When Homebrewers Produce Crap

[ColecoGemini]

 

With the slight difference - compared to back in the days - that we have easy ways to find out if a game is crap or if it's good: The Internets.

Well... sometimes. One of the things that bugs me about certain (not all) homebrew devs is that they shroud their games in secrecy, and don't release a demo or WIP version, and then expect people to plunk down $40+ based on shitty screenshots. At least with most commercial games, if the game sucks, I can return it for a refund. Try that with homebrewers.

[Nebulon]

It really doesn't matter whether or not you're a programmer. Go ahead and request changes. But be certain to keep it as a change request. In other words, be professional about it and simply create a point-form list of preferred changes.

 

The key is to be specific regarding what you'd prefer to have changed, and to stay in the mind-set of, "I prefer this to be added, removed, or changed, but I won't be crushed if the programmer doesn't adhere to it."

 

Keep negative emotions out of it. They don't help the process at all.

 

So, in short, feel free to throw your feedback in there. It's useful to the design process. Some designers/programmers are very open to feedback, and others have difficulty seeing what needs to be changed or recognizing the value of the feedback they receive. That's just the way it goes. If this was a more formal process, then we'd have a regimented QA/QC system in place. Of course, we're talking about homebrew titles here.

 

As others have mentioned, it is useful to determine whether the game is intended to be a free or very inexpensive title -- or if it is slated for packing and full retail. If the intention is to make a 'product' then it's fair to expect the bar to be raised. Typically, the most successful games go through heavy-duty play-testing prior to release (or even the alpha stage).

Edited April 22, 2014 by Nebulon

[desiv]

and then expect people to plunk down $40+ based on shitty screenshots.

I don't get that..

If you spend $40 for something based just on bad screenshots, then you kind of deserve what you get..

 

I never buy something unless I know what it is..

Youtube bids, reviews from people I trust, etc..

If there's not enough info, I don't get it..

 

If someone wants to take the risk, that's fine; but that's why they call it risk...

 

desiv

[robotwo]

As Nebulon mentioned, If you find some game you feel could be better in any way it's always nice if you can give critique in a constructive manner.

Tell them what you feel could be improved and if possible, HOW.

 

Mastering a system and its restrictions is not a simple task and it'll usually take quite some time for someone to make something that's on par with commercially available games.

 

I can agree that many homebrew games could be SO MUCH BETTER, but everybody has to start somewhere.

If you help them by giving honest feedback and critique on how to make the game better both graphically and technically, then you'll probably help them get closer to producing something that's closer to their goal.

 

Remember that most developers want their games to be the best it can be,

but sometimes it's hard to see its shortcomings when you've worked on it for a longer period of time.

 

Just don't get angry if your critique gets overlooked, it's the developer's game in the end and he can do with it as he/ she pleases.

Edited April 22, 2014 by robotwo

[+Gemintronic]

 

And I don't think it's fair to ask people to name names. It's not like we need more shitstorms or forum drama, and as I said in my linked post, I think people who can't see that their games aren't ready for prime time are often the same people who can't tolerate criticism or frustration. Doing good work involves a high tolerance for frustration, after all, and if you don't have that, you're far more likely to say "OK, then it's done -- go me! -- and now, on to my next project" prematurely.

 

In case this was in reference to my previous post I'll bite. The O.P. is taking this as a situation where you can only "call it crap" or "shut up". I say there is a middle ground where you can pay respect by clearly detailing your concerns.

 

Throwing shadow punches at a partially named developer is more than useless. Calling them out is more of the flawed "call it crap" logic too. I say there should be a free exchange of information from gamer to developer without either of those simplistic traps. It's all about constructive, respectful communication.

 

So, I'm not asking the O.P. to name names. In fact I wish he left that point entirely out. Being confused about how to approach an issue and deciding to consult others is usually a good thing. Not qualifying your negative remarks is another.

[+thegoldenband]

^Basically speaking, I can see your point, and sure, there's a middle ground between silence and saying "Your work is total crap".

 

OTOH I have to say that I've seen situations where a developer solicits feedback, people give them extensive suggestions...and then the feedback is completely ignored, because the developer seems gung-ho to announce the game as "finished" and get it on a cart as quickly as possible, as they've grown bored with the project and want to do something else.

 

Personally speaking, I'm just tired of seeing cart releases where it's obvious that no real TLC was put into major aspects of the game. It seems like people are often in a hurry to get their stuff released and "done", but that dynamic makes no sense in homebrewing. There's no financial reason to rush, or at least there shouldn't be.

 

My biggest pet peeve is probably music; after hearing the amazing work done by people like Paul Slocum and Arnauld Chevallier, I don't really have any patience for single-channel, out-of-tune melodies with no envelope shaping that loop after four bars. We can do better than that, collectively speaking.

 

But I have to admit, it also irritates me when people use the default display settings in Batari Basic, for example -- a game deserves to have its own aesthetic and style, and not just depend on prefabricated fonts and display routines -- though if the gameplay is terrific, I can overlook that.

 

EDIT: BTW, do you know who does a great job of putting in the kind of TLC and style I'm talking about? Simone, aka seemo. His games aren't incredibly complex or huge in scope, and they don't push the hardware to the bleeding edge -- but they have tons of style and personality, and feel somehow maximized in proportion to their ambition. In other words, when I play his games I feel that, within the confines of what he's trying to do, he's put real effort into making the game a fully realized vision. And that's something I appreciate a lot.

 

I guess the bottom line is that, naively, I still believe that every homebrew should be something special -- and if it isn't something special, it shouldn't be sold for money. Do I have the right to make that decision for people? Of course not -- but it makes me less interested in the Atari homebrew scene when I see carts coming out left and right, and many of the games they contain simply don't look like serious time and/or skill were invested in making them great, or even average.

[Mr SQL]

In my experience, the retro-gaming community (excluding arcade-specific sites) is characterized by the most friendly and disarming collective personality that I have ever encountered online for any hobby. I’ve spent a lot of time on various other forums, related to subjects such as cars, home recording, songwriting, and photography. Most of these become unbearable due to the egos and a-holes and can only be enjoyed in short spurts before a break is required to regain sanity. In comparison, AtariAge might as well be a hippy love fest.

 

For the most part, that’s great, but I think it’s part of why we see what we see regarding the reception of homebrews. The crowd in general is just too friendly and upbeat to be critical. Plus, I believe there is a strong underlying desire to perpetuate the spirit by nurturing the homebrewer ranks. Maybe it is felt that criticism—even if well justified and gingerly delivered—is counter to the overarching objective of keeping homebrew development as unintimidating, inviting, and therefore widespread as possible.

 

 

Awesome post Cynicaster!

 

AtariAge truly feels like the 80's where everyone is smiling and everything is fun - it captures the ambiance and the essence of fun and community in gaming!

 

 

Ditto for programmers at AtariAge! Folks have the same wonderful supportive attitude as the engineers and programmers in the early computing clubs of the late 70's and 80's - back then we only had to contend with Bill writing nasty letters and raining on our parade.

 

Today everyone treats programmers Gates style; like they're no longer individuals or the awesome human beings they are, and popular cultural movies have reflected these unfortunate changing trends with satire that is increasingly no longer satirical in today's sweatshops:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Ot1OEfk9I

 

Perhaps nothing epitomises the difference in feel from the 80's as the two Tron movies; the former is cheery, happy, colourful and creative with a wonderful ending while the latter is dismal, dark and dreary with recycled themes and a depressing Dillingeresque ending.

[wolfy62]

For whatever it's worth, here's my opinion on the matter, as someone who dabbles in the homebrew space whenever I have the time:

 

Homebrewing for vintage platforms is becoming an increasingly crowded field, so much so that I would be flattered if someone took enough notice of something that I created to be motivated to offer feedback. For games in progress that have been posted to a place like AtariAge, there's not much point in worrying whether the feedback is "unsolicited" or "uninvited"; after all, if the authors didn't want feedback, they wouldn't have posted their games on a public forum.

 

Ideally, any feedback offered should be respectful and constructive, instead of something like "sorry, but that totally blows!", which is non-specific and insulting all at once. What kind of feedback would be most constructive depends on what the programmers are after. If they're creating the games solely for their own enjoyment, your feedback should be motivated to help the authors realize their vision to its fullest potential, even if it is different from your own vision. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be glad to accept feedback offered in that spirit.

 

Games that are created to be offered as commercial products are a different story. One of the reasons that homebrew has become so big is because some see it as a quick way to cash in on the retro gaming fad, and unfortunately, rapid development tools like Batari Basic only make this easier. We all know of the more cynical attempts, such as N.E.R.D.S. and The Last Ninja. As Nathan Strum correctly says in his negative review, those games turned out so badly in part because they were developed in a vacuum, without exposure to constructive feedback. His review was a kind of "feedback" that had to come after the fact, but I think it was an important service, because it helped to steer collectors clear of those particular games.

 

As I've said, feedback can help to improve a game, but sometimes it can (and should!) be used to help kill bad games before anyone unwittingly spends their hard-earned money on them. If a bad game gets nothing but unconditional praise from the community during its development, out of fear that real criticism would hurt the author's feelings, collectors who then pay for it would have a right to feel let down by the community and probably wouldn't be too eager to buy another game, which only hurts the hobby as a whole. Games that are destined to be offered commercially should be held to a higher standard, for everyone's sake.

Right on comment!

[Jess Ragan]

I dread the reaction my games will get after they're released. If you'll recall, I released Solar Plexus for the 2600 about nine years ago. I enjoyed making it, but it wasn't well received. It got 2 stars on AtariAge (from the guy who colored and shaded the cartridge art! Augh!) and Joe Santulli described it as a "poor man's Solar Fox." The game has its fans- it's extremely simple but also extremely FAST- but even I wouldn't give it more than a six out of ten in hindsight. Batari BASIC was limited at the time, but I also made a lot of dumb mistakes I wouldn't make a second time (that asinine in-joke mini-game being on the top of that list. 4K available and I put in a mini-game?! Talk about hubris).

 

GBA Gorf was better received; it was a labor of love and it showed in all the attention to detail I put into it. I think you could objectively say that it was the best home port of the game, or at the least the best one after the Jaguar version. Then again, the Game Boy Advance is a much wider canvas than the 2600, and there was a lot I could do with the system that I just couldn't with the 2600. At any rate, I'm grateful (and relieved) that people liked it.

 

I worry a little about how my next game, Bear Arms, will be perceived when/if it's released. It's a new property, not a port, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to find that magic hook that will keep players coming back for more. Also, there's a pretty good chance players will hate the lead character... furries don't go over well with a mainstream audience, although when you're making a game for the Atari 7800, marketability is the least of your worries. Solar Plexus tanked in the AtariAge store, and I suspect this won't do much better. Nobody can retire on what they've made from the sales of a game for a thirty year console anyway. If I have fun making this, and some people have fun playing it, that's what counts.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Jess Ragan

[+thegoldenband]

GBA Gorf was better received; it was a labor of love and it showed in all the attention to detail I put into it. I think you could objectively say that it was the best home port of the game, or at the least the best one after the Jaguar version. Then again, the Game Boy Advance is a much wider canvas than the 2600, and there was a lot I could do with the system that I just couldn't with the 2600. At any rate, I'm grateful (and relieved) that people liked it.

 

You did one hell of a good job on that port, both in the core gameplay and in all the extras you added. Indeed, I was recently thinking about it, and decided it was an excellent reason to get around to buying a GBA flash cart.

[+Gemintronic]

My fear is that we have two concerning attitudes: Those who feel they can only be negative (but not descriptive) or not have any input at all. The other camp wishes for higher quality but fears contributing their concerns will deteriorate the homebrew community.. which ends up deteriorating the community because nothing ever progresses.

[boxpressed]

The very fact that we are discussing this on the Atari Age forums puts more responsibility on the buyer. That is, ample resources exist to learn more about a game, and the last resort is still a pretty good choice--start a topic thread on a particular game. You may not get the most honest answers, but if *no one* gushes about the game, then you should consider yourself forewarned.

 

There is one big condition, however, and that is whether there is time pressure to buy a homebrew. So you have to "preorder" or you will be shut out completely and have to pay inflated prices on eBay. I imagine that a lot of crap is bought this way, and the fault is now not wholly on the buyer.

[+Gemintronic]

I've noticed a general lowering of gaming standards when talking about homebrew or indie games. Maybe it's the 'if you can't say anything nice' crowd not participating because the author is often in direct communication. That tends to be how I handle the topic of homebrew games that I'm not interested in--I just keep it quiet.

 

I know I'm not the inspiration for this thread, but I'm guilty of putting out terrible homebrew. I knew it wasn't great at the time, but it was the first time I thought about even simple gaming concepts. If I had gotten the slamming that the game pretty well deserves, I might have stopped right there. Mind that I'm still terrible, but what I put out is generally the best I can produce at the time.

 

I will say that for me, making something fun is every bit as hard as the technical details of making something that functions. For the longest time I've been wanting to make an ice fishing game so I can say "it's the best ice fishing game you've ever played." If anybody knows how to make ice fishing even slightly fun (without beer), I'm all ears.

 

I think part of enjoying a game is also context. I think most of us have seen the video where some young reviewer just can't grasp Sprybug's interpretation of Sonic the Hedgehog for the 2600. If I didn't know the constraints in the system you were targeting - or how hard it is to fit a complete game in 10 lines - I may consider your work "crap". I'd also be pretty narrow minded.

[darthkur]

 

GBA Gorf was better received; it was a labor of love and it showed in all the attention to detail I put into it. I think you could objectively say that it was the best home port of the game, or at the least the best one after the Jaguar version. Then again, the Game Boy Advance is a much wider canvas than the 2600, and there was a lot I could do with the system that I just couldn't with the 2600. At any rate, I'm grateful (and relieved) that people liked it.

 

I worry a little about how my next game, Bear Arms, will be perceived when/if it's released. It's a new property, not a port, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to find that magic hook that will keep players coming back for more. Also, there's a pretty good chance players will hate the lead character... furries don't go over well with a mainstream audience, although when you're making a game for the Atari 7800, marketability is the least of your worries. Solar Plexus tanked in the AtariAge store, and I suspect this won't do much better. Nobody can retire on what they've made from the sales of a game for a thirty year console anyway. If I have fun making this, and some people have fun playing it, that's what counts.

 

 

 

You did one hell of a good job on that port, both in the core gameplay and in all the extras you added. Indeed, I was recently thinking about it, and decided it was an excellent reason to get around to buying a GBA flash cart.

 

 

I love Gorf on the GBA! I'm still overjoyed someone had the stones to finally make a complete version of that game, especially with all of the meaningless BS that surrounded the Jag version. I also like Solar Plexus. I think it's quite challenging. Looking forward to Bear Arms.

[+Gemintronic]

I believe Gorf GBA at least started with DragonBASIC. Kind of like a batari BASIC except neglected and (sometimes) buggy

 

High level languages don't necessarily mean crap games. It means beginners can work there way up from barely presentable to arcade quality.

 

(not that anyone here said otherwise. Just stating what Gorf GBA means to me)

[Reaperman]

 

If I didn't know the constraints in the system you were targeting - or how hard it is to fit a complete game in 10 lines - I may consider your work "crap". I'd also be pretty narrow minded.

 

I guess my point was that I was glad nobody cut on it, or me for trying out something new. Sometimes the people who make 'not the greatest' game, kind of already know it's not stellar--they're pleased that they've made something that works. That's a pretty neat thing on its own sometimes, and they'll want to share. Nobody crushed my dreams for it (which might have really bummed me out), and a few days later I had a better one ready.

 

I had to look up that 2600 zippy video. Even having prepared myself for it, I was pretty surprised by the commentary. I'm going to guess that's a pretty atypical reaction.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Reaperman

[desiv]

There is one big condition, however, and that is whether there is time pressure to buy a homebrew. So you have to "preorder" or you will be shut out completely and have to pay inflated prices on eBay. I imagine that a lot of crap is bought this way, and the fault is now not wholly on the buyer.

No, that's still totally on the buyer..

You don't have to buy it...

 

If you decide to buy something without seeing it play (because you HAD to pre-order or you wouldn't get it) and it sucks, that's still totally on you...

 

desiv

[+Gemintronic]

I think Reaperman was in one of those situations where you don't want blunt feedback. I agree beginners are not ready for that. I don't agree that his game was crap (even though he'll state otherwise)

 

So, let's turn this around. If I were going to release one of the games in my sig what kind of process should be in place to make sure y'all get your feedback in?

 

Feel free to treat each of my games as an upcoming release and make sure I know what bugs or delights you about them. Even if the changes don't get in a new revision it'll improve subsequent games. Perhaps as important OTHER homebrewers will notice your comments and take them into consideration.

[+DZ-Jay]

Theloon is right, praise is awesome, but constructive criticism is what makes us better.

 

Without trying to hijack this thread, and I hope it's fine with theloon, I would also like to request feedback from the community for my Intellivision game "Christmas Carol vs. The Ghost Of Christmas Presents."

 

As to the question at hand, during the development of my game, I created a "beta-testers" mailing list, which turned into a sort of "announce" list since only a small set of the subscribers actually did any testing.

 

This allowed me to get real-time feedback on the progress of the game, as features were added and bugs were squashed.

 

I also tried to be very accessible, and ran around the Interwebs participating in any discussion regarding my game, to make sure others new that their voices were being heard.

 

However, I don't think this is sufficient. I think that there's an implicit fear (at least in the Intellivision community) of pissing off the developer, and he going "soup nazi" on you; and so this changes the dynamics of the conversation.

 

Eventually, what you get is a lot of faint praise (along with some really enthusiastic ones, one hopes), with possibly the only negative feedback being some rather nasty vitriol from those who really hated the game, have an axe to grind, or otherwise want to vent some frustration.

 

Or worse, you get *crickets*.

 

How do we encourage feedback, both good and bad, in a community with such passionate enthusiasm, where the thought of hurting someone's feelings, or the fear of subsequent retaliation, are prime concerns?

 

dZ.

[+Gemintronic]

Actually, this brings up a critical point. People will often give up if they have to search for your game ROM. Even worse, if the link is broken no one will speak up. They are under no obligation to say so but speaking up helps everyone enjoy homebrew more.

 

In this case, the link isn't broken. It was a little hard to find with all the colors and text in the web site

http://www.carolvsghost.com/pg_game.html#download-rom

[jaybird3rd]

How do we encourage feedback, both good and bad, in a community with such passionate enthusiasm, where the thought of hurting someone's feelings, or the fear of subsequent retaliation, are prime concerns?

Here's a thought (although the moderators or Albert will have to say whether it's possible): AtariAge could set up a "Homebrew Feedback" subforum, in which homebrew authors can start threads about their projects and even post ROMs for the purpose of eliciting open feedback, and in which all replies to the threads (other than the original posters') are automatically posted anonymously. This way, commenters can be free to post honest feedback without any concern about retaliation or damaging their relationships with other members. Perhaps this could even be made a "Subscribers Only" feature, to encourage those who wish to participate in homebrew development, but who aren't programmers themselves, to support AtariAge.

[+Gemintronic]

Here's a thought (although the moderators or Albert will have to say whether it's possible): AtariAge could set up a "Homebrew Feedback" subforum, in which homebrew authors can start threads about their projects and even post ROMs for the purpose of eliciting open feedback, and in which all replies to the threads are automatically posted anonymously. This way, commenters can be free to post honest feedback without any concern about retaliation or damaging their relationships with other members. Perhaps this could even be made a "Subscribers Only" feature, to encourage those who wish to participate in homebrew development, but who aren't programmers themselves, to support AtariAge.

 

I don't think the burden of payment should be on the voluntary testers and critics. Rather, for better exposure and feedback the homebrewers should be subscribers to get a game on the "Homebrew Spotlight" center. Should have categories like "beta" and "final".

 

UPDATE: I forgot to point out that I think the idea as a whole is AWESOME!!

[jaybird3rd]

I don't think the burden of payment should be on the voluntary testers and critics. Rather, for better exposure and feedback the homebrewers should be subscribers to get a game on the "Homebrew Spotlight" center. Should have categories like "beta" and "final".

Yeah, that's a good point. Plus, limiting it to subscribers might be too restricting: for an idea like this to work, the pool of testers needs to be as large as possible.

[+DZ-Jay]

Actually, this brings up a critical point. People will often give up if they have to search for your game ROM. Even worse, if the link is broken no one will speak up. They are under no obligation to say so but speaking up helps everyone enjoy homebrew more.

 

In this case, the link isn't broken. It was a little hard to find with all the colors and text in the web site

http://www.carolvsghost.com/pg_game.html#download-rom

Thanks for that, but the link works for me, so I don't see the problem. It should take you to the "Free ROM Download " section with the file links. What are you getting?

[+DZ-Jay]

UPDATE: I forgot to point out that I think the idea as a whole is AWESOME!!

I concur!