem? I know Atari used multiple POKEYs in some of their arcade games, so I'm guessing that'd work here as well?

 

Careful. You might summon CPU Wiz and then he'll mock you over your multi-POKEY loving madness as he does to me.

 

The XM Board for the 7800 offered Dual POKEY support but I don't think any 7800 homebrew supports dual configurations. There are a few Dual POKEY mods for the Atari 8-bit computers in order to give them stereo sound; some games support them. An Atari 8-bit computer can actually map up to 16 POKEYs [although another user has pointed out that the Commodore 64 can map 32 SIDs].

 

Atari Coin [inc] and Atari Games used single, dual, and quad POKEY configurations in their arcade games.

[JagCD]

 

Are you forgetting Atari had their own computer line with disk drives? Arguably better computers? It was the C64 price war that hurt the Atari 8-bits, not the Apple // line.

 

Atari 8-bits were the market leaders in sales prior to the C64 debut and price cuts.

 

I really think you give Commodore way too much credit. At their peak, they only had 40% marketshare. Apple had about 20% during this period

(combining Mac and Apple II).

 

I really think it was the IBM PC that ultimately led to the demise of all the 8 bits -- With PC's creeping from 10% marketshare in 1982 all the way

past 90% by the early 1990's. I also think the Atari 8 bit computers had pretty terrible distribution post-1984 -- I remember they disappeared

from a lot of stores by 1985.... By comparison, I do remember seeing Commodore 64's at Sears, Service Merchandise and Toys R' Us as late

as 1992 (it does explain why they held on a little longer). Neither Atari or Commodore compared to the market juggernaut of the PC clone by

about 1987, though.

 

Edited May 28, 2015 by JagCD

[DracIsBack]

 

I really think you give Commodore way too much credit. At their peak, they only had 40% marketshare.

 

What is this measuring? Marketshare of units shipped in a time period or installed base of users? Also - which region?

 

Not sure what I'm looking at except for a graph. What's the source?

[JagCD]

 

What is this measuring? Marketshare of units shipped in a time period or installed base of users? Also - which region?

 

Not sure what I'm looking at except for a graph. What's the source?

 

It was on Ar's Technica a while back. This market share graph was worldwide installed user base if I recall.

I'm not sure if the original article is still on their web site, though -- it was originally written around 1998.

[Trebor]

Given the availability of sprite sources, new docs and tools ... and the XM, wondering if any improvements could be done to make Double Dragon look and act better than it does today.

 

KevinMos3, today, provided an improved look that is completely playable here.

[KevinMos3]

Thanks for the plug! An update is available now, including a lot of color changes to the levels. More tweaking may need to be done, depending on how it turns out to look on real hardware. Also, if someone wants to improve on my sprite edits, I'd love to see it. They could be made a little taller as long as they stay shorter than Abobo (IMO, it just wouldn't look right if the player were as tall as him). Let me know what you think and again, if anyone has better ideas, please share.

 

I'm about to be gone until November, so I can do a bit more work then.

[KevinMos3]

They could be made a little taller as long as they stay shorter than Abobo

Nope, they must stay as they are (no more than 32 pixels tall).

 

 

Lots more changes to the sprites and colors of characters and levels. Available in the hack thread here.

 

 

[Stun Runner 87]

That looks better than master system and NES.

Great work.

[Lynxpro]

I should add - to the information above - that Atari Games would use a full buffet of sound chips in their later arcade games. They'd have a POKEY - single or double - for audio sfx, a YM2151 for music, a TI Speech Synthesis chip, and a 6502 to control all of those chips and/or for other audio as well. Prior to those configurations, they'd use single, Dual, and Quad POKEYs [such as on Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back].

 

An example of an Atari 8-bit computer game that uses dual POKEYs for stereo is Tempest Extreme. Space Harrier might also [i forget].

 

I think the POKEY audio sample above for Double Dragon is awesome enough. I guess the TIA could still be used for audio sfx so music and sfx could both play at the same time. That's without moving to using Dual POKEYs, or the YM2151, or a SID.

[78001987]

That looks better than master system and NES.

Great work.

This is crazy talk. It looks great, especially for the 7800. I love KEvin's hacks/reworking of all these 7800 games.

 

But SMS Double Dragon is almost Arcade perfect, graphically.

 

[Trebor]

This is crazy talk. It looks great, especially for the 7800. I love KEvin's hacks/reworking of all these 7800 games.

But SMS Double Dragon is almost Arcade perfect, graphically.

 

While SMS games are overall superior looking among the 8-bit consoles, Double Dragon as almost Arcade perfect, graphically, would be a considerable stretch.

 

Looking to the next generation of consoles, Double Dragon ported to the Mega Drive is almost Arcade perfect, graphically.

 

Mega Drive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksuOA3XNq2Y

 

Arcade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo6R6LqpNNY

 

This game could have looked much better on the 7800 from the start. A little more effort by Activision could have made a substantial difference than what they provided to the console.

 

Regardless, Kevin's very much appreciated work breathes new life into Activision's port, despite the lackluster foundation template he had to work with.

[KevinMos3]

For fun, here is a comparison of an arcade sprite with the NES, SMS, SMS (edit), 7800 (Marco edit), 7800 (my edit), and 7800 original.

 

 

And if anyone wants to patch their Master System ROM with my sprite tweak, here is an ips. Use it with Lunar IPS or something similar to patch your original ROM. I like the SMS version (especially with FM sound), but Billy/Jimmy's heads always bothered me even though they are very similar to the NES version, which didn't bother me. So here's a patch to slim down the main characters' heads and tweak their arms. All other aspects of the graphics were left untouched (except I did fix a couple sprites where blue was in the face and hands when it shouldn't have been.

 

Double Dragon -SMS (Spite Tweak).ips.zip

[Trebor]

For fun, here is a comparison of an arcade sprite with the NES, SMS, SMS (edit), 7800 (Marco edit), 7800 (my edit), and 7800 original.

 

DD Sprite Compare.png

 

And if anyone wants to patch their Master System ROM with my sprite tweak, here is an ips. Use it with Lunar IPS or something similar to patch your original ROM. I like the SMS version (especially with FM sound), but Billy/Jimmy's heads always bothered me even though they are very similar to the NES version, which didn't bother me. So here's a patch to slim down the main characters' heads and tweak their arms. All other aspects of the graphics were left untouched (except I did fix a couple sprites where blue was in the face and hands when it shouldn't have been.

 

Double Dragon -SMS (Spite Tweak).ips.zip

 

Thanks for the comparison and the IPS patch for the SMS version...Very cool, Kevin!

 

Something may have occurred when transposing "7800 Marco", or perhaps it's an older model (?)

 

The most recent model posted shows the character at the same height as the other 8 bit contemporaries, considerably larger than the original template:

 

 

The above model is applied to an incomplete hack that was posted; for reference:

 

Marco: Original:

[KevinMos3]

Yes, but I didn't use that one because the height doesn't work. You may not have noticed with that 1 frame demo, but if the player is any taller, the sprites bleed over into the knockdown sprites. So, we're unfortunately stuck with 32 pixels high... unless a better hacker than I changes it.

[Trebor]

Yes, but I didn't use that one because the height doesn't work. You may not have noticed with that 1 frame demo, but if the player is any taller, the sprites bleed over into the knockdown sprites. So, we're unfortunately stuck with 32 pixels high... unless a better hacker than I changes it.

Absolutely noticed and realized the limitation earlier. It was implied in my comments previously when mentioning: "Kevin's very much appreciated work breathes new life into Activision's port, despite the lackluster foundation template he had to work with", as well as denoting Marco's hack is "incomplete".

 

It seems there's no way around it though, to get even more out of Double Dragon, we're looking at something very similar to what Perry applied with Donkey Kong to create Donkey Kong PK/XM (Which is writing ~95% new programming code). In that case, it is practically writing a brand new port from scratch.

 

Activision dropped the ball with this one and Rampage, which like Double Dragon, the work you've accomplished there, breathes new life into the port. Thank you very much for both updates, Kevin...Fantastic work!

[DracIsBack]

 

 

While SMS games are overall superior looking among the 8-bit consoles, Double Dragon as almost Arcade perfect, graphically, would be a considerable stretch.

 

 

Totally agree. I have the 7800, SMS, NES (and 2600) versions. The SMS is pretty good in that it follows the arcade, has two players and a lot of the moves, plus the graphics are better than the 7800 version. I find the control sluggish and some of the color schemes weird to be honest. I actually think the NES version is the best looking of the three, but it's missing so many elements and the levels are quite different.

 

 

This game could have looked much better on the 7800 from the start. A little more effort by Activision could have made a substantial difference than what they provided to the console.Regardless, Kevin's very much appreciated work breathes new life into Activision's port, despite the lackluster foundation template he had to work with.

 

 

 

I totally agree. I've said this many times on these forums: While I've had plenty of fun with 7800 Double Dragon, it smacks of a tiny development budget. The cart is half the size of the SMS version. The Abobo sprites are lifted from a completely different game. Whole elements are missing. The AI is unbelievably stupid at times. You can reverse jump kick through the whole game and trap enemies in corners easily.

 

Activision advertised it as having "The best ever graphics and sound for the Atari", but honestly, I thought that was insulting to take that marketing stance. I'm not even debating how it might or might not have compared to the other 8bits. I don't think what they released was remotely close to the best the 7800 could have done.

 

Even with tweaking the sprite coloring, look how much better Kevin made the game look.

 

Now imagine if - say - Blue Sky Software or Scultured Software - was given a year development budget, a 256K cartridge and American Technos demanded approval on quality?

[Lynxpro]

Are the SMS sprites doable on the 7800, or would that require the total rewrite of the game?