Is it blasphemy to use a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS?

[Schizophretard]

Did Atari ever consider a 2 button joystick? Clearly the 2600 was capable of it. The booster grip was available for omega race in I think 1984. In my mind it certainly was major problem for converting games to the system. I think they could have done 3 buttons by using both pot wires.

 

They did for systems after the VCS. They had no idea that the VCS would stay popular that long and more buttons would be needed.

[Schizophretard]

I certainly hope not, one of the games in my development queue has this in the menu:

 

The game reconfigures itself for 2 fire buttons if the gamepad option is selected.

That's awesome! The graphic even looks like a Genesis gamepad! May I ask what type of game you are creating?

 

When I use a Sega Genesis controller on my VCS the controls feel backwards in a way that I feel like I have to be left handed to do it comfortably. Anyway, here are the true gods you blasphemous heathen.

 

 

Actually, I've got something even better up my sleeves:

 

It's actually my second arcade controller project. The first was an NES controller. The Atari project was much simpler, because it didn't require any custom chips or electronics, just wires, solder, joystick, two buttons, and a female 9-pin Sub-D port. I used the Ultimark Mag-Stik Plus joystick, because it's switchable between 4-way and 8-way operation. You pull up on the Joystick knob and twist it to switch modes. It has two buttons for ambidextrous operation, but the buttons are wire in parallel, so they technically both function as a single button. The plywood box is 8x8x4 inches, not including the joystick height. I'm still waiting on a serial cable to arrive in the mail so that I can plug it into my Atari system, but I tested it on my USB adapter and it works flawlessly.

 

The NES arcade controller project was quite an overtaking, with a custom digital turbo circuit and "slow motion" switch. I don't have the Atari joystick uploaded to my Flickr account yet, but I eventually will:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157629736738048/

 

If that custom joystick was small enough to hold then I would probably like it.

[Syntaxerror999]

No but modding a heavy 6er is... and Im a sinner.

[stringfellow]

lately I've been using a battlestation II on most of my systems. I was using it to play sonic the hedgehog and had to switch to a game pad. So I plan on keeping a variety of sticks and pads.

[esplonky]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

[Schizophretard]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

[rhindlethereddragon]

I use a sega Genesis controller for the games on the Colecovision that allow it, because the games play and control so much better. Case in point: I've been able to reach levels of "Cosmic Avenger" that I only dreamed about back in the day.

[esplonky]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

 

Most public scoreboards for the atari 2600 Invalidate your score if you used a genesis pad.

[Schizophretard]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

 

Most public scoreboards for the atari 2600 Invalidate your score if you used a genesis pad.

 

If there is a rule in some competition then that is different because you are agreeing to the rules by choosing to compete. If people wanted to they could set up a competition that only allows Heavy Sixer hardware and controllers. If someone competed with other hardware then they would be cheating but a Sega Genesis controller isn't cheating in and of itself. It's just a controller. Since VCS games were designed to use your right hand for the directions and your left hand for the fire button(for right-handed players) then ,in my opinion, the Sega Genesis controller would be an inferior VCS controller because the controls are set up backwards. I don't see how that is like cheat codes. That's more like giving myself a handicap.

[boxpressed]

I use a sega Genesis controller for the games on the Colecovision that allow it, because the games play and control so much better. Case in point: I've been able to reach levels of "Cosmic Avenger" that I only dreamed about back in the day.

 

How are you getting two-button support on the CV with the Genesis controller? Is it modded?

[rhindlethereddragon]

I use a sega Genesis controller for the games on the Colecovision that allow it, because the games play and control so much better. Case in point: I've been able to reach levels of "Cosmic Avenger" that I only dreamed about back in the day.

 

How are you getting two-button support on the CV with the Genesis controller? Is it modded?

 

Well, that's why it only works with SOME Colecovision games. For example, when playing "Cosmic Avenger", the "B" button (I think) fires both CV controller buttons, so you are firing bullets and dropping bombs both at the same time. It's really the ONLY WAY to play Cosmic Avenger on the CV.

 

For other games - such as "Omega Race", you need the standard CV controller.

 

I have TWO Colecovisions set up: One with the stock controllers, and another with a Genesis controller.

 

Off the top of my head, here are some games that work well with the Genesis controller:

 

Donkey Kong

Zaxxon

Cosmic Avenger

Venture

Looping

Pitfall

Space Invaders collection

Cosmo Fighter 2/3 (I use "auto fire" for these games)

Froggger

Popeye

Centipede

Galaxian

 

So, basically, if the game uses 1 button, or if you would press both buttons at the same time (like in Cosmic Avenger), then the Genesis controller will work. For games like "Space Fury" - forget it.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

 

Most public scoreboards for the atari 2600 Invalidate your score if you used a genesis pad.

What is the official policy at Twin Galaxies regarding third party / non OEM controllers on video game consoles? Certain third party controllers also have cool features like turbo fire, which basically allow players to easily whup @ss in certain genres like space shooters and beat-'em-ups.

 

 

When I use a Sega Genesis controller on my VCS the controls feel backwards in a way that I feel like I have to be left handed to do it comfortably. Anyway, here are the true gods you blasphemous heathen.

 

 

Actually, I've got something even better up my sleeves:

 

It's actually my second arcade controller project. The first was an NES controller. The Atari project was much simpler, because it didn't require any custom chips or electronics, just wires, solder, joystick, two buttons, and a female 9-pin Sub-D port. I used the Ultimark Mag-Stik Plus joystick, because it's switchable between 4-way and 8-way operation. You pull up on the Joystick knob and twist it to switch modes. It has two buttons for ambidextrous operation, but the buttons are wire in parallel, so they technically both function as a single button. The plywood box is 8x8x4 inches, not including the joystick height. I'm still waiting on a serial cable to arrive in the mail so that I can plug it into my Atari system, but I tested it on my USB adapter and it works flawlessly.

 

The NES arcade controller project was quite an overtaking, with a custom digital turbo circuit and "slow motion" switch. I don't have the Atari joystick uploaded to my Flickr account yet, but I eventually will:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30203515@N04/sets/72157629736738048/

 

If that custom joystick was small enough to hold then I would probably like it.

The whole point of the arcade controller is that you don't hold it in your hand. My custom NES controller is even larger, a whopping 18x8x4 inches! The arcade sticks need a clearance of 3 inches underneath them, so with 1/2 inch plywood, the "brick" needs to be at least 4 inches in height. They are meant to be placed in the player's lap, or set on a table top for stand up play. My NES controller, despite being massive, is actually quite comfortable to play in my lap while sitting on the couch. It uses two 6 foot NES extension cables for the detachable cord, a total length of 12 feet. I ordered a 10 foot strait-through serial extension cable for the Atari arcade controller, but Amazon's "Super Saver" shipping is taking it's sweet little time before making it up my block. It seems the serial extension cables are better quality construction than the aftermarket "Genesis" extension cables. Edited July 25, 2012 by stardust4ever

[ledzep]

Use whatever controller you like but it is blasphemy to use a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS. Those games were made for joysticks and paddles and driving controllers, not gamepads. Might as well put a Chevy 350 in a BMW (some do, it's wrong). Convenience or preference is a valid excuse but it's still blasphemy. You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

[Schizophretard]

I understand the point and I wasn't saying I didn't like it. I meant I would like it as a replacement for my StarFighter if it could grab it in a similar way. If I were to make a similar controller then I would somehow make it so that I could grab it and it would be as small as possible. Since it has to be at least 4 inches in height then under the left fire button I would make a rectangular slit so, I could put my other fingers in there to grab it and use the fire button with my thumb. The stick looks like it may be a little too high for me to grab it while resting my hand on the controller so, I would probably have to make it thicker than 4 inches to make the stick a little bit down inside it. In other words, I would like a controller that uses that button and stick in a box that is designed to be controlled in a similar way as a StarFighter.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

 

Most public scoreboards for the atari 2600 Invalidate your score if you used a genesis pad.

 

If there is a rule in some competition then that is different because you are agreeing to the rules by choosing to compete. If people wanted to they could set up a competition that only allows Heavy Sixer hardware and controllers. If someone competed with other hardware then they would be cheating but a Sega Genesis controller isn't cheating in and of itself. It's just a controller. Since VCS games were designed to use your right hand for the directions and your left hand for the fire button(for right-handed players) then ,in my opinion, the Sega Genesis controller would be an inferior VCS controller because the controls are set up backwards. I don't see how that is like cheat codes. That's more like giving myself a handicap.

Not necessarily. For somebody who learned how to game on the NES control pad, left-handed directional operation and right-handed button mashing feels natural. I am naturally right handed but I generally play arcade cabinet joysticks with my left hand. However, I have received the 9-pin extension cable for my custom arcade Atari joystick, and it just feels natural resting it on my right thigh and operating the joystick in my right hand, the red button with my left. Maybe because I've already gotten used to grabbing the Atari joystick with my right. And my arcade NES controller also feels perfectly natural using left-handed joystick operation. However, much like typing, the use of a modern gamepad, like the highly symmetrical PS2/PS3 dual shock, is largely an ambidextrous operation. Both thumbs get equal usage, albeit they're controlling different gameplay mechanics. At the very least, any option to reverse the joystick / button configuration via adding a second red button so that either hand can be used, or even swapped during gameplay, is a welcome addition. Edited July 29, 2012 by stardust4ever

[Rex Dart]

Use whatever controller you like but it is blasphemy to use a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS. Those games were made for joysticks and paddles and driving controllers, not gamepads. Might as well put a Chevy 350 in a BMW (some do, it's wrong). Convenience or preference is a valid excuse but it's still blasphemy. You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

 

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Use whatever controller you like but it is blasphemy to use a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS. Those games were made for joysticks and paddles and driving controllers, not gamepads. Might as well put a Chevy 350 in a BMW (some do, it's wrong). Convenience or preference is a valid excuse but it's still blasphemy. You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

 

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

 

The 7800, and its two-botton controllers, were designed from the ground up to be backwards compatible. I've studied the Genny controller schematic, and the fact it works on Atari is either pure luck or pure genius. But since I finished building my custom arcade Atari joystick, I am using that now.

[ledzep]

Use whatever controller you like but it is blasphemy to use a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS. Those games were made for joysticks and paddles and driving controllers, not gamepads. Might as well put a Chevy 350 in a BMW (some do, it's wrong). Convenience or preference is a valid excuse but it's still blasphemy. You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

 

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

 

Well, since the question was about the VCS and not the 7800 it doesn't apply. And since Atari made the 7800 and made it backwards-compatible then it wouldn't be considered blasphemous to play VCS games on the 7800 (or the VCS adapter on a 5200, for that matter). But it could be argued that the best way to play 2600 games is on the VCS.

 

I'd say it comes down to what controllers and hardware the games were designed to be played with. I was at the California Extreme show this last weekend and let me tell you, nothing beats playing original games with the original controllers on the original hardware. No thing. Sure, MAME is nice (I plan on building a cabinet eventually), combo games are nice, but the original set-up is the way to go. Same goes for VCS games.

[onthinice]

I use a Genesis controller to save my original controllers for more wear and tear like certain Activision titles.

[Andromeda Stardust]

A member of this forum PM'd me based on comments I made in another thread, saying that the Genesis pad could potentially damage the Atari. He mentioned something about the "daisy-chaining" of input devices like keyboards and joysticks, which I'm sure the Atari 2600 doesn't support. The Atari joystick "floats" the unused connections while the Genesis pad outputs 0v or +5v. Anyway, I have studied the schematics of both the Genesis controller and the Atari pinouts, and I don't see how the Genesis pad could potentially cause damage. He may have had the original Atari VCS hardware mixed up with the Atari 8-bit computer line, and recommended using diodes inline to suppress the +5v "high" signal. I don't really think the diodes are necessary. I've quoted my reply here, but not the original posters PM. It contains my thoughts on why this controller works the way it does, but I forget the actual pin numbers without looking them up.

I don't believe the Atari 2600 had keyboards or any other way to "daisy chain" controllers together. Both Joystick ports have dedicated input pins. Because digital logic circuits require a valid input, "floating" inputs can cause erratic behavior and data errors. As a result, I'm pretty sure there is a resistor connected to VCC in order to tie the inputs high when no button is pressed. The analog inputs from the paddle controllers likely use an ADC to convert the analog signal into digital logic. Since the paddle controllers use an ungrounded pot tied to VCC at one end, this creates a "high" signal which needs an additional resistor to create a proper voltage divider for the analog input. So, it is logical that the analog inputs will be tied low by a resistor connected to ground. The Atari controller port uses 5 digital inputs and 2 analog inputs, then GND and VCC pins.

 

The Genesis controller uses the same pins for GND and VCC, and one signal pin which switches the button outputs. Up and Down are hard wired like the Atari, and the remaining six buttons use the four remaining input pins. I'm not sure of the exact pinout, but it is fortunate that the Genesis controller uses one of the analog inputs as the signal pin. Because this input is tied low by the voltage divider resistor, the 4-bit input selector chip inside the 3-button Genny pad outputs Left and Right on the same pins as the Atari, and the "B" button happens to output to the same pin as the default Atari button. Of the three remaining buttons, I believe they have no effect until the signal pin (one of the analog paddle pins) is set to "high", which does not occur on the Atari system. The remaining analog Paddle pin is held high by the 4-bit input selector chip, as long as the corresponding button is not pressed. Because of this, a small handful of games which can auto detect whether paddles or joysticks are connected, will not function properly with the Genesis controller. The Harmony cart is one of those few that auto-detects the input, but you can force joystick mode by mashing the buttons on startup.

Like I said previously, "I've studied the Genny controller schematic, and the fact it works on Atari is either pure luck or pure genius." Any thoughts on this? Edited July 31, 2012 by stardust4ever

[Schizophretard]

It's Blasphemous if you use it to try to achieve a high score, yes you score higher with it, and it's easier, but if you beat someones high score in a game using a Genesis pad, it's morally wrong to show off that you did because you cheated. It's like using Cheat Codes on a video game

 

It isn't cheating using the controller you are most comfortable with. Some can achieve a high score with a Sega Genesis controller and some would do worse. I would definitely do worse with a Sega Genesis controller. It is near the bottom of my list for use with the VCS. It is a more fair game to allow people to use the controller they are most comfortable with than to have everyone use the same controller.

 

Most public scoreboards for the atari 2600 Invalidate your score if you used a genesis pad.

 

If there is a rule in some competition then that is different because you are agreeing to the rules by choosing to compete. If people wanted to they could set up a competition that only allows Heavy Sixer hardware and controllers. If someone competed with other hardware then they would be cheating but a Sega Genesis controller isn't cheating in and of itself. It's just a controller. Since VCS games were designed to use your right hand for the directions and your left hand for the fire button(for right-handed players) then ,in my opinion, the Sega Genesis controller would be an inferior VCS controller because the controls are set up backwards. I don't see how that is like cheat codes. That's more like giving myself a handicap.

Not necessarily. For somebody who learned how to game on the NES control pad, left-handed directional operation and right-handed button mashing feels natural. I am naturally right handed but I generally play arcade cabinet joysticks with my left hand. However, I have received the 9-pin extension cable for my custom arcade Atari joystick, and it just feels natural resting it on my right thigh and operating the joystick in my right hand, the red button with my left. Maybe because I've already gotten used to grabbing the Atari joystick with my right. And my arcade NES controller also feels perfectly natural using left-handed joystick operation. However, much like typing, the use of a modern gamepad, like the highly symmetrical PS2/PS3 dual shock, is largely an ambidextrous operation. Both thumbs get equal usage, albeit they're controlling different gameplay mechanics. At the very least, any option to reverse the joystick / button configuration via adding a second red button so that either hand can be used, or even swapped during gameplay, is a welcome addition.

 

I learned how to game on both the NES and VCS. On the NES, the games feel like they were designed to require faster firing than movement. On the VCS, the games feel like they were designed to require faster movement than firing. If an NES type controller was designed for the VCS it would feel backwards and if a VCS type controller was designed for the NES it would feel backwards. When I play VCS I have to have the fire button on the left. When my left-handed wife plays the VCS she has to have the fire button on the right and she only grew up with game pads. There were left-handed adapters for the VCS because of this.

 

Anyway, some people are right-handed, some are left-handed, some are ambidextrous, some are missing fingers, some have big hands, some have small hands, some have short fingers, some have long fingers,.... My point is that if it is cheating to use different controllers then it is cheating to use different hands. If a competition is set up to use a specific controller for a game then it isn't about who is best at just the game but who is also best at that controller. If a competition is set up to allow players to use the controller they play best with then it is just about who is best at the game.

[SlowCoder]

I think it's fine to use what you want to play with, as long as there's no competition. But in a sanctioned competition, I think it should always be required to play with original, 1st party hardware, no matter what console you're talking about.

 

I love the Slik Stik. The short throw is great for twitch games. But I can just about as easily play with the CX40. The CX10, while a beautiful piece of art, simply has too much throw for my comfort. I've used the Genesis controller a couple of times, but it just doesn't feel right on a 2600.

[Rex Dart]

You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

 

Well, since the question was about the VCS and not the 7800 it doesn't apply. And since Atari made the 7800 and made it backwards-compatible then it wouldn't be considered blasphemous to play VCS games on the 7800 (or the VCS adapter on a 5200, for that matter).

 

I don't see how it doesn't apply. We're talking about playing VCS games with unintended hardware, no? How's that different than a sega gamepad, or replacement power supply, or LCD TV, or even one of those RF-to-RCA adapters most of us use instead of screw-on terminals?

[ledzep]

You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

 

Well, since the question was about the VCS and not the 7800 it doesn't apply. And since Atari made the 7800 and made it backwards-compatible then it wouldn't be considered blasphemous to play VCS games on the 7800 (or the VCS adapter on a 5200, for that matter).

 

I don't see how it doesn't apply. We're talking about playing VCS games with unintended hardware, no? How's that different than a sega gamepad, or replacement power supply, or LCD TV, or even one of those RF-to-RCA adapters most of us use instead of screw-on terminals?

 

Not quite. The question was specifically about the Genesis/Megadrive controller. Those are gamepads, not joysticks or paddles (or driving controllers) like the original VCS games were designed to be played with. Also, they weren't made or offered by Atari for the VCS. So, blasphemy.

 

There is also a difference between what you are forced to use and what you prefer to use. So, if you only have a modern flatscreen TV without screw-on antenna terminals then you must find a way to make the VCS connect to it. Unless you feel like tracking down an old SD CRT TV. Same goes for RCA or coax vs. the original flat lead switchbox connection. And if you only have modded gamepads to use then use them, that's better than not playing the games at all. But you might as well be playing Smoke On The Water on a violin instead of an electric guitar.

 

It is optimal to use the original hardware (pristine or refurbished/repaired) vs. some replacement whether that replacement was supplied by Atari (VCS games on a 7800) or not (aftermarket/modded controllers, emulators). If you can't, you can't. But if you can then you should. Or blaspheme, it's up to you, haahahaa. In my case, I have finally found a Sears Tele-Games version of the VCS. I will get it modded for RCA connectors (so that I can play it on any TV) and play it on my 36" Sony HD CRT. With original controllers. But I'll also play the hacked Missile Command that accepts a trackball.

[Schizophretard]

You get these games presumably to run them the way they were meant to be run. That means original hardware and controllers.

Is my 7800 blasphemous? VCS games weren't written with it in mind.

 

Well, since the question was about the VCS and not the 7800 it doesn't apply. And since Atari made the 7800 and made it backwards-compatible then it wouldn't be considered blasphemous to play VCS games on the 7800 (or the VCS adapter on a 5200, for that matter).

 

I don't see how it doesn't apply. We're talking about playing VCS games with unintended hardware, no? How's that different than a sega gamepad, or replacement power supply, or LCD TV, or even one of those RF-to-RCA adapters most of us use instead of screw-on terminals?

 

Not quite. The question was specifically about the Genesis/Megadrive controller. Those are gamepads, not joysticks or paddles (or driving controllers) like the original VCS games were designed to be played with. Also, they weren't made or offered by Atari for the VCS. So, blasphemy.

 

There is also a difference between what you are forced to use and what you prefer to use. So, if you only have a modern flatscreen TV without screw-on antenna terminals then you must find a way to make the VCS connect to it. Unless you feel like tracking down an old SD CRT TV. Same goes for RCA or coax vs. the original flat lead switchbox connection. And if you only have modded gamepads to use then use them, that's better than not playing the games at all. But you might as well be playing Smoke On The Water on a violin instead of an electric guitar.

 

It is optimal to use the original hardware (pristine or refurbished/repaired) vs. some replacement whether that replacement was supplied by Atari (VCS games on a 7800) or not (aftermarket/modded controllers, emulators). If you can't, you can't. But if you can then you should. Or blaspheme, it's up to you, haahahaa. In my case, I have finally found a Sears Tele-Games version of the VCS. I will get it modded for RCA connectors (so that I can play it on any TV) and play it on my 36" Sony HD CRT. With original controllers. But I'll also play the hacked Missile Command that accepts a trackball.

 

What about games that weren't offered by Atari for the VCS?