Double Dragon XM

[DracIsBack]

Absolutely. I always wondered what a rewrite (a little RAM on board, a 144K/256K cart) and a bit more time might have achieved.

A lot of Double Dragon's issue is simply that it felt like Activision didn't want to invest too much in it, unsure of the market potential.

[fluxit]

Having just played '3 games' of Double Dragon 7800 back to back- original followed by Kevin's and then original again, the difference is night and day.

 

It took me a couple of minutes to get used to the janky controls of the 7800 version again after not having played it for a couple of years. Once I did, it wasn't a terrible experience, but the control is pretty bad, and almost nothing like the arcade. I guess that I started to learn the game's timing to avoid trading hit for hit, but I'm not entirely certain what I learned in order to do better. On the one hand, it's nice that the elbow and the head-butt are not as consistently deadly as the arcade so you won't rely on them too much. On the other, half the time if I do them on the 7800 it's an accident due to the crummy control scheme.

 

Still, what kills it for me is the sound. The arcade music is iconic. The 7800's short boopy loop starts to drive me up the wall after about a minute and a half of play. The tuning is fine I suppose for what it is, but three minutes in, and I'm ready to turn off the sound(or quit playing.) It's a soundtrack that I'd expect from a Tiger LCD game, not the 7800(TIA notwithstanding.)

[KevinMos3]

Having just played '3 games' of Double Dragon 7800 back to back- original followed by Kevin's and then original again, the difference is night and day...

Thank you!

 

 

...I guess that I started to learn the game's timing to avoid trading hit for hit, but I'm not entirely certain what I learned in order to do better...

A key to playing this version, the 2600 version, and even the Sega Master System version (to some extent), is to keep the enemies chasing you rather than letting them line up with you for attack. Enemies in the 7800 version have 2 modes, one where they are moving to get by you and get in line with you, and the other when they are moving in for attack. If they are in attack mode, you are going to get hit unless you break that up. One way to break it up is by hitting them first (which is easiest to do with a jumpkick or reverse jumpkick), or by moving out of their attack path enough times that they go back into their other mode. If you pay attention to those 2 enemy patterns and keep them from lining up with you while they're in attack mode, you can really have your way with them. The reverse jumpkick tactic isn't even needed to totally dominate the enemies.

Edited October 5, 2018 by KevinMos3

[DracIsBack]

Having just played '3 games' of Double Dragon 7800 back to back- original followed by Kevin's and then original again, the difference is night and day.

 

It took me a couple of minutes to get used to the janky controls of the 7800 version again after not having played it for a couple of years. Once I did, it wasn't a terrible experience, but the control is pretty bad, and almost nothing like the arcade. I guess that I started to learn the game's timing to avoid trading hit for hit, but I'm not entirely certain what I learned in order to do better. On the one hand, it's nice that the elbow and the head-butt are not as consistently deadly as the arcade so you won't rely on them too much. On the other, half the time if I do them on the 7800 it's an accident due to the crummy control scheme.

 

Still, what kills it for me is the sound. The arcade music is iconic. The 7800's short boopy loop starts to drive me up the wall after about a minute and a half of play. The tuning is fine I suppose for what it is, but three minutes in, and I'm ready to turn off the sound(or quit playing.) It's a soundtrack that I'd expect from a Tiger LCD game, not the 7800(TIA notwithstanding.)

 

 

The controls are different on the 7800 version. In truth, learn the reverse jump kick and head butt and you'll find it pretty easy to navigate through the game. Especially the reserve jump kick. Trust me, you can walk through this version fairly easily if you learn that move and some of the AI tricks like cornering people against walls and stuff.

 

I actually don't mind the sound.

 

Personally, I think it's an old beat, tired, cliched, annoying diatribe at this point to go on about the TIA sound in the 7800 at this point. Everyone knows that GCC wanted sound to be used in cartridges more frequently (per the 7800's design) and everyone knows that in reality that the Tramiels didn't do it except with Command and Ballblazer.

 

With that said, I actually thought Imagineering created a decent TIA soundtrack of Double Dragon, with some of the musical spots (ie ending themes) not being bad at all, even compared to what was on the SMS for example. Bleepy for sure, limited for sure but I've heard far worse TIA musical cues on the 7800 than what is here.

 

And as we've seen in this thread, if GCCs vision of utilizing an onboard POKEY could also have really helped achieve the iconic music of the arcade.

[maxdrive]

So you think if this gets fleshed out it could become the best console version of the original double dragon on a 8 bit system

[Lynxpro]

 

 

The controls are different on the 7800 version. In truth, learn the reverse jump kick and head butt and you'll find it pretty easy to navigate through the game. Especially the reserve jump kick. Trust me, you can walk through this version fairly easily if you learn that move and some of the AI tricks like cornering people against walls and stuff.

 

I actually don't mind the sound.

 

Personally, I think it's an old beat, tired, cliched, annoying diatribe at this point to go on about the TIA sound in the 7800 at this point. Everyone knows that GCC wanted sound to be used in cartridges more frequently (per the 7800's design) and everyone knows that in reality that the Tramiels didn't do it except with Command and Ballblazer.

 

With that said, I actually thought Imagineering created a decent TIA soundtrack of Double Dragon, with some of the musical spots (ie ending themes) not being bad at all, even compared to what was on the SMS for example. Bleepy for sure, limited for sure but I've heard far worse TIA musical cues on the 7800 than what is here.

 

And as we've seen in this thread, if GCCs vision of utilizing an onboard POKEY could also have really helped achieve the iconic music of the arcade.

 

 

GCC envisioned selling their GUMBY audio chip to Atari Inc for inclusion with every future 7800 cartridge sold, thereby increasing their royalties. They claimed their GUMBY would be better and cheaper than POKEY. They claimed they couldn't fit a POKEY onto the motherboard requirements for the 7800 since Warner dictated the 7800 case would be re-using the dimensions of the Atari 2800/Sears Video Arcade II system. Warner never called GCC out on their alleged BS.

[DracIsBack]

GCC envisioned selling their GUMBY audio chip to Atari Inc for inclusion with every future 7800 cartridge sold, thereby increasing their royalties. They claimed their GUMBY would be better and cheaper than POKEY. They claimed they couldn't fit a POKEY onto the motherboard requirements for the 7800 since Warner dictated the 7800 case would be re-using the dimensions of the Atari 2800/Sears Video Arcade II system. Warner never called GCC out on their alleged BS.

This is probably true. But regardless of technical implementation, the 7800 was designed to have sound two ways ... the built in TIA or an on-board cartridge sound chip

 

 

And it’s also fair to say that the Tramiels didn’t utilize this feature in the same way that there weren’t 256K, 384K and 512k 7800 games; and there were battery backups and keyboard expansions etc.

[Lynxpro]

This is probably true. But regardless of technical implementation, the 7800 was designed to have sound two ways ... the built in TIA or an on-board cartridge sound chip

 

 

And it’s also fair to say that the Tramiels didn’t utilize this feature in the same way that there weren’t 256K, 384K and 512k 7800 games; and there were battery backups and keyboard expansions etc.

 

 

Well, I can guess why the Tramiels abandoned the 7800 Keyboard...it would've overlapped too much with the XE Game System. Remember, the XE Game System wasn't meant to compete with the 7800 - even though it probably did a little - it was meant to hook families that were debating whether to buy a game system or a cheap home computer. That and retailers wanted to stock a game system and not the 65XE. And it was an attempt to get new customers for the Atari 8-bit computer line since the software publishers were dumping the line and claiming it was all due to piracy.

 

The 7800 Keyboard is still rather interesting though. Plugged into Joystick Port #2 instead of the low-bandwidth Expansion Slot. Featured an SIO Port which meant a PIA had to be included inside of it. That and it resembled the Commodore SX-64's Keyboard even though it was designed prior to Tramiel's Atari Corp while good ol' Warner/Atari Inc and GCC were in charge of the project(s).

 

I totally agree with you on higher-capacity Super Game Cartridges that never materialized, plus the lack of battery backup. Had the 7800 Keyboard been released, they could've chosen to use an Atari 1010 or 1050 to backup games to tapes/floppies. Perhaps that would've been overkill.

 

Still, would Activision have used POKEYs? I doubt it unless the 7800 licensing program operated more like Nintendo's and the whole argument for Atari Corp's liberal licensing agreements was that it wasn't like Nintendo's. Post-crash Activision seemed to have forgotten about their own in-house DPC chip. Sure, several folks have stated on here and on Facebook that it wouldn't have worked on 7800 games but it sure would've worked for Activision's various post-crash 2600 releases and they didn't use it at all... So there's a lot of blame to go around...