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Atari 400/800 OS B PAL - The real McCoy

Atari 400/800 OS B PAL

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#1 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:28 AM

Hello together!

 

If anyone of you has an Atari 400/800 in the PAL version from the old days, please be so kind and try in Basic:

 

? PEEK(65528)

 

If you receive: 34

 

Please use this small program:

 

10 OPEN #1,8,0,"D:A800.ROM"

20 FOR A=55296 TO 65535:PUT #1,PEEK(A):NEXT A

30 CLOSE #1

 

and publish the file here.

 

After 32 years(!) the Atari community doesn't have this rom file. I am for real!

 

Would be a little step for you, but a giant leap for the Atari community. :-)

 

Publisher of the year would also be possible.  ;-)

 

Not kidding with this, I am for real.

 

 

Many thanks in advance, all the best,

 

luckybuck

 

 



#2 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:58 AM

I'm not sure such a revision even exists.

OS-A was short-lived, had a few annoying bugs. Entirely possible that OS-B came out before Pal machines were even being marketed, and for whatever reason the Pal OS was called Rev A.

A byte by byte comparison of the OSes should reveal if Pal OS-A is in fact almost the same as NTSC OS-B. The only differences I can think of should be:

Checksum/revision bytes.
Cassette baud rate/AUDF tables.
Keyboard handler repeat delay/rate stores.

#3 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:09 AM

Dear Rybags,

 

Thanks for your answer.

 

Well, it is quite easy:

 

 

Get ROM info for file: REVANTSC.ROM
ROM file CRC: 0xc1b3bb02, Atari 400/800 rev.A NTSC
Atari System: 400/800, OS: NTSC rev.A
FCD8 : A2 (400/800 = A2)
FFF8 : DD (400/800 Rev.A/NTSC = DD, Rev.A/PAL = D6, Rev.B/NTSC = F3, Rev.B/PAL = 22)
FFF9 : 57 (400/800 Rev.A = 57, Rev.B = E6 or 58)
FFF1 : 40 (1200XL = 01)
FFF7 : FF (Revision number for XL/XE)
 
Get ROM info for file: REVAPAL.ROM
ROM file CRC: 0x72b3fed4, Atari 400/800 rev.A PAL
Atari System: 400/800, OS: PAL rev.A
FCD8 : A2 (400/800 = A2)
FFF8 : D6 (400/800 Rev.A/NTSC = DD, Rev.A/PAL = D6, Rev.B/NTSC = F3, Rev.B/PAL = 22)
FFF9 : 57 (400/800 Rev.A = 57, Rev.B = E6 or 58)
FFF1 : 40 (1200XL = 01)
FFF7 : FF (Revision number for XL/XE)
 
Get ROM info for file: REVBNTSC.ROM
ROM file CRC: 0x0e86d61d, Atari 400/800 rev.B NTSC
Atari System: 400/800, OS: NTSC rev.B
FCD8 : A2 (400/800 = A2)
FFF8 : F3 (400/800 Rev.A/NTSC = DD, Rev.A/PAL = D6, Rev.B/NTSC = F3, Rev.B/PAL = 22)
FFF9 : E6 (400/800 Rev.A = 57, Rev.B = E6 or 58)
FFF1 : 40 (1200XL = 01)
FFF7 : FF (Revision number for XL/XE)
 
Best regards,
 
luckybuck


#4 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 12:40 PM

Well my Atari 400 PAL has (I guess) a rev. A OS.

 

When I played the games rolltris and thetris from MAPA I saw the title screen was not correct. I wasn't expecting these games running at all on my Atari 400, but they did for the rest. So I mentioned it at the thetris thread, and MAPA told me the games should run perfect on 48K atari.

 

I tested it on my OS B Atari 800 (also PAL) and there is the title screen just fine.

 

So I guess my Atari 400 PAL has an original OS A rom. And I'm pretty convinced I have an original Atari 400 without modifications or whatsoever. It has a very low serial number. 



#5 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 12:55 PM

Hi ProWizard!

 

You wrote:

 

"I tested it on my OS B Atari 800 (also PAL) and there is the title screen just fine."

 

Do you mean, you have a real Atari 800 and when BASIC is inserted and you type in:

 

 

 ?PEEK(65528)

 

you got 34 as result?

 

If so, you are Atari user of the year!



#6 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 1:58 PM

Hmmm this is odd

 

The Atari 400 with OS A (Well I am rather convinced this is OS A) gives 214

 

The Atari 800 with OS B gives 234 243.

 

See the screenshots.

 

Atari 400 screen

 

Atari 400 setup

 

Atari 800 screen

 

Atari 800 setup


Edited by ProWizard, Wed May 28, 2014 2:00 PM.


#7 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 2:04 PM

Well... that means that the revision code in my ROM is NTSC which is odd, since this 800 even came with the original green PAL tag on the latch. 

 

I am under the impression that they simply forgot to update/change the ID number.

 

Offtopic:

For some silly reason I appreciate software that is good (or better than that) more on my Atari 800, since that is the original 8bit atari. When it runs on THAT system, and it is amazing... wow... that really is exciting. 

 

Let's take those new games from Mapa; rolltris and thetris. Isn't it fabulous to see those titles on these antique atari 400 and 800? I appreciate that a lot!



#8 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 2:11 PM

Dear ProWizard!

 

First, thank you very much for your help, we really appreciate that!  :)  :)  :)

 

Well, your 400 is: Rev.A/PAL = D6 equal 214

 

your 800 is: Rev.B/NTSC = F3 equal 243

 

Please see here:

 

Get ROM info for file: REVBNTSC.ROM

ROM file CRC: 0x0e86d61d, Atari 400/800 rev.B NTSC

Atari System: 400/800, OS: NTSC rev.B

FCD8 : A2 (400/800 = A2)

FFF8 : F3 (400/800 Rev.A/NTSC = DD, Rev.A/PAL = D6, Rev.B/NTSC = F3, Rev.B/PAL = 22)

FFF9 : E6 (400/800 Rev.A = 57, Rev.B = E6 or 58)

FFF1 : 40 (1200XL = 01)

FFF7 : FF (Revision number for XL/XE)

 

Further, if you take out your 10K ROM of the 800, you should get: CO12499B, CO14599B, 12399B on the chips inside after removing the screws.

 

Rev. TV    Date        CRC-32      Part Nr(s)

~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A    NTSC  1979        0xc1b3bb02  CO12499A, CO14599A, CO12399B

A    PAL   1979        0x72b3fed4  CO15199, CO15299, CO12399B

B    NTSC  1981        0x0e86d61d  CO12499B, CO14599B, 12399B

B    PAL   (*)         (*)         (*)

 
It is really unbelievable, but after 33(!) years, we do not have the actual(!) Atari OS for the 400 or 800!!!
 
Any help or any hint is very welcome. Everlasting fame for those, who bring this to the public is for sure.
 
Thanks again!


#9 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 2:15 PM

Yes, of course, even solving old games after more than 3 decades is really(!) fun. Miner 2049er is still on the list...

 

No one has seen Level 10 Station 10 end as far as I know...

 

But there will come a time, mankind will solve that!



#10 Tempest OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 2:41 PM

No one has seen Level 10 Station 10 end as far as I know...

 

But there will come a time, mankind will solve that!

Can't someone disable the collision detection with the mutants to make that level beatable?  Seems like the only way.



#11 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 2:48 PM

Dear Tempest, nice to hear from you again.

 

Sure, but if you do, then in that case you can't pull down the stairs...

 

Maybe in an emulator with the speed set to 10% of the 6502...?

 

Just an idea... 

 

Let's boldly go where no Atari user has gone before... ;-)



#12 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 5:20 PM

Has a Rev A/PAL OS ever been dumped?



#13 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 5:37 PM

Hi Stephen!

 

Yes! 

 

 

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom a3c1585b5d19719f8acfa2b093bea75f

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom eb1f32f5d9f382db1bbfb8d7f9cb343a

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V1.rom a3e8d617c95d08031fe1b20d541434b2

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V2.rom 4177f386a3bac989a981d3fe3388cb6c

 

V1 and V2 of OS Rev B are identical, but have different MD5s

 

Attached File  OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom   10KB   148 downloads

Attached File  OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom   10KB   173 downloads

Attached File  OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V1.rom   10KB   151 downloads

Attached File  OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V2.rom   10KB   144 downloads

 

 


#14 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 28, 2014 6:01 PM

 

Hi Stephen!

 

Yes! 

 

 

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom a3c1585b5d19719f8acfa2b093bea75f

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom eb1f32f5d9f382db1bbfb8d7f9cb343a

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V1.rom a3e8d617c95d08031fe1b20d541434b2

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V2.rom 4177f386a3bac989a981d3fe3388cb6c

 

V1 and V2 of OS Rev B are identical, but have different MD5s

 

attachicon.gifOS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom

attachicon.gifOS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom

attachicon.gifOS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V1.rom

attachicon.gifOS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800) V2.rom

Thanks a bunch!



#15 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 2:31 AM

V1 and V2 of OS Rev B are identical, but have different MD5s

If they have different MD5s, they cannot be identical. One of these two is a hacked version.

EDIT: Ah yes, the V1 one. It comes from PC XFormer, it was modified specifically to work with that emulator.

EDIT 2: luckybuck, I support your effort to find the PAL OSB wholeheartedly. I'd only like to add that it's not the only OS holy Grail to find - the other one is the elusive Operating System 255, expected to have been mounted in the very earliest few thousand NTSC Ataris. I think this OS 255 actually has higher chances of unearthing, since there are documents confirming that it reached the market.

Edited by Kr0tki, Thu May 29, 2014 3:22 AM.


#16 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 5:43 AM

Wow! Thank you so much Kr0tki! :)  :)  :)  :)  :thumbsup:

 

That is amazing, didn't know of OS 255, now it is on the artifact-list. ;-)

 

Do you know, whether there is a MD5 for that ROM? Any hint besides the POKE? Especially in the SALTs? It seems, you are the only one in the knowing of that...

 

So cool, you could clear that for us with the 2 versions of the OS B NTSC.

 

Besides this, it is clear, that Michael has some hidden pages on his site... ;-)

 

 

Again, thank you so much!  ;)



#17 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 1:08 PM

For more information on the OS 255, see the README in my OS sources package.

The three documents referenced in that README are all that's known about this revision. Otherwise - no checksums, no special code in SALTs, nothing.

#18 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 2:35 PM

Oh now I know why my PAL 800 reports that it is NTSC OS B.

 

That should also have been PAL OS A. 

 

I have a few Atari 800's here. 2x PAL 800 and 2x NTSC 800.

 

First I owned these 2 NTSC 800, and then I bought my first PAL 800. That one was defect (green screen) so I exchanged the OS ROM board from the NTSC Atari 800 to the defect 800, and then it worked ( the 74LS09 is defect).

I completely forgot about that, so that is why my PAL 800 reports NTSC OS B.

 

Tonight I dug up the other PAL 800, and that one reports -just like my 400- OS A PAL (value 214)

 

So I searched for the defect OS ROM board (from the defect 800) and replaced the 74LS09 with a good one, and checked again. That one also was a PAL OS A.

 

So what do I have here:

 

1 x Atari 400 PAL - OS A PAL (214)

2x  Atari 800 NTSC - OS B NTSC (243)

2x Atari 800 PAL - OS A PAL (214)

 

I still wonder whether that PAL OS B is ever sold here or not.

 

Greetz

Marius



#19 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 2:45 PM

Dear Marius!

 

Well, I know, but there is proof:

 

http://mixinc.net/at..._Searchable.pdf

14.8 MB

page 31 in the pdf-file else page 28 inside the book.

I will never surrender until it is found...

There was an episode in Star Trek TNG, where Picard looked at Fermat's theorem in the 23rd century... well it was solved in 1991 (after hundreds of years!), a few time after the episode was aired...



#20 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 3:24 PM

BTW Marius, could you report the serial numbers of your machines, and maybe the date codes on the internal chips? Maybe we could guess production dates of your units. I'd guess if your machines were from say mid-1983, then it would mean that even the last 400s/800s produced contained PAL OSA.

There's a thread about serial numbers worth looking at.

#21 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 3:44 PM

Interesting yes...

 

I'll do this tomorrow. 

 

Offtopic (again):

As a real 800XL fan I always thought the 400/800 were ancient incompatible computers, with only nostalgia value. But I see it different now. Although they do not run quite some titles, there are still a lot of titles that do run on them. And since XL/XE is my daytime Atari stuff, this 400/800 again gives the ability to feel retro (Xl/XE is not retro for me haha). 



#22 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 29, 2014 4:07 PM

Yes, that is true! Try for example Galahad and the Holy Grail!

 

It was solved after 30 years.... ;-)



#23 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:06 AM

BTW Marius, could you report the serial numbers of your machines, and maybe the date codes on the internal chips? Maybe we could guess production dates of your units. I'd guess if your machines were from say mid-1983, then it would mean that even the last 400s/800s produced contained PAL OSA.

There's a thread about serial numbers worth looking at.

 

Here you go:

 

Serial Atari 800 PAL Unit1

 

Serial Atari 800 PAL Unit2

 

Serial Atari 400 PAL (note: there is no P behind the 400!)

 

Atari 800 ROM Board Unit 1 OS A PAL

 

Atari 800 ROM Board Unit 2 OS A PAL

 

Atari 400 ROM Chips OS A PAL

 

 

Edit: there were differences (slight) so I decided to make a few more pics. 

 

 


Edited by ProWizard, Fri May 30, 2014 9:11 AM.


#24 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:10 AM

Dear Marius!

 

 

Thanks  a lot for help. We really appreciate that! :-)



#25 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:12 AM

Dear Marius!

 

 

Thanks  a lot for help. We really appreciate that! :-)

 

Just to be sure you saw it: I made a few more pictures, and edited the post!







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