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Atari 400/800 OS B PAL - The real McCoy

Atari 400/800 OS B PAL

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#26 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:14 AM

I think I know why there is no P behind the 400.

 

Both the Atari 800's were marked as PAL (PAL B/G; for Western-Europe (Germany/Netherlands etc.)  while the Atari 400 is marked with a UK tag, which is PAL-I. 

 

That's probably why there is no P behind the 400. I'm pretty sure this 400 was original PAL UK and not modded afterwards. Can't believe someone takes all the effort to make it PAL (with a PAL personality board, and PAL OS ROMS) but then leave it 16K. 



#27 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:28 AM

Yes Marius,

 

All of your ROMs do match with my post #8: Posted Wed May 28, 2014 10:11 PM

 

Anyway, a quick and dirty test is always: ?PEEK(65528)

 

So, the hunt continues... :-)



#28 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:36 AM

Btw. I guess these are 2x 4K Rom and 1x 2K Rom right?

 

I'm afraid the pinout of these older roms, do not match the todays Eproms. Am I right with that?

 

Is there a (simple) way to burn OS B? 

 

I now took the NTSC OS B and put it in the PAL 400. I know... I first wanted to keep it original, but I found more titles that go nuts on OS A (like the Extirpator) and I want my 400 to be as compatible as possible. 

 

So if I could burn OS B quite easy, that would be great. 



#29 Rybags ONLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 9:55 AM

Pretty sure the 2K Floating Point section is common from the first 800 through XL and XE.

So you might be able to get away with only needing the main 8K of the OS.



#30 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 10:39 AM

> Btw. I guess these are 2x 4K Rom and 1x 2K Rom right?

 

Yes!

 

I am not that expert on hardware, but eproms are hard to find, as far as I know...

 

> Is there a (simple) way to burn OS B?

 

Well, an eprom burner is needed for that. I am so sorry, but I do not have one. Sorry. :-(

 

> I want my 400 to be as compatible as possible.

 

Well, that is difficult, some software requires 64K, which the 400 does not have. Further the XL- and XE-OS is different.

 

Most compatible is a XE with a Translator Disk to my knowledge, which is not the best.



#31 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 11:15 AM

I have EPROM burner and all the stuff required. Only problem I know is that the pinout probably is different. (Just like the 8K rome atari used in their carts back in the day)

 

I have a huge collection of XL/XE and everything. The 400 is my little friend, and I love it. It's so small and cute. 48K and OS B is enough for now. Runs most games I want it to run. 



#32 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 30, 2014 4:52 PM

Yes, I know, what you mean. Same is true for my 800 in those times. :-)

 

Sorry, but I can't help you with the hardware things. It is the same with NASA, they searched in ebay for the chips, which brought the Shuttle into orbit. Not kidding!



#33 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 31, 2014 5:04 AM

Thanks Marius for the photos!

So, if my interpretation is correct, your units are:
- an 800 from the 22nd week of 1983 (223) with the PAL A OS from the 50th/51th week of 1980 and FP from the 9th week of 1980,
- an 800 from the 5th week of 1982 (052) with the NTSC B OS from the 51th/52th week of 1982 and FP from the 44th week of 1982,
- an 400 from the 5th week of 1983 (053) with the PAL A OS from th1 50th week of 1981 and FP from the 2nd week of 1983.

So, while we don't know for how long the PAL A OS chips were manufactured (the last ones here are from the end of 1981; the NTSC B OS reached the market around Nov. 1981), it looks like they were installed into machines produced well into 1983. So if the PAL B OS reached the market, it would have to be only in the very last machines produced, close to mid-1983, when production of the 400 and the 800 stopped.
 

Pretty sure the 2K Floating Point section is common from the first 800 through XL and XE.

There is a small change in the FP from the 1200XL onwards, a bugfix in the logarithm routine.
 
Marius, if you ever get into burning an EPROM - the PAL OSB ROM has been assembled from sources, I'd suggest you to use that instead of the NTSC OSB.
Attached File  Atari OS Rev B (1981)(Atari)(PAL)(400-800)(assembled).bin   10KB   200 downloads

(Fun fact: Checksum of the PAL OSB image assembled from sources matches the checksum given in the "Atari OS Manual - XL Addendum", so chances are very high that this ROM image would be identical to the actual PAL OSB ROM should it surface.)

#34 ProWizard OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 31, 2014 6:22 AM

Thanks Marius for the photos!

So, if my interpretation is correct, your units are:
- an 800 from the 22nd week of 1983 (223) with the PAL A OS from the 50th/51th week of 1980 and FP from the 9th week of 1980,
- an 800 from the 5th week of 1982 (052) with the NTSC B OS from the 51th/52th week of 1982 and FP from the 44th week of 1982,

- an 400 from the 5th week of 1983 (053) with the PAL A OS from th1 50th week of 1981 and FP from the 2nd week of 1983.
 

 

No... both Atari 800's are PAL with PAL OS A. Well.. that is what they originally were. 

 

The tags on the bottom of the units both show the P after the 800. 

 

Thanks for the OS B file! That is interesting stuff. 



#35 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 31, 2014 7:15 AM

Wow Kr0tki !!!

 

Incredible!!!

 

I can't believe it!  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :) 

 

You are Atari man of the year!

 

Did a check on that rom file:

 

OS B PAL.jpg

 

All(!!!) values are matching, as you described!

 

Get ROM info for file: REVBNTSC.ROM

ROM file CRC: 0x0e86d61d, Atari 400/800 rev.B NTSC

Atari System: 400/800, OS: NTSC rev.B

FCD8 : A2 (400/800 = A2)

FFF8 : F3 (400/800 Rev.A/NTSC = DD, Rev.A/PAL = D6, Rev.B/NTSC = F3, Rev.B/PAL = 22)

           FF OPERATING SYSTEM 255

FFF9 : E6 (400/800 Rev.A = 57, Rev.B = E6 or 58)

FFF1 : 40 (1200XL = 01)

FFF7 : FF (Revision number for XL/XE)

 

What a weekend, you really made my year, not my day! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

 

By the way, because the above OS B NTSC ROMs are PC Xformer patched ones, maybe you can upload the real, original OS B NSTC ROM here, too?

 

We are always in your debt!

 

A Peta-thanks for your help, you will never be forgotten.

 

May god bless you at all times and everywhere.

 



#36 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 31, 2014 8:13 AM

No... both Atari 800's are PAL with PAL OS A.


Of course not! I must have been absent-minded when I wrote that. Okay, your "800 PAL Unit 2" contains OS A PAL ROMs from the 51th/52th week of 1982. This means PAL A ROMs were still being produced way after Atari phased the NTSC A ones out in Nov. 1981. Since they haven't switched to PAL B together with NTSC B and kept producing PAL A ROMs through all of 1982, it seems unlikely that they decided to switch to PAL B in 1983.

EDIT: As for the correct NTSC B ROM image, Freddy Offenga hosts a collection of all Atari ROMS on his website.

Edited by Kr0tki, Sat May 31, 2014 8:23 AM.


#37 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 31, 2014 9:01 AM

O. K.  Kr0tki, you are right, you are Atari man of the decade! :-)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :thumbsup:

 

It was all the time in front me, but I didn't checked it. I am really too old by proof.

 

Incredible, I can't believe it, but it is true. :-)))

 

With this post I deeply apologize myself for the post #13 from: Thu May 29, 2014 1:37 AM.

 

The correct rom file for OS B NTSC is here:

 

Attached File  OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom   10KB   175 downloads

 

I have checked this time all(!) values, whether they are correct. And they are this time.

 

Again, big sorry, shouldn't happen again.

 

Kr0tki again, a double size Peta-thanks to you in the name of the Atari community. We are deep in your debt.

 

A marvelous weekend, you deserve it! Please go ahead with your outstanding work.  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :thumbsup:



#38 JAC! OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014 5:53 AM

Thumbs up Tomasz ! And I thought all the time, my check sum routine still has a bug :-) Now it all looks fine and the computed check sum match the stored check sums.

RomChecker.png

Edited by JAC!, Sun Jun 1, 2014 5:54 AM.


#39 JAC! OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014 4:40 PM

I have reworked my OS ROM Checker and added a structured UI. The first version of my OS ROM Check tools is now available here:
http://www.wudsn.com...-atari800/tools

Just download the .zip and double click the contained .jar. Then you can drag & drop files or folders to scan on the window. It'll compute the correct 3 chip check sums and indicate if there's a mismatch. The now known "genuine" OS versions are also detected based on the CRC32.

Attached Thumbnails

  • RomChecker.png


#40 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014 4:57 PM

So cool! Thank you so much JAC!  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

 

Can take over with the MD5s:

 

 

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom a3c1585b5d19719f8acfa2b093bea75f

OS Rev A (1979) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom eb1f32f5d9f382db1bbfb8d7f9cb343a

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (NTSC) (400-800).rom 4177f386a3bac989a981d3fe3388cb6c

OS Rev B (1981) (Atari) (PAL) (400-800).rom 89d5e5f4713267667ab713449944f8a9 from Kr0tki 

From Abbuc there is a tool for Atari 8 Bit to calculate the CRC...



#41 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 3, 2014 5:43 PM

JAC!, you have too much time on your hands ;-)

I don't see much need for such a specialized tool. Considering that we have the TOSEC project and tools like RomVault, that manage the task of ROM verification way better.

#42 Shannon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 3:26 AM

I'm curious. I have a BIOS image labelled atariosb.rom with a crc of 3e28a1fe.

I'm just wondering what it is...

Thanks

#43 JAC! OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 4:44 AM

I definitively don't have too much time, I only have too much fun coding (resulting in too little time for other things typically) :-). Once I have an idea in my head I have to code it to get it out of there. And Roland (luckybuck) has some talent in poking the right spot.

I remeber I saw TOSEC and RomVault many years ago, but I totally forgot about them. And of course once we know which MD5 is which ROM, that's all we need. But my motivations behind the tool were many:

1) understand this whole OS-A/B mess behind the checksums
2) refactor the UI application framework that I had created for The!Cart Studio (which had grown imensly and I love refatoring)
3) playing around with the idea up running a Java-Applet for some purpose on my web site (which turned out of be impossible)
4) prototype the n-way file comparison that I want to add to my IDE

So when it comes to the "need" for any of these, probably one will have problems finding it. But hey, I'm posting this in a forum for a 30 years old computer :-)

The outcome of 2) so far:
- 250 K com.wudsn.tools.base reusable framework
- 587 K The!Cart Studio actual code (so 1/3rd less)
- 124 K ROM Checker code (less then 1800 lines, which extremely small for a UI application)

I have updated the ROM Checker with the latest results of 1) and 4)
- Edit/Compare Entries action
- Help Dialog
- 2 to 5-way comparison of selected entries

@Shannon: Let's use the Compare Entries against an genuine ROM and see

Menu.png Help.png ComparisonResult.png


Edited by JAC!, Wed Jun 4, 2014 4:45 AM.


#44 Shannon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 5:54 AM

Sure... you want me to compare it to the NTSC OS/B rom I got from the above mentioned site.

#45 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:05 AM

I'm curious. I have a BIOS image labelled atariosb.rom with a crc of 3e28a1fe.

I'm just wondering what it is...

Thanks

That's the hacked rev. B NTSC image from PC Xformer. Already discussed here.

Edited by Kr0tki, Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:05 AM.


#46 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:06 AM

Hi Shannon!

 

At the moment we just have:

 

 

Rev. TV    Date        CRC-32      Part Nr(s)

~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A    NTSC  1979        0xc1b3bb02  CO12499A, CO14599A, CO12399B

A    PAL   1979        0x72b3fed4  CO15199, CO15299, CO12399B

B    NTSC  1981        0x0e86d61d  CO12499B, CO14599B, 12399B

B    PAL   (*)         (*)         (*)

 
Can you make a MD5 check fo your ROM?
 
Best regards and many thanks in advance.


#47 luckybuck OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:09 AM

Did see the answer from from Kr0tki too late, sorry.

 

Anyway, please go ahead, it would be so cool to have a transparency of all Atari sources. To continue then in the Linux philosophy...



#48 Shannon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:21 AM

That's the hacked rev. B NTSC image from PC Xformer. Already discussed here.

Whoops.. don't know how I missed that.

So what exactly did they hack?

Whoops nevermind.. found the original post. That was my initial suspicion. Was there any more information regarding that, like what specifically was changed? I'm just curious.

Well I have the corrected ones now so I'll use those instead.

I wonder if that hack affects any program or game in particular.

Edited by Shannon, Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:23 AM.


#49 Kr0tki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 6:56 AM

I never bothered to check the differences in the Xformer image, but it's only 17 bytes different, so it should be trivial to do. Anyone wanna try?

The file XROMS.S in the source code of ST Xformer 3.00 might or might not help in analysing the differences.

#50 JAC! OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 4, 2014 12:58 PM

Since I didn't know that my ATARIOSB.ROM is not "the real McCoy" until this thread came up, I also wondered.

 

PCXFormer.png

 

PCXFormer-Patches.png

 

The patches ensure that the PIA ($D3xx), esp. PORTB ($D301) is used quite in the way an XL/XE would require it, esp. it's not overwritten by the initialization and the memory test. Also the console "beep" you get by pressing "CTRL-2" is deactivated in the patched version (maybe the coder used ACTION! a lot and was annoyed by the noise :-). This ROM would probably be working quite well in a real Atari XL/XE.

Attached Files


Edited by JAC!, Wed Jun 4, 2014 1:07 PM.






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