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Neodesk and Geneva!


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#1 DarkLord OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 8, 2013 8:13 AM

Amazingly enough, there is a message thread over at AtariForum,
talking about Dan Wilga of Neodesk and Geneva fame, actually
responding to e-mail requests.

http://www.atari-for... wilga&start=25

If the reports are right, seems like he wants to do a final updated
release and then make them available for all.

Personally I'd love to see both titles updated. Especially if they
would support the newer hardware that's come out.

We can hope. :)

#2 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 8, 2013 6:32 PM

That would be great, I'll have to go check out Atari-forum, I missed that thread. Though I've never tried Geneva, I really liked Neodesk 3 and plan on getting neodesk 4 in the meantime on my Falcon. Updates would be fantastic, especially if they support upgrades. CT60/63 and Radeon graphics are definitely in the future for my Falcon.

#3 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:45 PM

Amazingly enough, there is a message thread over at AtariForum,
talking about Dan Wilga of Neodesk and Geneva fame, actually
responding to e-mail requests.

http://www.atari-for... wilga&start=25

If the reports are right, seems like he wants to do a final updated
release and then make them available for all.

Personally I'd love to see both titles updated. Especially if they
would support the newer hardware that's come out.

We can hope. :)


So, I would like to spruce up my desktop and give me a little cooperative tasking on my 4 meg Falcon. Am I to understand that Geneva and NeoDesk 4 are for pay apps and are possibly not complete?

#4 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:43 AM

So, I would like to spruce up my desktop and give me a little cooperative tasking on my 4 meg Falcon. Am I to understand that Geneva and NeoDesk 4 are for pay apps and are possibly not complete?

 

They are very complete apps :).  Amazingly stable on STs, but I don't have experience with them on the Falcon.  Geneva even has AES 4.1 compatibility (at least with 1.06).  Neodesk 4 I think was at 1.05 for the last release.  Try them out, they are very good. 

 

I am pretty sure they are abandonware now.  The author was even going to release his last unpublished update for Geneva 1.07 but he had a hard drive crash.  He supposedly has a backup though but hasn't been very communicative lately.

 

The memory footprint is lower than say Magic/Jinnee combo (which is what I use), but Geneva/NeoDesk definitely has a distinct character and some people swear by it.  Let us know how you get along with it!



#5 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:04 AM

When I went a lookin' for it I found the website but I said something about trial version and prices. Of course, the date on the website was late 90's so I didn't know what to think.
I was going to go with the Neodesk/Geneva option because I heard MagiC was slower, but this could have been the experience on a Standard 68k ST.
Do you happen to have a like to all of this software so I might give them a try?

#6 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:00 PM

When I went a lookin' for it I found the website but I said something about trial version and prices. Of course, the date on the website was late 90's so I didn't know what to think.
I was going to go with the Neodesk/Geneva option because I heard MagiC was slower, but this could have been the experience on a Standard 68k ST.
Do you happen to have a like to all of this software so I might give them a try?

 

Yea that is the author's old website.  You won't get anywhere with it as it is derelict.  Magic, especially when paired with NVDI is definitely not slower.  It is almost 100% coded in assembler.  In fact speed is why most ppl prefer that combination.  But it uses more memory and Jinnee uses a lot to....but you get a power user's desktop if you use Jinnee.  Magic comes with a very capable desktop MagXDesk which is lightweight but is pretty good if you don't want the overhead of Jinnee.

 

Use http://fatrakoon.co.uk/awarez for NVDI and Jinnee if you want to try them.  It also has Magic there, but I would really recommend petari's English translation of Magic 6.20 from http://8bitchip.info...ri/magic62.html instead.

 

Lonny has the manuals for Magic 6 and NVDI 5 at http://dev-docs.atariforge.org/  The manual for Jinnee is at http://www.mediafire...kl9q213abzx0dol

 

I don't know where to get the Geneva or NeoDesk manuals online.  If you come across a link please let me know.

 

I put up Geneva 1.06 and NeoDesk for you on mediafire.  Not sure what version of Neodesk4 it is though.  Probably not the latest.  You can try it and see.

 

http://www.mediafire...v2/GENEVA6A.LZH

http://www.mediafire...jv/GENEVA6B.LZH

http://www.mediafire...cd/NEODESK4.ZIP

 

Good luck!



#7 Zogging Hell OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:20 PM

Magic/NVDI is faster multitasking than an ST runs at normal speed a lot of the time. Geneva, due to being a co-operative multitasking system, is probably more compatible however and Magic does seem to crash more often. But Geneva is slightly slower, although it is fast enough that it is really no different to running the ST in single tasking TOS.

Magic/ NVDI/ and Jinnee are still my favourite way to use the Falcon and up, while I prefer Geneva on the ST, although I'm not 100% a fan of Neodesk. It has a singular interface that is a bit of a departure from the norm, although miles better than the built in desktop (and Magic desk for that matter).

#8 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:54 PM

Well, compatibility is probably most important. I just looked at some images of Neodesk and it appeared to have a much more pleasing interface than MagiC.
So, I think I'm going to start with Neodesk but I'll keep all the files just for backups and availability for others looking for the same thing.

Maybe I know the answer to this question already but is there some reason why some of this stuff is hard to get a hold of? Has time just not been kind to the collection? I know there was a ton more software when I had my ST back in the 80's and 90's then what I'm finding. Maybe it's all been imaged. Since some of us still have a fondness for using the real thing, I thought there would be a repository for non-imaged software. I ran into this same issue when looking for software for my Mac....but worse.

#9 Zogging Hell OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:01 AM

I suppose Atari mania is the best place to find 'abandon' ware applications, most of which will be in imaged format. A lot of the copyrights on the software is still retained and some of it is still being 'sold', which includes most of the really good stuff from the ST's latter years, which is why, probably, a lot isn't online. Images are fairly easy to deal with if you have an old PC with a floppy drive however, and it's worth keeping these around.

#10 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:44 AM

Yes, I saw the posts about converting images to real files that can run on real machines. Although I'm a long time ST owner, I haven't been part of this community so I'm just trying to make sure that there wasn't already some repository of ST software that wasn't imaged. To covert something from an image to a real format will be very time consuming so I wonder how many others might be interested in this effort and if it's even worth it.
My main interests are keeping this history alive as well as make it as easy and welcoming as possible for others to get started with this community...but I digress. LOL!
Thanks again for the info and links. This will be one of my weekend tasks.

#11 Zogging Hell OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:59 AM

It was something I had always planned on doing on Zogging Hell in a Mac Garden kind of fashion, alas time is not so free as it used to be...

#12 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:24 AM

Yes, I saw the posts about converting images to real files that can run on real machines. Although I'm a long time ST owner, I haven't been part of this community so I'm just trying to make sure that there wasn't already some repository of ST software that wasn't imaged. To covert something from an image to a real format will be very time consuming so I wonder how many others might be interested in this effort and if it's even worth it.
My main interests are keeping this history alive as well as make it as easy and welcoming as possible for others to get started with this community...but I digress. LOL!
Thanks again for the info and links. This will be one of my weekend tasks.

 

Almost everything is available somewhere :).  Some of it is still commercial so I recommend you support those authors where possible. 

 

That being said, if you are looking for some particular software, just send me a pm and will do my best to point you in the right direction.  Good luck!



#13 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:44 AM

Will do about the PM.
Yea, I know it's probably somewhere but it's always nice to have a complete collection in one or two locations. I event thought that the 8bitchips site had such a plethora of invaluable info that I offered my sevices to edit it and put it into Joomla. I can tell you that just doing one sample page was quite a task. I wasn't taken up on my offer so now the wife has filled that time with honeydo's.
In any case, I agree that if someone is still supporting software then we should do our best to support them.

#14 viking272 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:39 PM

As I said on Atari-Forum that Dan Wilga had replied to me last year when i asked if the main titles that Gribnif sold could be released as Freeware or Donationware.

Dan Wilga was interested in the latter and said he had a near complete new update of Geneva which was unreleased.

He said he would get out his TT and check out the position and what he could do as a final version, then his hard disk died.

I've not heard anything more since May last year. :(

I've emailed him every 3 months too, so it's not looking promising. However I've not given up and have hope.

 

He may of replied to my mail as I had dealt with him in a business capacity when I worked for Compo UK in the early 1990's and we sold the Gridnif products.



#15 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:51 PM

As I said on Atari-Forum that Dan Wilga had replied to me last year when i asked if the main titles that Gribnif sold could be released as Freeware or Donationware.

Dan Wilga was interested in the latter and said he had a near complete new update of Geneva which was unreleased.

He said he would get out his TT and check out the position and what he could do as a final version, then his hard disk died.

I've not heard anything more since May last year. :(

I've emailed him every 3 months too, so it's not looking promising. However I've not given up and have hope.

 

He may of replied to my mail as I had dealt with him in a business capacity when I worked for Compo UK in the early 1990's and we sold the Gridnif products.

 

I'd love to see that changelog to the final version ;) .  v1.06 was pretty damn near bulletproof from what I can tell.   Well I know you tried to reestablish contact.  The ball is in his court now it seems.



#16 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:41 AM

Viking, when you say, "his hard drive died" does that mean he lost the source or he just needs a new hdd? Finding an old SCSI HDD isn't that difficult or expensive so I really hope he believed in backing up his code.

#17 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:06 PM

After a little more time reading, MagiC, NVDI, and Jinnee might be what I might try. I'm reading what's on 8BitChips but it's a bit confusing so I think it would be a good idea to go over the manuals to get a good understanding of what I'm doing. :-)


Edited by Justin Payne, Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:29 PM.


#18 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:48 PM

After a little more time reading, MagiC, NVDI, and Jinnee might be what I might try. I'm reading what's on 8BitChips but it's a bit confusing. At this point I think this is what I understand. I followed the instructions by copying the MRAM to C: and then ran MAGXBOOT but screen just went black and HDD light stayed constant.

  • MagiC is the equivalent to TOS
  • Jinnee is the equivalent to GEM
  • NVDI is the equivalent to GDOS

​The 8bitChips doc mentions, "Added support for autoboot from twisted IDE cable/adapter". When I replacement drive I don't remember seeing a twisted cable.
Are there any good step by step instructions for this or am I just over-complicating it?

 

Well Magic is TOS on steroids!  Almost 100% assembler with preemptive multitasking and many TOS bugs fixed (light years ahead).  Serial port routines patched, Wdialog integrated, vfat support, shared libraries, magxnet networking available, etc etc.  Remember if you use petari's (8BitChips) magic.ram it is set for UK system.  There are some changes needed for USA system (60hz, keyboard table).  Luckily he just released a newer English version that has the error dialogs translated which is already set for USA. Get it at this thread http://www.atari-for...hp?f=16&t=26060   Don't forget the PDIALOG.SLB file at the end of the thread.   It has the best and most current English conversion of the Printer Dialog.

 

Jinnee is way better than GEM desktop, but I see what you mean.  But it is very advanced.  Comparable to Windows 95.  Can use Kobold too for file operations too.  GEMScript support.  AV-Server integrated...recommended!

 

NVDI is not only the replacement for GDOS, it provides scaling font technology like SpeedoGDOS so you can use TTF fonts among others.  Written in assembler for speed.  Also has amazing printer driver support.  Get iPRN if you use this.

 

You don't need the IDE cable version if you are using ASCI type drive like ultrasatan.

 

If you use Magic, get the Xboot 3.20 unofficial patch (and then add in the y2k patch - I can send this to you if you need it) and the MagiC speedup patch....It makes booting much smoother.

 

Also with Jinnee, using Appline and StartMeUp are awesome.  Olga, BubbleGem, Scripter, ST-Guide, COPS...all of these make a cool system.

 

Sounds like you are about to have some fun :grin:   You need a 4MB or higher system though.  Not hard to do though especially if you are using a Falcon like it looks you are.  Get going dude!


Edited by TheNameOfTheGame, Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:03 AM.


#19 Justin Payne OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:51 AM

WOW! Lot 'O Info....but good info. I like info. :grin: 
Well, you responded pretty quickly to my first post. I started to figure things out and then realized that I should probably RTFM which was provided to me. I'm slowly piecing this all together and with your info, that's got me even closer BUT you comment, "Sounds like you are about to have some fun :grin: ", is never a good sign, especially with that smiley face.
It appears this information is scattered and a lot of it is tribal knowledge. Seems to me if I become successful with that that I should probably write up some document detailing this process out so that others don't have to struggle. Would this be a correct statement?

 

As for my cable, I am not using UltraSatan. My Falcon has 4 megs and a real HDD in it. I just replaced it. I also have a external SCSI HDD and CD-RW, which I just picked up for $1. If I ever get a 14meg upgrade, I'll be going Mint.

 

If you want to ZIP all of the files you suggested up, I'd love to have it. I can make space on a share if you want to drop it there instead of using your own space. Whatever works best. I have gather a lot so far but I'm at work and could tell you what I actually have until I get home, but it just might be quicker for you to just give me everything.


Edited by Justin Payne, Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:52 AM.


#20 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:41 PM

WOW! Lot 'O Info....but good info. I like info. :grin: 
Well, you responded pretty quickly to my first post. I started to figure things out and then realized that I should probably RTFM which was provided to me. I'm slowly piecing this all together and with your info, that's got me even closer BUT you comment, "Sounds like you are about to have some fun :grin: ", is never a good sign, especially with that smiley face.
It appears this information is scattered and a lot of it is tribal knowledge. Seems to me if I become successful with that that I should probably write up some document detailing this process out so that others don't have to struggle. Would this be a correct statement?

 

As for my cable, I am not using UltraSatan. My Falcon has 4 megs and a real HDD in it. I just replaced it. I also have a external SCSI HDD and CD-RW, which I just picked up for $1. If I ever get a 14meg upgrade, I'll be going Mint.

 

If you want to ZIP all of the files you suggested up, I'd love to have it. I can make space on a share if you want to drop it there instead of using your own space. Whatever works best. I have gather a lot so far but I'm at work and could tell you what I actually have until I get home, but it just might be quicker for you to just give me everything.

 

Here is a link to very good documentation for Magic http://toshyp.atari.org/en/00b.html  and here is a good review of Jinnee which shows some of its features http://www.myatari.c...2001/jinnee.htm

 

I agree for a 4mb machine Magic is a lot of fun, but for 14mb or higher yea I would seriously look at Mint like you mentioned.

 

A lot of those programs I mentioned come with either Jinnee or Magic, but just in case I put together a package of the latest English versions I have http://www.mediafire.../magicprogs.zip



#21 Bikerbob OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:48 AM

thanks so much guys. This thread was super helpful, glad I found it.

 

I am going through all of this right now.

 

James



#22 Tillek OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:56 PM

thanks so much guys. This thread was super helpful, glad I found it.

 

I am going through all of this right now.

 

James

Might need the Wayback machine for some of those links though.



#23 TheNameOfTheGame OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:15 PM

Might need the Wayback machine for some of those links though.

 

A lot of it is up at my thread on atari-forum if these links are dead.

 

http://www.atari-for...hp?f=14&t=32323



#24 Bikerbob OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:24 PM

Tillek, are you having luck with the cosmos??? grrrrr

 

I bought PPs drivers, I am having issues, but I think its the cosmos, not his drivers.

 

I am trying to use the CE_STiNG which I have see posts where people say it just works.. and so far trying to run CAB 1.5 no luck at all getting out of the machine. 

 

James



#25 Tillek OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:06 AM

I honestly haven't looked since I made those posts. Truth is, I have no interest in browsing web pages on my Atari. I wanted it for other functionality. (Game development). It got slapped to the end of the project queue.




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