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YOU DECIDE....the integrity of the HSC


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#51 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:02 PM

I admit, Stan.
I used Save States constantly when I was playing Atari Games for the first times on my emulator. Also, some unfair advantages - slow-motion (framerate below 60 FPS) and load states.


Note guys, this is the ONLY time he does this. Hahahahaah. Really? Just then? Come on man, we're all on to you at this point. And again, you're still ducking the question about the 7800 HSC. Shit's going down man behind the scenes, the reckoning is finally upon you oyamafamily. I will get the last huehuehuehuehuehuehuehuehue.

#52 oyamafamily OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:09 PM

Stan and Nikon, I solved to describe 2 cases which involved preparation to submit huge scores on 7800 HSC:

1) Midnight Mutants (played on Game 16 of Season 5)
Firstly, I watched the gameplay on Youtube to study the walkthrough. Link to see videos to be watched:
http://www.youtube.c...t mutants atari
Then, I went to AtariAge Forums > Atari 7800 > 7800 High Score Club > 7800 HSC Season 4 - Game 14 *Midnight Mutants*.
On this topic, I read Mord's recommendations and I found the link to download the Save States Files from Prosystem which Mord did. I took this opportunity to use specific hints to defeat 3 bosses, especially Dr. Evil (Final Boss). On Prosystem Emulator, I opened mm-boss 3 savegame just for practicing; then I used Save and Load States periodically until reaching the endpoint of this game. After defeating Dr. Evil, I studied the last steps before saving Grampa (the mandatory item which I had to collect is the pumpkin). I followed these procedures before playing AND completing Midinight Mutants on gameplays valid to HSC. BIG THANKS TO MORD FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION AND ADVICES - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!

2) Xenophobe (played on Game 16 of Season 5 - 7800 HSC / Bonus Challenge on LYNX HSC 2012 Round 11)

I created 7800 Xenophobe Maps drawing all the 9 Space Stations Layout in order to study and locate the important items: weapons (LP = laser pistol, LR = lightning rifle and PG = poofer gun), GR = grenade, 50-point health itens (H) and the self-destruction machine (SDM).
When I was drawing the map, I included the item which I avoided getting - PH = Phaser, the less effective weapon. During this 'homework', I played 7800 Xenophobe on Prosystem Emulator an
d used Save / Load States and Pause features until completing Space Station 9. After following these procedures, I played normally to submit my Xenophobe Scores on 7800 HSC WITH the map on Advanced Setting. On LYNX HSC 2012 Round 11 (Xenophobe), I took this opportunity to play again the 7800 version on Default Difficulty (Standard) just to follow this rule in terms of difficulty.

EDIT: Here are 7800 Xenophobe Maps (Page 1) which I have just scanned on my multi-functional printer.

7800 xenophobe maps 1.png

Edited by oyamafamily, Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:28 PM.


#53 oyamafamily OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:26 PM

Here is the second page of 7800 Xenophobe Maps which I have just scanned.
7800 xenophobe maps 2.png

#54 oyamafamily OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 PM

And I solved to tell 3 cases which involve my 'huge' curiosities to see the endings and credits on 7800 games - Fatal Run, Planet Smashers and Ikari Warriors. One of 3 games we played on 7800 HSC recently.

1) Fatal Run: Intentionally, I used the code to skip the first 28 levels, entering TURTLE on the opening screen. I practiced and viewed the last 4 levels and I used Save State at the moment I reached the Rocket Launch Site (Final of Level 32). Then, I view the ending which shows the Rocket Launch, hit Left Button to make 'Game Over' and 'High Scores' screens appear, and I waited for the Demonstration Mode to see the credits which I posted on 7800 HSC - Game 18 of Season 5.

2) Planet Smashers: I played on Easy Difficulty Level (which is Default) and periodically I used Save and Load States until reaching the Final Boss (the 7th Boss), in order to see what happens after destroying it. When I saw the closing of this game, I read the ending text which started with "Congratulations, Star Warrior!!" and finished with the annoucement of Alien Brigade Cartrige for your Atari 7800 and the programmer credits applied to Planet Smashers.

3) Ikari Warriors: Intentionally, I selected Novice Difficulty / One Player when I was trying on the first time some weeks ago (as I know, against the 7800 HSC Rules in terms of Difficulty which must be Default, which is Intermediate in this case). During the gameplay, I used the same form of cheating utilized on Planet Smashers until approaching the Colonel, the endpoint of this game. After reaching and rescuing the Colonel, I read the message with the word 'Congratulations' and the credits. I run this procedure in order to know the operational part of this game.

Edited by oyamafamily, Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 PM.


#55 Chuck D. Head OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:57 PM

To be perfectly clear: Oyama, are you saying you used these methods to "practice" or did you use them during the actual games you posted scores for?

#56 Gorfy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:39 PM

I think there needs to be a ruling about whether or not it is acceptable to use save states and similar techniques even for practice.

#57 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:31 PM

To be perfectly clear: Oyama, are you saying you used these methods to "practice" or did you use them during the actual games you posted scores for?


Do we even need to ask that question? I think it's pretty clear, he's admitting he's been cheating without saying it. And I agree with Gorfy above, when I play my REAL SYSTEM I certainly can't use any measure of cheats to practice!

#58 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:32 PM

Stan and Nikon, I solved to describe 2 cases which involved preparation to submit huge scores on 7800 HSC:

1) Midnight Mutants (played on Game 16 of Season 5)
Firstly, I watched the gameplay on Youtube to study the walkthrough. Link to see videos to be watched:
http://www.youtube.c...t mutants atari
Then, I went to AtariAge Forums > Atari 7800 > 7800 High Score Club > 7800 HSC Season 4 - Game 14 *Midnight Mutants*.
On this topic, I read Mord's recommendations and I found the link to download the Save States Files from Prosystem which Mord did. I took this opportunity to use specific hints to defeat 3 bosses, especially Dr. Evil (Final Boss). On Prosystem Emulator, I opened mm-boss 3 savegame just for practicing; then I used Save and Load States periodically until reaching the endpoint of this game. After defeating Dr. Evil, I studied the last steps before saving Grampa (the mandatory item which I had to collect is the pumpkin). I followed these procedures before playing AND completing Midinight Mutants on gameplays valid to HSC. BIG THANKS TO MORD FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION AND ADVICES - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!

2) Xenophobe (played on Game 16 of Season 5 - 7800 HSC / Bonus Challenge on LYNX HSC 2012 Round 11)

I created 7800 Xenophobe Maps drawing all the 9 Space Stations Layout in order to study and locate the important items: weapons (LP = laser pistol, LR = lightning rifle and PG = poofer gun), GR = grenade, 50-point health itens (H) and the self-destruction machine (SDM).
When I was drawing the map, I included the item which I avoided getting - PH = Phaser, the less effective weapon. During this 'homework', I played 7800 Xenophobe on Prosystem Emulator an
d used Save / Load States and Pause features until completing Space Station 9. After following these procedures, I played normally to submit my Xenophobe Scores on 7800 HSC WITH the map on Advanced Setting. On LYNX HSC 2012 Round 11 (Xenophobe), I took this opportunity to play again the 7800 version on Default Difficulty (Standard) just to follow this rule in terms of difficulty.


What the hell does any of this have to do with you CHEATING? You just keep dodging the question man. And you basically just admitted in your "cases" that you cheated but not really sort of. Kick this guy out already.

#59 NIKON OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:37 PM

One question Oyamafamily...are you a Desembargador??? You seem to know English real well although your syntax is a bit off.

Edited by NIKON, Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:37 PM.


#60 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:40 PM

Don't do it NIKON, let's keep this thread from going to obscure references to judicial bodies and focus on the issue, oyama is slowly admitting to us that he's been cheating in this HSC, and probably every other one he's participated in.

#61 NIKON OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:48 PM

Here is one thing that will solve this question once and for all...a video of oyama's game play...a tube catcher is free and has onscreen recording...you tube is free and allows 15 min time limit...but video can be any size and you can post as many as you want..

OR

Play all the games on MESS (except Xenophobe..it flickers like crazy) and MESS has recording capabilities in .inp and .avi format..but the .avi format is raw uncompressed data and 1 min of game play eats up almost 1 gig of space on your hard drive..but tube catcher can compress the video.

If the video needs to be split up into various chunks.. Windows has movie maker for that

All of the above programs are FREE!!!!! and only take a minimal amount of effort to use.

Want to be the record holder...then this is part of it...everyone wants proof...not words...honor has been questioned and there is only ONE solution...PROOF!!!!

So give it already and lets be done with this matter once and for all.

I can even make a video of how to make a video if you so desire..but it will be in parts...because it will be longer than 15 mins.

Lets here it from the community .

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Edited by NIKON, Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:51 PM.


#62 NIKON OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:50 PM

Don't do it NIKON, let's keep this thread from going to obscure references to judicial bodies and focus on the issue, oyama is slowly admitting to us that he's been cheating in this HSC, and probably every other one he's participated in.


its a simple yes / no question... thats all

Edited by NIKON, Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:50 PM.


#63 LidLikesIntellivision OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:56 PM

Here is one thing that will solve this question once and for all...a video of oyama's game play...a tube catcher is free and has onscreen recording...you tube is free and allows 15 min time limit...but video can be any size and you can post as many as you want..

OR

Play all the games on MESS (except Xenophobe..it flickers like crazy) and MESS has recording capabilities in .inp and .avi format..but the .avi format is raw uncompressed data and 1 min of game play eats up almost 1 gig of space on your hard drive..but tube catcher can compress the video.

If the video needs to be split up into various chunks.. Windows has movie maker for that

All of the above programs are FREE!!!!! and only take a minimal amount of effort to use.

Want to be the record holder...then this is part of it...everyone wants proof...not words...honor has been questioned and there is only ONE solution...PROOF!!!!

So give it already and lets be done with this matter once and for all.

[font=comic sans ms']I can even make a video of how to make a video if you so desire..but it will be in parts...because it will be longer than 15 mins.[/font]

[font=comic sans ms']Lets here it from the community .[/font]

[font=comic sans ms']THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE[/font]

I totally agree.At this point a video showing oyama's game play is necessary.

#64 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:02 PM

Lid, why don't you go find his house and see if he's a real guy even. Probably some 13-year-old cheater.

#65 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:04 PM

I think there needs to be a ruling about whether or not it is acceptable to use save states and similar techniques even for practice.

I don't do that (for 99% of games we play here I have them on hardware and would never want to emmulate), but I really don't care if anyone does. I don't think it is cheating to do that for practice. If you outlaw that, then outlaw Strategy wiki, youtube playthoughs, reading tips and tricks, playing on the harder or easier difficulty for practice, etc. Whatever anyone wants to do to get better doesn't matter to me, just so long as they play legit when they submit a score.

#66 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:06 PM

Lid, why don't you go find his house and see if he's a real guy even. Probably some 13-year-old cheater.

Yeah, Brazil is only, what, the 5th largest country in the world by area and by population. He's probably just up the road a few thousand kilometres. :)

#67 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:18 PM

I don't do that (for 99% of games we play here I have them on hardware and would never want to emmulate), but I really don't care if anyone does. I don't think it is cheating to do that for practice. If you outlaw that, then outlaw Strategy wiki, youtube playthoughs, reading tips and tricks, playing on the harder or easier difficulty for practice, etc. Whatever anyone wants to do to get better doesn't matter to me, just so long as they play legit when they submit a score.


Yeah it is, because it has NOTHING to do with actual gameplay. Reading a walkthrough or learning tips about how to actually play is much, much different than manipulating the game to increase scores. Saying that helps you play better is totally off, how does it? Hey, I can play Asteroids better because when I slow it down I can watch the asteroids REAL slow and it helps me shoot them better when they move faster IRL. What? It's one thing to read a walkthrough or watch a play through, it's another to play it yourself. And it's something else entirely when you CHEAT and call it practice.

#68 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 PM

Yeah, Brazil is only, what, the 5th largest country in the world by area and by population. He's probably just up the road a few thousand kilometres. :)


Oh, won't be that hard. Come on now. All you have to do is find someone calling out:

WHOO HOO HOO ROLLED HOO HOO WHOO WHOO HOO!!!!!!My tip this is, if you press button gun shoot then save state and you get milliones points and win the game. Frostbite is my favortie game to cheat on, I mean play. whoo hoo

Edited by Stan, Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 PM.


#69 Atarifever OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:52 AM

Yeah it is, because it has NOTHING to do with actual gameplay. Reading a walkthrough or learning tips about how to actually play is much, much different than manipulating the game to increase scores. Saying that helps you play better is totally off, how does it?

It lets you learn the game at a slower speed, which lets you formulate strategies for playing normally. I do it on hardware in a way. I practice DK and DK Jr. at the higher levels, because having to waste time on the earlier levels wastes valuable practice time. I sucked at Moon Cresta until I started to set it to easy to practice. Then I figured out the enemy "patterns," which I was too busy dying to figure out on normal, and can now regularly finish one or two complete sets on normal. Playing E.T. or Adventure on 2600, you can really get the hang of the game at the simple difficulties, which is necessary if you are to have any chance at the higher levels.

All practicing on an emmulator would be doing is letting you formulate strategies and plans for the real thing. It's essentially adding another difficulty setting. I don't even do anything with the settings in emulator when I do use it, so I have no idea what Oyama and the rest of you are even talking about with regards to "slowing things down," but I don't see how doing so in practice would negate scores played legit.

And of course the big question is, if we are having this much trouble just enforcing "don't cheat when you play," and have only recently started to think about making photos a requirement, how in the world would you suggest one enforces what someone does to practice?

#70 Gorfy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:13 AM

Atarifever presents some key questions:

1. Does the use of extraordinary measures to practice, such as save states and slo-mo that aren't available via the original hardware, constitute an unfair advantage over those who use primarily hardware?

2. If so, should the HSC rules be amended to forbid the use of such measures in practice as well as in hsc play?

3. How can such a rule be enforced?

Maybe we can arrange to get the hsc moderators and players to meet in the chat room at a specific time/date to discuss these and related issues?

#71 VectorGamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:31 AM

Atarifever presents some key questions:

1. Does the use of extraordinary measures to practice, such as save states and slo-mo that aren't available via the original hardware, constitute an unfair advantage over those who use primarily hardware?

2. If so, should the HSC rules be amended to forbid the use of such measures in practice as well as in hsc play?

3. How can such a rule be enforced?

Maybe we can arrange to get the hsc moderators and players to meet in the chat room at a specific time/date to discuss these and related issues?


It's moot. The HSC is an honor system and you would never be able to prove if someone is practicing with save states. Practicing with save states wouldn't be a crime anyway. Submitting a score using save states would. But how will you ever know?

#72 NIKON OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:37 AM

if there is a season 6 for the HSC..............I am going to submit a video with every game I play...MESS has a cool feature that records your game play and makes a .inp file.

#73 Chuck D. Head OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:41 AM

It's moot. The HSC is an honor system and you would never be able to prove if someone is practicing with save states. Practicing with save states wouldn't be a crime anyway. Submitting a score using save states would. But how will you ever know?

It is an honor system, and for my part, I can just use the "ignore" feature to mostly disregard the cheater. But I am not the guy sitting at #2 or #3 because of said cheater. I guess it is up to the HSC moderator to decide whether to include the scores in the future.

#74 NE146 ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:43 AM

It's moot. The HSC is an honor system and you would never be able to prove if someone is practicing with save states. Practicing with save states wouldn't be a crime anyway. Submitting a score using save states would. But how will you ever know?


You wouldn't. The whole point of these friendly competitions is pure honor system. You expect everyone is making a legitimate go on the game, and why shouldn't you if you're participating? :).

Anybody can use emulators, save states, or slow gameplay to play a perfect game of Ms. Pacman forever until they reach 500,000 points. But the whole point of doing these things is having fun and seeing how well you can do with a legit straight up play. You simply do not expect anyone to actually "cheat" because again, "why" would you even bother? To show off your fake high score in a friendly competition? That's some sad stuff man.. :lol:

#75 Stan OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:43 AM

It lets you learn the game at a slower speed, which lets you formulate strategies for playing normally. I do it on hardware in a way. I practice DK and DK Jr. at the higher levels, because having to waste time on the earlier levels wastes valuable practice time. I sucked at Moon Cresta until I started to set it to easy to practice. Then I figured out the enemy "patterns," which I was too busy dying to figure out on normal, and can now regularly finish one or two complete sets on normal. Playing E.T. or Adventure on 2600, you can really get the hang of the game at the simple difficulties, which is necessary if you are to have any chance at the higher levels.

All practicing on an emmulator would be doing is letting you formulate strategies and plans for the real thing. It's essentially adding another difficulty setting. I don't even do anything with the settings in emulator when I do use it, so I have no idea what Oyama and the rest of you are even talking about with regards to "slowing things down," but I don't see how doing so in practice would negate scores played legit.

And of course the big question is, if we are having this much trouble just enforcing "don't cheat when you play," and have only recently started to think about making photos a requirement, how in the world would you suggest one enforces what someone does to practice?


If we okay practicing with cheats, then it's simple for scores. Emu players will be required to submit a video of their score as achieved for their points to count. Plenty of free programs out there to record it and cut it down to about the last 2 minutes. More than fair. So maybe the argument for using it to "practice" is okay, but obviously not otherwise. Issue here is that it's pretty clear oyama fits into the "otherwise" category and has been submitting bogus scores.




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