Trebor Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Just a quick update in case anyone else is looking at it... I have completed the RGB to Hex conversions for all color values and formatted to the "MESS" format: "0x??,0x??,0x??". My next step is figuring out how to get the values (Which I placed each in an individual cell inside an Excel spreadsheet) without having to copy and paste all of them, while making sure I don't screw up the formatting/layout of the a7800.c file so it will compile correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Moment of truth....I completed bringing all the values over to the 7800.c source. I then compiled MESS from 0.147s to build the executable. The results are fantastic. Here is a series of screenshots to better illustrate it with a breakdown - HLSL has been turned on with some NTSC features added. Each set follows the same pattern: 01. NO tint/hue adjustment 02. 25% Less Red --> 03. 25% More Red --> 04. 25% Less Green --> 05. 25% More Green The difference between the sets are 100% Saturation (Default), 75% Less Saturation, 25 Less Saturation. Think of More/Less Red as turning the "Tint/Hue" knob on a traditional TV. Saturation is typically named the "Color" knob on a television. *These are all from the same -corrected- NTSC color generated palette* 100% Saturation 75% Saturation 50% Saturation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) From a distance... x2... Edited October 26, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Just a few more Bentley shots showing the base colors with hlsl turned on under MESS with the corrected palette changing 25% less to 25% more deltas: Contrast: Brightness: Gamma: Edited October 26, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) Same palette - two different displays (Dell Latitude E6410 laptop screen & NEC LCD 223WXM) - one looks great on one display and only ok on the other and vice-versa. A few tweaks to Contrast and Hue and you can get it right for either display with the correct base palette: Edited October 26, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Some HQ screens from MESS with the new palette hlsl turned with tweaks from default to look best on the current display I am using to give a better idea of how close to a TV this actual looks now (Granted it is hoping your current viewing display is somewhat similar to mine. Remember, contrast, brightness, gamma and even strength/power of green, red, or and blue is all possible, but base (NTSC) palette is the same: My intent is to put together a step by step as straight-forward and easy as possible document to get MESS up and running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaGtGruff Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Stella has implemented blargg NTSC effects though...Far superior (No fixed palette) and the right way to obtain colors. It gives the user the flexibility to manipulate all or at least many of the factors which can impact color and display including but not limited to: tint/hue, color/saturation, brightness, and contrast. Just a note-- I played around with the TV effects in Stella (3.7.3), and while they do let you tweak the palette like on a TV by fiddling with the brightness, contrast, and hue, the palette you start with still makes a difference. Edited October 28, 2012 by SeaGtGruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Just a note-- I played around with the TV effects in Stella (3.7.3), and while they do let you tweak the palette like on a TV by fiddling with the brightness, contrast, and hue, the palette you start with still makes a difference. Absolutely agree, SGG. That is my point with MESS and the reason for the need of the palette illustrated above. While still being able to tweak brightness, contrast, hue, etc., if a palette base is being used and is incorrect (Not within the realm of possible NTSC color combinations), then tweaking tint for example will only go so far and throw the other colors off since they are all influenced by that one adjustment (Hue level). Full Blargg implementation does not work with or use a palette at all though. Every color is generated through an NTSC color generator (Calculated through math equations with no palette as a reference). More about it here: http://slack.net/~ant/libs/ntsc.html While Blargg libraries can allow for the use of an RGB palette, the ideal scenario is no palette and let the math play out. Similar to some older arcade games where there is no sound chips to dump and the music is produced via discrete circuits. Sure you can capture a sample and apply some equalization against bass and treble among other things, but the ideal would be to have the discrete sound code written and emulated fully. Honestly, I do not know if Stella with Blargg effects turned on is still referencing a palette - hopefully, it is not. The other emulators I mentioned do not reference a palette. Either way, thanks for your work as there may be some whose machine cannot handle Blargg effects turned on with consistent frame rates, or who just perfer to have and use a fixed palette. And if Stella is still using a palette base with Blargg effects, then even more so it is appreciated. Edited October 28, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+stephena Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Stella does in fact still use a base palette, so the adjustments will only get you so far. It has already been requested to completely generate colour info from Blargg, and it is on the TODO list. The reason I didn't add it yet is (TBH) that I don't fully understand the code. And I don't want to add it until I understand how to properly use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 Stella does in fact still use a base palette, so the adjustments will only get you so far. It has already been requested to completely generate colour info from Blargg, and it is on the TODO list. The reason I didn't add it yet is (TBH) that I don't fully understand the code. And I don't want to add it until I understand how to properly use it. Cool...Thanks for clearing that up...Looking forward to full NTSC color generation down the road with Stella... Until then, and again extra thanks and appreciation to SGG for bring the palette over to be useful to Stella, hopefully it is seen as an improvement over the previous offerings, or at least a just as good alternative choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Woo-Hoo...MESS 0.142u2 'official' has been released with the updated palette. You can download it here: http://messui.the-chronicles.org/ Over the next couple of weeks I will be focusing on trying to get a setup/how to document out with step-by-step picture guide. In the meantime, for those familiar with MESS or just looking for some assistance here are a few things: 1. First, the BIOS files. You place them in the roms folder within the main folder MESS executable is stored in. Do not unzip them. Keep them exactly as posted. 2. Game ROMS can be stored in the same folder as the BIOS, under the ROMS folder. 3. You can create a mess.ini (configuration file), by going to a command prompt and once located in the directory-folder of MESS, type the command (minus quotes) "mess -cc" 4. Artwork files used for screen effects with or without hlsl turned on are stored in the 'artwork' folder as a sub-folder from where the mess executable is stored (Similar to the 'roms' folder). 5. Values inside the mess.ini files that are 0 (zeros) or 1 (ones), stipulate turned off (0), or turned on (1). 6. You edit the mess.ini file with Notepad. Just open the mess.ini file with notepad and it is very easy to scroll through the options to decide what to leave on or off. To make things simpler I am attaching a file which contain all the little extra mentioned above which should simply be unzipped to the folder containing the mess executable(s) you downloaded. It also contains a 'docs' folder with explanation on the options found within the mess.ini file (Same as mame.ini and what exactly they do) with some other reference material as well. MESSAdditional.zip The executables you download from the link provided earlier will contain two binaries: mess.exe messui.exe One contains a GUI (messui.exe) the other you can simply double click (mess.exe) and with the files provided in the additional link posted to this thread will launch the 7800 system. 'Tab' brings up options. 'Enter' selects an option, 'Esc' goes back a screen, or exits a specific option. Arrow keys 'left-right' toggles an option. Arrow keys 'up-down' goes to the next field(s) in a set of options. I prefer not to use messui.exe and just stick with mess.exe, but you decide what is best. This is just a very crude quick setup, hoping to some something much more detailed oriented over the next few week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) For those needing/looking for the same palette but less saturated, please see the attached for the ProSystem emulator. First capture is REALNTSC at full RGB saturation, the next brings it down to 75% and then 50%. The same can be achieved in MESS (0.142u2 or newer) by going to the menu options (Tab key while the emulator is running), go down to slider controls, and change saturation from 1.00 to 0.75 or 0.50. Captures are from ProSystem: Since the ProSystem emulator currently does not offer and adjustments to the palette, please feel free to request a specific tweak (i.e. more/less contrast, brightness, saturation)...MESS offers those tweaks as basic plus a lot more with HLSL enabled. I don't want to short those users looking to tweak the palette under ProSystem, but can't due to the emulators video limitations. EDIT: Added 50% Saturation choice. REALNTSC_Palettes.zip Edited November 4, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 There is a 3 degree miscalculation respecting the hue beginning point for the last palette (set(s)). As noted previously, there are no handpicked or manipulated colors and values. The 3 degree miscalculation impacts the entire palette. For some, depending on eye, display, and game colors utilized, you may not notice much if any change from the previous batch; however, there is - IMHO, some very noticeable changes in various circumstances. Regardless, respecting the 'base' palette colors, it is a necessary measure as the goal here is accuracy above easy or personal preference and taste. It may sound like 'the boy who cried wolf', but this batch is the last definitive NTSC palettes for the Atari 7800. I am attaching the correct(ed) NTSC palette here with 6 varieties. Each palette has the same base values with only saturation changed. NTSC100, NTSC090, NTSC080, NSTC070, NTSC060, NTSC050. The three digit number after 'NTSC' represents the saturation percentage (100% thru 50%). MESS will take quite some time to update again as there is a considerable amount work to do in order to change the palette correctly. I am working on that as time permits. In the meantime, here are some captures from ProSystem of the palettes in-game, displayed in descending saturation order, and enjoy the attach files, if desired, to use under ProSystem: Finally, this is how the base palette appears under the Color Demo ROM for the 7800: Here are the palettes: NTSC_Palettes_Distro.zip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Defender_2600 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 This is tremendously accurate and very useful! Thank you very much 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Some more captures from NTSC100 thru NTSC50 for the weekend: Any specific request either with the captures or palette adjustments (saturation, brightness, contrast level(s)), just ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Some more captures: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 (edited) Now with the correct standard in place (NTSC100.pal) in addition to the different saturation levels (aka 'Color' adjustment on a TV), in this post will be the equivalent of turning the hue/tine knob to either more red or green strengths. The following palette files are zip attached. NTSC100_R50 NTSC100_R40 NTSC100_R30 NTSC100_R20 NTSC100_R10 NTSC100 NTSC100_G10 NTSC100_G20 NTSC100_G30 NTSC100_G40 NTSC100_G50 NTSC100 again is the standard and non-biased which was posted previously along with various saturation levels and is here again along with red and green hue/tint adjustments from 10-50%. Some televisions may actually have these 'pushes' more like 3-30%, or on the other side 20-100% of a turn or notch. Regardless, as mentioned earlier, the possibilities and different television options are nearly endless. Factors such as Color Gamut and the percentage offerings on both traditional TV's (~70%) and modern displays (Which can vary tremendously - Some can be as poor as 40% others well over 100%) will impact your experience as well. As always, none of the colors are hand picked or manually adjusted. The entire palette is calculated. The red and green pushes affect the entire color palette as it would occur with a television display. The real solution, as I will continue encouraging, is NTSC color generation offered in the emulator itself with the basic adjustments of color/saturation, tint/hue, contrast, brightness. Artifacting and bleeding would also be great. Regardless, NTSC100.pal is the best objective, without color bias, and full saturation palette as posted previously. The other files offer the red and green tint/hue pushes people will likely be performing to adjust colors to their liking on their particular display. The following screenshots, in sets of three, follow this order: NTSC100 NTSC100_G50 NTSC100_R50 Here is what the above palettes look like under the Color Demo: Here are all the hue-tint adjusted palettes: NTSC_Palettes_Hue_Adj_Distro.zip Any request to combine a particular saturation and hue/tint adjustment (I.E. NTSC070 with a G20 or say a R30) is more than welcomed. Just ask, and I'll be happy to post it. Edited November 15, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinMos3 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Your palettes look very much like the real thing. Awesome work. Been meaning to ask if you would mind doing one with the brightness turned up a bit. I'd say that I like my TV is adjusted somewhere between your NTSC100 and NTSC_R50 with a bit more brightness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Your palettes look very much like the real thing. Awesome work. Been meaning to ask if you would mind doing one with the brightness turned up a bit. I'd say that I like my TV is adjusted somewhere between your NTSC100 and NTSC_R50 with a bit more brightness. So, you're thinking NTSC100_R20 or NTSC100_R30, and are you sure your TV is configured with more brightness, or is it more contrast, or saturation? I'll give you six palettes and we will go from there: NTSC100_R20 +20% More Brightness NTSC100_R20 +20% More Contrast NTSC100_R20 +20% More Saturation NTSC100_R30 +20% More Brightness NTSC100_R30 +20% More Contrast NTSC100_R30 +20% More Saturation For screenshots of the above palettes, here are Pole Position II and Dig Dug, since those are two of the most common games and give a good color reference display. I believe I have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but just as a reminder, screenshots appear duller and dimmer to an extent than a full screen display. There will be more brightness, contrast, or/and perhaps even further saturation when you see the palette in action full screen. The screenshots follow the order of the palette changes listed above: Here are the palette files: NTSC100_R20_Plus20-Variations.zipNTSC100_R30_Plus20-Variations.zip Edited November 16, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinMos3 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Thanks! The R30 +contrast is pretty much it I think. I will sometimes adjust it more like the R40 0r R50, depending on the game. In general, I keep it adjusted so that the soil in Commando looks brown, without making other games, systems, or TV shows look funky. If playing Ikari Warriors, I sometimes tweak it more like the R50 so that the ground looks more brown, but it's kinda hard to get brown dirt in that game without making other games look a bit off. The +20 brightness is definitely too bright. Maybe +5 would look good, but after seeing the effect of adding +20 contrast, I'm thinking that having both contrast & brightness might make it too bright. I think the options you've shared so far will cover pretty much any setting that I typically use. Maybe the addition of a R40+contrast and a R50+contrast would finish rounding it out for me. Thanks again. These palette options are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Thanks! The R30 +contrast is pretty much it I think. I will sometimes adjust it more like the R40 0r R50, depending on the game. In general, I keep it adjusted so that the soil in Commando looks brown, without making other games, systems, or TV shows look funky. If playing Ikari Warriors, I sometimes tweak it more like the R50 so that the ground looks more brown, but it's kinda hard to get brown dirt in that game without making other games look a bit off. The +20 brightness is definitely too bright. Maybe +5 would look good, but after seeing the effect of adding +20 contrast, I'm thinking that having both contrast & brightness might make it too bright. I think the options you've shared so far will cover pretty much any setting that I typically use. Maybe the addition of a R40+contrast and a R50+contrast would finish rounding it out for me. Thanks again. These palette options are great. 100% agree on the brown Commando soil issue. That is why with the composite mods and even with RF, if your TV is set with 'no bias' the ground is more green than brown. The browner you try to make the ground, the more you are skewing red for the entire palette. It will look great for Commando, but really most other colors are ‘off’ in many other games as well as television viewing. Having these calculated NTSC palettes really helps you see that effect as it would occur on a regular television. You can hand manipulate the palette to just change browns, greens or whatever colors, but that is not accurately representing what an Atari 7800 or TV output would produce. Attached are NTSC100_R40-CONTRAST20 & NTSC100_R50-CONTRAST20 along with the standard contrast ones. NTSC100_R40_Variations.zipNTSC100_R50_Variations.zip Edited November 16, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Just as a little more eye candy and really showing what you can pull off under MESS. Here is the NTSC100 correct/accurate palette and then changing TV settings via HLSL effects. The settings I enabled are a very strong red push, scanlines, curved screen, contrast and saturation turned up a bit - click on the picture to see it in its full NTSC television glory: Hoping down the road ProSystem will offer at least some of these fantastic adjustments. No need for numerous palettes. Just the correct base palette non-bias settings and then make all changes via the emulator settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) Just can't win... Well, proper color gamut needs to be factored in...Still a WIP with the palettes, and this time it will be final...May be several weeks until the next (and final) update. Edited November 22, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) One little note regarding HLSL effects under MESS....If you are having trouble with it either not working or not displaying properly, even if your configuration files are correctly setup...Make sure you have Direct X 9.0c installed. Get it here: http://download.cnet.com/Microsoft-DirectX-Redistributable-June-2010/3000-2121_4-10176490.html?tag=bc If you try one of the web-based Microsoft links and have a newer version installed in won't run through the necessary routines. It has been noticed that the Redistributable (full direct x 9.0c download(s)) work best - Such as the one in the above link. Even if you already have a later version installed - still make sure the above is installed. You can re-install a newer version - if necessary. However, there are specific files in the above version that seem to fix many problems for some people who have issues getting HLSL to work properly... My wife's laptop included Edited November 22, 2012 by Trebor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 For documented archival purposes and to prevent confusion, the last and final update for proper NTSC colors on the a7800 is here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/205831-definitive-ntsc-palettes-finalized-the-new-62/ The previous palettes offered within this thread can be considered obsolete and less accurate. Nonetheless, they still can certainly be utilized. However, the new and final palettes (62 of them) in the linked thread are far more accurate - actually as accurate as possible without NTSC generation with the emulator itself, and offer better options regarding tint/hue adjustments, contrast, and saturation levels than the ones contained in the posts within this thread. Hope you enjoy them! If you desire something more (I.E. saturation, contrast, etc.) feel free to ask in the above thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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