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#1 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 1, 2013 11:55 PM

I am just curious to find out whether fellow atarians are willing to pay for new 8 bit software which fully utilize extra capabilities of new hardware such as VBXE, if so what kind of software would they be interested with (my guess is games would be on the #1 spot) What are your thoughts on that?

#2 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:36 AM

Pay? Depends. I'm probably one of the biggest VBXE releasers so far and I've not asked for any money.

For something to be paid for it'd want to be pretty good. Fair enough if something comes on cart then you're talking like $25 + just to cover the media and postage but for something downloadable or on floppy then the price would need to be pretty low.

#3 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:46 AM

Pay? Depends. I'm probably one of the biggest VBXE releasers so far and I've not asked for any money.
but for something downloadable or on floppy then the price would need to be pretty low.


So why do you think all those people who ordered the board ordered it, is it just for the excitement of seeing a piece of hardware that can do more than what GTIA can by itself? I am just asking this to have a feeling why people would buy a hardware if there is no software support for it, and when there is, why would they not want to pay? You say you haven't asked for money, that's fine but what is the reason? You would have to pay for the hardware to get it, so why is it difficult to pay (or asked to be paid) for the software? As for the quality of software, I agree it has to be good (or at least good enough for me to want to pay for it), but then if it's not it won't sell anyway and be priced accordingly.

Edited by atari8warez, Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:57 AM.


#4 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 1:21 AM

Just because a game is paid for doesn't mean it'll be better. Besides, it's a hobby - even if 200 VBXE users bought a game at $5 profit margin, it's only $1,000 for the author and when split down to a labour hours proposition might come out to a few bucks an hour.

But on the other side of the coin, there is 1 of the 5 or so games I've got on the stove that'll be a paid cart, albeit for standard hardware.

The problem with VBXE is you're dealing with a smaller audience, just because people fork out $200 or so for the hardware doesn't necessarily mean they're more likely than the average A8 owner to want to pay for the games to play on it.

#5 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 1:40 AM

Besides, it's a hobby - even if 200 VBXE users bought a game at $5 profit margin, it's only $1,000 for the author and when split down to a labour hours proposition might come out to a few bucks an hour.


Doesn't the same logic (hobby) applies to hardware developers? they do get compensated for their work, why not you?

just because people fork out $200 or so for the hardware doesn't necessarily mean they're more likely than the average A8 owner to want to pay for the games to play on it.


Then they most probably won't have any meaningful new software for their hardware, and keep staring at 640x400 pixel JPG images all the time, which I would personally prefer doing on a PC with much higher resolution. Doing it on an Atari simply wouldn't make sense since it would not be a authentic native capability of the computer anyway. Games and other software however would be a different story and incidentally they require a lot more hard work to develop then a simple image display utility.

This is of course entirely my own opinion, that's why I asked to know what others feel.

Edited by atari8warez, Sat Feb 2, 2013 1:44 AM.


#6 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 1:58 AM

Fair enough parallel I guess - although some HW developers barely cover costs. I think the operative thing must be that anyone developing either shouldn't really expect to make any sort of living from their work.

The entire world A8 market might support maybe 1 HW and 1 or 2 software guys as a sole income source. And the software guy would need to be a fairly prolific producer, probably in the order of a new game every 3-5 weeks.

#7 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 2:21 AM

Fair enough parallel I guess - although some HW developers barely cover costs. I think the operative thing must be that anyone developing either shouldn't really expect to make any sort of living from their work.


You're right, expecting otherwise wouldn't be too realistic... What inspired me to ask this question is a thread I've recently seen here in AA, in which somebody asked whether VBXE incorporates some sort of a unique serial number to help a developer secure the software by a means of serial number authentication.. There never was an answer to that question....

The entire world A8 market might support maybe 1 HW and 1 or 2 software guys as a sole income source. And the software guy would need to be a fairly prolific producer, probably in the order of a new game every 3-5 weeks.


True and I (and probably most people here) don't expect to make any kind of living from Atari software related work but would probably appreciate being compensated for their hard work just like hardware guys.

In any case thanks for the input.

Edited by atari8warez, Sat Feb 2, 2013 2:22 AM.


#8 candle OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 3:30 AM

Ray, vbxe doesn't have any serial numbers, and won't have in the future, the same with atari - they don't, just because noone ever thinked about protecting his work in that way
anywas, my point - i do software for free, whetever it is just a conversion to vbxe graphics, where all you have to do is to write new rendering engine, or something a bit more complicated like heartlight, where all features you can find on pc version are non existing, because game was published as type-in program in one of polish magazines back in the day
even things bigger like titus the fox, when you need to think all the bits yourself are going to be free of charge, including source code for others to learn
why? because i don't have any real cost here, i'm doing this in spare time, when i can and feel like to
but do i have to something against for people who want to get paid for doing software - no, provided i'm buying something here - i mean i woulnd't pay for a game that comes not on disk, or cartridge, and wouldn't have a box
i would like to have it on shelf right next to other titles i own, and for this i'm willing to pay up to 40$ - as i would for a PC title

#9 TMR ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 4:42 AM

Then they most probably won't have any meaningful new software for their hardware


This isn't something unique to the VBXE though, even expansions sold "back in the day" received poor support because they were too small a niche for commercial concerns and didn't offer a wide enough audience for backroom developers; that's why (switching formats for a moment for the examples) as far as games go there's only one for a C64 with SuperCPU and, to my knowledge at least, nothing requiring a RAM expansion either despite both units being almost as "retro" as the host machine and the latter being quite commonplace.


#10 pixelmischief OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 4:45 AM

I want a version of Ridiculous Reality that takes advantage of VBXE for color, scrolling, whatever. I'd pay, I don't know, maybe $20.00 for that. Maybe a little more. Yoomp, too. A better Arkanoid would be cool. Point is, yeah. I'd pay for titles that used VBXE. But then again, I'd pay for good titles that didn't.

#11 Mclaneinc ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 6:42 AM

I'd pay for GOOD software as I have on the PC (but not always), there's always the donate option if producers feel a bit odd asking for cash. The only thing that I do want is a digital download option, I have no interest in real disks or carts partily because of space and partialy because I know my hardware will one day stop working.

There's good titles I can't play because they refuse to do a digital download which is the easiest of all options but I presume they fear piracy?

So yes, I'd pay if the good were worth it..

#12 NML32 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 7:09 AM

Short answer is yes I'd pay.

#13 TMR ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 7:46 AM

But do people actually

I'd pay for GOOD software as I have on the PC (but not always), there's always the donate option if producers feel a bit odd asking for cash.


i'm not sure the donation option actually works as such, but i'd be interested to know how many people clicked on the Paypal link from Matosimi's homepage after playing Ridiculous Reality for example or got in touch with the author of Asteroids Emulator for a Paypal address?

Edited by TMR, Sat Feb 2, 2013 7:47 AM.


#14 Frankie OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 9:15 AM

I would pay a modest fee for a VBXE game. Just to show appreciation.

#15 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 3:04 PM

But do people actually

i'm not sure the donation option actually works as such, but i'd be interested to know how many people clicked on the Paypal link from Matosimi's homepage after playing Ridiculous Reality for example or got in touch with the author of Asteroids Emulator for a Paypal address?


I doubt very much that it works as intended......I must admit, I am guilty of the same sometimes. I guess it's kinda human nature, when we see something for free we have no hesitation to grab it, but then when it comes to show appreciation we aren't nearly as fast... It's strange, I worked for the software industry all my life and know how important is to get paid for the hard work you do everyday still the human nature takes over and prefer to have a piece of software for free if I can, and a lot of hard work put in writing good software goes uncompensated that way.

For some software authors writing software is for the personal satisfaction, for others it's an opportunity to learn new skills, and for some it's a way to make a living. I personally am at a stage of my life where I don't care at all about the financial compensation, but there are many others who do,

And there's one important fact we all seem to ignore, any hardware is just a bunch of electronic components soldered together, and without software to put it to good use they simply are nothing but a door stop.

So maybe dangling a financial compensation carrot in front of software authors is not a bad idea at all :)

#16 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 3:23 PM

Ray, vbxe doesn't have any serial numbers, and won't have in the future


That's what i figured from the silence :)

i do software for free


And I can understand that as you are primarily a hardware person and any new hardware these days will need at least a basic firmware/driver to even start doing anything useful. As a hardware developer you have to provide this basic functionality, also it would help to have at least a basic app/game/demo to promote sales of one's product.

Applications and games however add value to the hardware beyond basic functionality and they require lengthy development cycles and a lot of effort on the developer's part.

but do i have to something against for people who want to get paid for doing software - no, provided i'm buying something here - i mean i woulnd't pay for a game that comes not on disk, or cartridge, and wouldn't have a box
i would like to have it on shelf right next to other titles i own, and for this i'm willing to pay up to 40$ - as i would for a PC title


Hardware guys!..... you want something tangible that you can hold in your hands eh! :)

#17 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 7:01 PM

Are you posing this question on behalf of someone with an awesome VBXE project up his sleeve, then? I assume there's some motive here.

#18 atari8warez OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 2, 2013 10:39 PM

Are you posing this question on behalf of someone with an awesome VBXE project up his sleeve, then? I assume there's some motive here.


Ehem, well, not really, I was just probing to see if there is any future for VBXE so that I can decide whether I want to purchase one or not...... ;)

But seriously, as I explained above the question I've seen on the other thread (which Candle answered a few posts back) prompted me to ask this question, I was also curious about what people think about paying for software.

As for me, I already have enough on my AspeQt plate to keep me busy for the forseable future.

Edited by atari8warez, Sat Feb 2, 2013 10:40 PM.


#19 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 5, 2013 7:01 PM

Hello. Remember me? Tempest Xtreem and Venture programmer.

Well I have a new version of Tempest that probably be released after Venture. This will utilize VBXE and Stereo Music Sounds. However anything you want to sell you want it to be playable on a wide range of systems so I made it possible to work on non-VBXE systems by defaulting to the Tempest Xtreem Player/Missile routines. More levels will also be available. Anything more, you have to wait and see.


Something I thought about that be well suited for VBXE is Gauntlet Arcade / Dark Chambers, port or similar game because doing all those monsters cannot be done with just player / missile graphics. They used screen-character graphics [Antic 4 mode] in Dark Chambers, but the monsters had to use the same colors as the background. With VBXE, you can make something faithful and looking similar to the arcade.

#20 8bit-guy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:03 AM

Hello. Remember me? Tempest Xtreem and Venture programmer.

Well I have a new version of Tempest that probably be released after Venture. This will utilize VBXE and Stereo Music Sounds. However anything you want to sell you want it to be playable on a wide range of systems so I made it possible to work on non-VBXE systems by defaulting to the Tempest Xtreem Player/Missile routines. More levels will also be available. Anything more, you have to wait and see.


Something I thought about that be well suited for VBXE is Gauntlet Arcade / Dark Chambers, port or similar game because doing all those monsters cannot be done with just player / missile graphics. They used screen-character graphics [Antic 4 mode] in Dark Chambers, but the monsters had to use the same colors as the background. With VBXE, you can make something faithful and looking similar to the arcade.


would love to see regular venture finally finished for A8 and 5200 first...

#21 Markdvdman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:20 PM

Hmm it is a catch 22 situation. VBXE gives the Atari 8bits graphics capabilities beyond the 16 bits at standard resolution! However, it is in too few systems. As for paying for digital downloads, I do regularly. All for the PC but would be willing elsewhere. Steam, DotEmu, and PC software. My first computer was a Vic 20 (it was CHEAP lol). My first proper one was an Atari 800XL with tape deck, then progressed to another with a 1050 drive. I did not get another until I had the Archimedes A3000 - shows how much I hung onto the Atari dream ;-) I loved it in its day and some games are still way ahead of their time!

I would pay for digital VBXE downloads no problem to be used with Altirra! The target audience is there - and using magazines like Retrogamer may help - albeit via letters or some reviews. People will pay for iOs games with rubbish controls - us educated folk will pay more for good VBXE (or bad to give it a boost!) games if we have proper controls.

Candle - your hardware developments are incredible - Kudos to you!

#22 candle OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:37 PM

VBXE is Electron's creation, so'll pass the kudos to him :)

#23 Markdvdman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:18 PM

VBXE is Electron's creation, so'll pass the kudos to him :)


Ah my mistake but you are a legend to say the least - so is Electron of course ;-)




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