sack-c0s Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Because you'd just armchair coach the hell out of them and they'd get pissed off and do something they find more satisfying instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ultraedit feels like a nice balance of fancy features and being quick and useful. Compared to the other editors mentioned I think the only reason to choose UE over something like crimson is familiarity. Its probably not worth switching to it. i'm still using Crimson Editor here, it's light on resources, handles everything i want to do apart from working with BlitzMax (and some days i nearly get around to seeing if that's workable to be honest, MaxIDE has it's "moments") and i've got it down to the point where i've only three assemblers on four hotkey combinations now that i've switched to using ACME for everything 6502 bar the A8. i've been tinkering with Brainpower today as well, only got a few final modifications and a metal test and it's ready to go out (unless sack has some spare music [hopeful look =-]) so fingers crossed it'll be released tomorrow or Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Because you'd just armchair coach the hell out of them and they'd get pissed off and do something they find more satisfying instead. It's more that people ignore the A8 because others tell what a crap machine it is, because it cannot do some stuff the C64 can do. That some of you feel "pissed" by my writings, does not mean that the theme is that relevant for mankind, as you might think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Why the heck don't we have the same amount (or at least a valuable count ) of "3d" coders ? You find them in any 8 bit scene even finishing playable games. But we don't have even one of those "Doom" or "Wolf" clones. Why do coders that were interested in 3D coding on 8 bits not take a look at the Atari, but prefer the slower C64 or use a Spectrum instead? Why do they prefer the C64 or Spectrum? Because most of them started on the C64 or Spectrum. And if a 6502 bunny wants to find something else with a bit more CPU grind, the A8 isn't the only option and most of the other communities are much more welcoming of new people. In fact there have been some of the people you're talking about passing through these very forums over the years (although not necessarily under their regular scene handles) but, after seeing how coders generally are treated by some people here and all that anti-C64 bile that apparently has to be spouted without provocation, most of them simply don't fancy the idea of putting in a significant amount of hard work only to be slated because the results aren't what someone else wanted. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Nice footnote. I like open books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Nice footnote. I like open books. There was absolutely no point to this post, but had it been 6502 you'd have a few more lines of that 3D game you're desperate for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) In fact there have been some of the people you're talking about passing through these very forums over the years (although not necessarily under their regular scene handles) but, after seeing how coders generally are treated by some people here and all that anti-C64 bile that apparently has to be spouted without provocation, most of them simply don't fancy the idea of putting in a significant amount of hard work only to be slated because the results aren't what someone else wanted. This is polemical garbage. Your "interested coders" are those who felt insulted when writing that the C64 wasn't the best around. They even haven't been interested in coding 3D environment. They code their known 8 bit and try to optimize it, not understanding what others want. Edited April 22, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Because you'd just armchair coach the hell out of them and they'd get pissed off and do something they find more satisfying instead. It's more that people ignore the A8 because others tell what a crap machine it is, because it cannot do some stuff the C64 can do. Except they don't. What some of us do say is that the Atari 8-bit is fun but this community as a whole is really unfriendly to outsiders turning up, so if you're going to try something keep away from the forums. That some of you feel "pissed" by my writings, does not mean that the theme is that relevant for mankind, as you might think of. But i've had people i've tried to talk into coding on the A8 tell me that it's what you and others have said that kept them away. i'm not writing all this stuff about the community as a whole for my health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Because you'd just armchair coach the hell out of them and they'd get pissed off and do something they find more satisfying instead. It's more that people ignore the A8 because others tell what a crap machine it is, because it cannot do some stuff the C64 can do. Except they don't. What some of us do say is that the Atari 8-bit is fun but this community as a whole is really unfriendly to outsiders turning up, so if you're going to try something keep away from the forums. That's what I propose to guys like you. Every discussion would simply concentrate on the A8, without being disrupted from outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) But i've had people i've tried to talk into coding on the A8 tell me that it's what you and others have said that kept them away. And I guess I know about how you told them.... Not explaining the truth, just the limited interpretation. It's really ridiculous how some people here get the reality. Ask Sheddy, Fox, ERU whoever "real coders" on the A8 how I "treat" them. Particular Sheddy has always been a polite contact. Edited April 22, 2012 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 But i've had people i've tried to talk into coding on the A8 tell me that it's what you and others have said that kept them away. And I guess I know about how you told them.... Not explaining the truth, just the limited interpretation. Yeah, because i hate the Atari 8-bit so bloody much don't i... that's why i write code for the Atari 8-bit, why all my self-made conversion tools all support the Atari 8-bit, why i've got my 800XL and SIO2SD sat next to my C64 and Turbo Chameleon, why i watch demos and play games on it, why i'm TRYING TO GET MORE PEOPLE CODING ON IT. All because i utterly hate the A8 and therefore misrepresent it to the outside world. Good grief emkay, you really do live in a fantasy world... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 TMR... please still write A8 stuff for Retro Gamer... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 @emkay. ever spend some time to think why most get in trouble with you and f.e. not with me? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 having read the last page of this thread I've been trying to think of a way of getting through to Emkay, but I think a quick game of catchphrase is realistically going to be the only way forward. Just say what you see: now take *that* and put some PM sprites over it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 TMR... please still write A8 stuff for Retro Gamer... Oh yeah i do that too, i knew there was something i'd forgotten! So add writing about the Atari 8-bit in a print magazine to the previous list of anti-Atari hate crimes - i don't know, all those reviews of A8 games and interviews with Sheddy, xxl, Heaven... i really go out of my way to scare people away from the A8 don't i? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Space Harrier certainly scared me away for the A8 - it's just not natural that it should run that well. It's witchcraft I tell you! BURN IT! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) TMR, I don't know why you bother to replay to Emkay, he's just a fountain of negativity.. I've never seen someone pick holes in peoples work so often on a machine he claims to like, seriously, when I see an Emkay post the initial reaction is "what now" and I'm rarely disappointed. I'm no coder, my maths is awful but I've given it a go at times with limited results, mainly I'm an enjoyer of the Atari these days, it used to be my work, my hobby and it paid the bills and opened nice opportunities for me at times. Now I just play and test stuff but my awe of the coders is still there, I bow to the stuff that Sheddy, yourself, Miker, FlashJazz, candle and all the other immensely talented people in here who either code or make hardware, I have only applause for the Atarians in here and it distresses me that someone can have such a deep ingrained irritation about what people produce. If Emkay was putting out earth-shattering, mind boggling software then I might think "well at least he walks the walk" but that isn't the case, he's got musical talent which is great but nit picking a 3D development seems beyond his depth so why bother, its certainly not enticing people into wanting to code and as TMR said other system coders get a rough welcome most times so sticking the fork in isn't helpful. I know I have no status in this group which is fine by me, all I'm doing is saying what I see and its just unproductive, like a tree, if you start chopping at the roots and snipping the new buds off before they can grow the tree will wither and die. Edited April 23, 2012 by Mclaneinc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) At last - an opportunity to quote Ernest from Oscar Wilde's The Critic as Artist: "Why should the artist be troubled by the shrill clamour of criticism? Why should those who cannot create take upon themselves to estimate the value of creative work? What can they know about it? If a man's work is easy to understand, an explanation is unnecessary. . . " Whether a critic needs to be able to "walk the walk" is a moot point. At the very least, an intricate and authoritative understanding of the matters at hand is a requirement. At the end of the day, no one is going to pay us coders a regular wage to develop for the A8. If a coder sits down to write something, he surely does so out of curiosity, self-gratification, or for sheer entertainment (i.e. fun). If a coder feels driven to create something which just happens to address an area in which the A8 has been short-changed in the past, it's probably a happy coincidence. In normal circumstances, though, I'm afraid it's generally a case of "put up or shut up". These are very accessible technologies, and if one has a burning desire to see something done, what better reward than to realize it oneself? Suggestions and ideas for projects are always welcome, but no developer can be compelled to spend his or her time this way or that. What I see here is an enormous amount of negative energy for want of a better term. We should encourage those projects already underway, and welcome talented coders from other platforms. There's nothing wrong with a bit of friendly rivalry, but it seems that doesn't survive long here before it morphs into something far more rancorous. Edited April 23, 2012 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 As TMR has pointed out, this sort of pissing is entirely predictable... so why do we still let it derail thread after thread? If you see a negative post from one of the usual suspects, just pretend it's an ad for tampons and skip over it. Frankly, I don't even bother to figure out exactly what's being argued about since much of it seems to take place in bizarre figures of speech. Anyway, I've come to the realization that even if Commodore is the enemy, it's still my 2nd favorite 8-bit (and I occasionally fire one up when no one's looking). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 just pretend it's an ad for tampons and skip over it. arrgh! what to do? - on one hand a feedline like this only comes along every few years. On the other hand if I bite it's pretty much a certain ban. What a dilemma... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 TMR, I don't know why you bother to replay to Emkay, he's just a fountain of negativity.. Masochism. =-) This is the second time i've been asked this today... most of the time i try to play nice and bite my tongue (we're back to the masochism again...) but in this particular case the original question raised was around the "why isn't anyone turning up to do this on the A8" mark so me, as an "outsider" with all my evil Atari-hating works in tow, is in a pretty good position to comment. But this thread has seen a few people fire up their IDEs and do some code so that's a Good Thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 just pretend it's an ad for tampons and skip over it. arrgh! what to do? - on one hand a feedline like this only comes along every few years. On the other hand if I bite it's pretty much a certain ban. i can see where this is going - DON'T DO IT!! =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 After watching the entire video I learned that the idea I've been toying with of adding a C64 to my collection is wasted time and money. (Probably will add a 1200XL to the "museum" now.) The Commodore machine came out several years after the Ataris, but the hardware features rate little better than the older generation BEFORE the Atari. If it weren't for the sprites the C64 would have barely usable graphics. I also learned that some C64 demo coders can't do anything unless someone else writes an editor/utility for them. We're pretty *bleeping* spoiled with huge palettes, graphics modes that can reference any memory line by line, character sets only limited by 1K boundaries, etc. We get so much stuff for free that the C64 coders have to hack a beam racing kernel to fake. And ilmenit's pictures look cool. Hmmmm 1. 64kb out of the box 2. Massively improved sprite capabilities. 3. More versatile 3 channel analogue synth on a chip. Also the C64 VIC-II/SID chipset was finished only 9 months (for the unreleased arcade motherboard project put on hold) after the first handful of 8kb A8 computers went on sale in December 79. Jack re-used the chipset to make the VIC-20s big brother. I hope your museum is Atari only because you have no knowledge outside blinkered fanboy self propagated myths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hold firm Sack! I share your temptation. Seriously... The ball is right there, teed up proper, just begging somebody to swing that bat! (Oh, and I could too!) Not gonna, not gonna, not gonna... DAMM not gonna, not gonna, not gonna... Re: Not entertain... Yeah, tampon ads. Ok, I'm not sure I needed that visual, but it works, so +1 for that. As for why it's a problem... Case in point: Who is actually going to write a POKEY tracker, knowing where it's bound to go now? Seriously. The thing could be a super human effort and still the basic framing is there, and it's deffo shitty. Say it does exactly what Emkay wants it to do. Ok, witness one's hard work being cited as "he's right" for years on end, and used as a bludgon too. That's attractive. Say it does wonderful things, but not the way Emkay would have it done. Now it's shit, and if people would have just listened to the wise sage Emkay, it would be golden... So then, the work ends up as a bludgon on the author who did it for entertainment! And so it goes. Back to the little diddy posted here. Has anyone done that kind of thing before? Horizontal rainbow? I don't recall seeing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) In other communities, kibitzing like we see this guy doing is frowned upon, and it's frowned upon because it's just bad form, period. Now, we had another one here doing that, generally pissing in the pool. Heck, he would mail out cables to people, in some strange twist actually inviting people into the the pool, which appeared a nice gesture at first glance, only to turn ugly when the pissing started!! He got banned eventually, but it took an epic clash that really was more ugly than it needed to be. So here we are then. Just crappy. More crappy than it needs to be. Edited April 23, 2012 by potatohead 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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