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JAGUAR Duo~Power 2-in-1 A/C Adapter


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#26 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 9:59 AM

I'm uploading a video now of my testing it on my own Skunk 2. Unless yours are seriously different it isn't the power supply. These power supplies have been thoroughly tested prior to offering. They output 15.18 - 15.20v at 2.20 amps. The regulator in the Jag is able to handle 40V 3.4 amps. I'm fairly certain this isn't the power supply. Unless the Skunk 1 is vastly different in some way (yet to be proven).

#27 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 10:22 AM

Check out the video here.



In understanding how the step down regulator works in the Jaguar, you understand that this issue can not be related. Regardless of the model of Skunk. Voltage enters the system and enters the "step down" regulator. The purpose of this chip is to give consistent power at the correct voltage. By the time the Skunk sees any of that power, it has already been regulated. I firmly believe that the power supply is NOT the issue.

#28 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 10:41 AM

Anyone wanting to go in on this. Sh3? However once here we still need to distribute to ourselves within the UK so I don't know how much saving is to be had really.

I appreciate these could be handy for some people, but I have lots of strips of surge-protected 6-ways so I don't really have the need, at the moment I have Jaguar/CD/upscaler/capture box all a toe-tap away from firing up and shutting down :)

#29 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 10:50 AM

I should also mention that the Duo~Power was tested with CatBox as well. I put in hundreds of hours of up time on the first one I made for myself before I ever offered them to the community. It doesn't break BSG either. These units are safe. :thumbsup:

#30 Guitari OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 11:37 AM

I appreciate these could be handy for some people, but I have lots of strips of surge-protected 6-ways so I don't really have the need, at the moment I have Jaguar/CD/upscaler/capture box all a toe-tap away from firing up and shutting down :)


No worries man!

all the best

#31 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 11:39 AM

Hi there! I was pointed at this thread by Clu.

If these power supplies output 15v, then DO NOT use these power supplies with a Revision 1 or Revision 2 Skunkboard. You will VERY LIKELY damage the flash chip. It's almost guaranteed for a rev 2 board.

While the Jaguar does regulate the input power down to 5 volts for most functions in the system, it also exposes the raw (expected 9 volt) power on the cartridge port. The Revision 1 and Revision 2 Skunkboard use this 9v line to the flash chip. There is no regulation or other protection because 9v is right at the bottom of what the chip will take, the maximum on this pin is 10v.

On the Revision 1 board this seemed to work just fine, but on the Revision 2 board, with the larger flash chip, we received reports of flash chips being damaged. While there was never enough evidence to be conclusive, there was enough to suggest that power surges when applying power and poorly controlled third party power supplies were likely culprits. This was why we issued warnings to NOT use the Skunkboard with third party power supplies and to ALWAYS ensure that the power switch on the Jaguar was off when inserting the board. The likely difference is a layout difference inside the flash chip itself (the flash chip tended to always burn in the same place). On revision 3 we disconnected this line altogether to improve the safety of the board, and in theory it should be fine, although I would probably continue to warn.

I don't want to diss Ax's work, I have one of his 3-way power plugs for the Genesis/Sega CD which I love (and it runs my video switch too ;) ). But the higher voltage here is a bad move on the Jag (actually, exposing the raw voltage on the cartridge port was a bad move, too ;) ).

The same warnings may exist for other devices - you have to ensure they are not using that 9v line unregulated. Cartridges shouldn't, so that at least should be safe.

An alternate safety may be to disable the 9v line to the cartridge port itself, then it can't hurt anything. Skunkboard 1 and 2 will still work in this scenario using the 'slow word' write mode.

#32 ahuffman OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 12:08 PM

I just got mine yesterday, have not had a chance to test it yet but it looks great. This should also work with the 32x right (dumb question I know)?

#33 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 12:15 PM

I made sure that the regulator could handle it before I ever made these.

http://thegoldenax.i...63-D-104943.pdf

What I didn't expect was a peripheral that would ever use the unregulated incoming voltage. Having tested it and not had a problem with my own Skunk, I'm surprised to hear about this. There are a few simple solutions. As Tursi suggested, disabling the direct line to the cartridge slot from within your Jaguar will solve any issue, if you are wanting to run a Skunk 1 or 2 and already have one of the Duo~Power units. OR going forward I can add a regulator to the power supply stepping it down to 9 volts in advance. If anyone wants to mail theirs back for an step-downgrade I'm happy to install one.

AX

#34 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 12:16 PM

I just got mine yesterday, have not had a chance to test it yet but it looks great. This should also work with the 32x right (dumb question I know)?


Nope, the 32X is positive tip. You need one of my GenCube adapters.

#35 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 12:28 PM

I wouldn't connect this supply to anything using a linear regulator internally either, unless you're really sure that there's enough heatsinking to dissipate the extra heat (and input capacitors with a large enough working voltage).

If the internal voltage is 5 V, feeding the input with 15 V instead of 9 V will result in a power dissipation that's 2.5x higher!

#36 doctorclu OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 1:08 PM

If anyone wants to mail theirs back for an step-downgrade I'm happy to install one.


Will probably take you up on that.

#37 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 1:22 PM

For now just don't use your Skunk 1 or 2 with the Duo~Power. Everybody that got one will have the option of sending it in for a step-downgrade so that 9V comes off the pigtails, then there will be no question. That said, they are very safe for use with games and discs on both the Jaguar/CD and Genesis1/CD both from the specs on the regulators and my opinion from my own extended use.

AX

#38 Isgoed OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 1:30 PM

Ax, if I should order one of these, and anything would go wrong with my setup, is the risk for me or do you give some sort of guarantee?

Seeing what happened to doctorclu is terrible :(

#39 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 1:55 PM

An email has been sent to the customers who bought one already offering the step-downgrade (upgrade) if they plan to use it with Skunk 1 or 2. SOME Skunk 1 & 2 boards are apparently more sensitive to the Jaguar Duo~Power output. Simply put, they are rated for lower power than the first few Duo~Power adapters give. Per Tursi, it was suspected that different batches of chips from Atmel had different internal layouts, and one of them just ran two traces closer together. To be clear this isn't a defect in the Skunk or the Jaguar Duo~Power. Some just don't play nice together, and it is an issue that is being addressed and resolved just in case. Again, not a defect, just that some of the Atmel chips were stronger, and thus able to withstand higher voltages. The Jaguar Duo~Power was tested and passed with my own Skunk 2 before I ever offered it for sale. If it hadn't I wouldn't have sold them. To be safe going forward they will be downgraded with a lower voltage output will be 9-10v.

AX

#40 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 2:15 PM

Sorry, but it is a defect. You don't use a power supply whose voltage is 67% above the normal value without reviewing the whole schematic of the device and double-checking that's everything is OK with it. A quick glance on a datasheet and "it works for me" test is not enough.

The fact that it appears to work fine doesn't mean anything, overvoltage can lead to early failures.

Everybody makes mistakes, but they should also admit them and not try to shift the blame.

Edited by Zerosquare, Tue May 14, 2013 2:17 PM.


#41 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 3:35 PM

Sorry, but it is a defect. You don't use a power supply whose voltage is 67% above the normal value without reviewing the whole schematic of the device and double-checking that's everything is OK with it. A quick glance on a datasheet and "it works for me" test is not enough.

The fact that it appears to work fine doesn't mean anything, overvoltage can lead to early failures.

Everybody makes mistakes, but they should also admit them and not try to shift the blame.


While I agree with the assertion, I don't want to be too hard on him. I think Ax did try to cover the bases that he thought about, and that it was an honest mistake. He tested with what he had available, and I think he's trying to go for "no blame" rather than shifting it. It's fair since he is determined to make it right.

The important thing here is that it has been caught, it's going to be fixed, and lesson learned, hopefully. :)

#42 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 14, 2013 4:49 PM

What made me angry (even though I was not directly involved) are two things :

- the mistake could have been easily avoided if the.golden.ax had asked about it on AA beforehand

- his inital "no I'm sure the PSU is fine, the problem must be on your end" reply to DrClu

That being said, I'm glad you're working together to fix the problem and wish you luck.

#43 sh3-rg OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 15, 2013 12:35 AM

This is all very unfortunate.

The skunk in Ax's video is running through the Jaguar CD - is it possible that's what saved his skunk flash from frying?

#44 Tursi OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 15, 2013 2:48 AM

hmm.. interesting. I have no idea if the JagCD just passes the high voltage line through or does something with it, having never had one. I'd be surprised if it does modify it, though. If the voltage is dropped much at all, the high speed programming won't even work.

It is probably worth the time to develop a mod that removes the high voltage support from rev 1 and 2, as well. The theory is simple enough - disconnect the line from the cartridge port, and attach the Vpp pin on the flash chip to Vcc. At that point only "slow word" mode will work, but I can backport the Rev 3 changes to Rev 2 easily enough. Rev 1, probably, but it's a bit more work. Not sure what the demand for that would be, but it should put an end to that problem (for boards that are modified).

Unfortunately due to replacements for boards in which I investigated reported faults then replaced, I don't actually /own/ any Rev 2 or Rev 3 boards anymore. Anyone who wants to sell me one or two back would be entertained. ;)






#45 Zerosquare OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 15, 2013 1:01 PM

The JagCD connects the 9V pin on the cart port directly to the same pin on the Jaguar side, according to the schematic.

Maybe the fact that the JagCD was plugged in brought down the power supply voltage enough to spare the Flash chip, maybe it's just a coincidence.

#46 the.golden.ax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 16, 2013 11:23 AM

For those that have not opened their box from me, if you mark it "refused" they will return it to me at no postage cost to you.



#47 walter_J64bit OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 3, 2013 8:45 AM

golden.ax I see you got your handsfull, check your PM box.

#48 wolfpackmommy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:33 PM

This is Ax's wife please see this thread about where Ax has been.

http://atariage.com/...ax-by-his-wife/

A salution for the the power supplies has been found. It is being installed by me. The returned power suplies will be shipped back as soon as possible.

Sorry for the delay!

Thank You,
Sally

#49 Clay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:56 PM

This is Ax's wife please see this thread about where Ax has been.

http://atariage.com/...ax-by-his-wife/

A salution for the the power supplies has been found. It is being installed by me. The returned power suplies will be shipped back as soon as possible.

Sorry for the delay!

Thank You,
Sally


I imagine you a pretty busy person right now, so while I can not speak for everyone that has ordered one of the Duo Power AC adapters, in my case it is to replace 2 AC adapters that are working fine right now. So this item is not that important and can wait until Ax is feeling better or when you may extra time. Please do not make this a priority (at least mine. I am guessing a lot of other people will agree).

#50 Dan Iacovelli OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:30 AM

sorry I missed this,hopefully ax will get better soon and he can continue his mods




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