Very strange colors from a PAL light sixer.

[Raticon]

Okay folks, i'll appreciate any help or advice here.

I recently got a "Light Sixer" Atari 2600 from an auction, together with 21 games. I later bought 19 more games for it over the internet.
So with 40 games, armed with a pair of paddles, one old original joystick and one new 3rd-party lookalike i started checking the games out.

A sticker on the bottom of the console itself tells me its made by "Atari-Wong Ltd" in Hong Kong with a long serial number and a list of patents and the model number "CX-2600 P" which i guess the P stands for PAL.
I live in Sweden ( PAL-country ) so this is all fine and dandy. When i open up the console to clean it and check the "color-screw" i find a small sticker telling me "March 1981" or something, presumably the manufacturing date.

The problems come when i start up some of the games i bought. I am sorry for the bad image quality but i took photos with my phone.

COMBAT, Realsports Tennis, Air Sea Battle and Space Attack are all in black and white only, like the picture below. Sometimes i get a flicker of strange color when i turn the console on and off several times.


As i understand it this is because these games are NTSC that somehow made their way over the atlantic and there is nothing to do about it.

Now the real funny stuff begins when i put in games that supposedly are PAL:
In "Donkey Kong" DK himself is a big green monster, Mario is dressed in brown and the floor is bright red almost pink.


In "Bowling" the bowler himself has green skin like an "Ork" from Warhammer 40k or something. He's all dressed in pink, the pins and score is pink too and the floor has a color that looks like vomit.


in "PAC-MAN" the background is eye-burning pink and Pac-man himself, the ghosts, walls and small dots are all white or gray. I usually play it in black and white with the black background instead.


in "Berzerk" there's more pink. The walls are all pink, the robots are all grey, dark green or purple. The players character is bright green.


However in Ms. Pac-Man, Jr. Pac-Man, Asteroids, Defender, Missile Command, another "Combat" labeled "Combat P" and some other games the colors are perfectly fine,
while in others the colors are kind of right only slightly darker or in a slightly different hue.
On my Flashback 4 i have "Bowling" and there the character looks more human and not green-skinned with pink clothes, other games have perfect color on the Flashback but looks off on the light sixer.
I played the other games not present on the FB4 on an Atari Emulator and googled pictures of them and saw that the colors are completely different there with nice blue walls in "Berzerk" for example.

I have tried opening up the console and turning the "color-screw" on the metal box but that only makes the game either black & white, saturates the colors to the point my eyes hurt or alters the colors to even more random and stupid ones.

Is this normal for a PAL console? Is the "color screw" or my RF-cable busted? Are these games broken? Please help me!

Edited May 31, 2014 by Raticon

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It looks like your carts are NTSC carts.

 

The colors of Bowling and Pac-Man are definitely showing this. And the B/W games are resulting from odd scanlines created by NTSC games.

 

So the problem is not your console, but the carts.

[Raticon]

Oh. I thought NTSC games would display only in black and white and not have any colors besides that. Weird.

 

Well, the Donkey Kong game does say "Made in USA by COLECO" so that kinda explain things...

[+SpiceWare]

I have a page, Atari NTSC vs PAL vs SECAM, that might be helpful.

[Raticon]

Alright. I Used the info on your excellent page, SpiceWare, and with the newfound knowledge that some NTSC-carts played on a PAL machine renders sometimes wrong colors and sometimes in black & white i sat down and played every single of the 40 games i own and sorted them according to PAL or NTSC.

The results aren't pretty. 22 of the games are in NTSC. All of them are playable if one can tolerate the stupid colors or that the game is black and white.
18 of the games are PAL and play correctly. Some of the games have "P" in the name such as "Combat P" or "Missile Command P" and some of them have it in their number eg. "CX2612 P" or something like that while some of them doesnt show that they are PAL or NTSC on the label. You know when you actually play them.

This is very disappointing for me. I bought the games from a trusted e-store that said that the games will work on a PAL machine. Well... they work and all... but they have the wrong colors, sometimes only black and white.
The store says they only guarantee that the games WORK on a given console, but not that the colors should be right or wrong and they "can't check if games are PAL or NTSC". That's bulls**t! Just plug it into a console and check!

Guess it's back to Flashback consoles for me...

Edited May 31, 2014 by Raticon

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Are the wrong games from the 1st batch or from the 2nd one?

 

If it is a trusted store, they should accept that you give them back the non-working carts and give you an adequate refund. Else you should give some negative feedback if possible.

[Raticon]

The first batch are the games that came with the console, it was from an auction and a private seller. Almost every game that came with the console is PAL but there was some NTSC games there as well.

From the store there was probably about 16 or so games that were NTSC. I contacted them on their chat and they told me they only guarantee that the games work and they do not take responsibility if the games are NTSC or PAL as they claim they cannot check if the games are PAL or NTSC.

I told them that it's really simple to check. Most games that are PAL have a capital "P" in the games end-label or in the games serial number like many of my games,
and if it doesn't show a capital P on the label or number you start the game on a PAL console and if the colors are stupid or if it's black and white it's a NTSC game and should be sold at a vastly reduced price as we have PAL-standard here. I also told them that there is a great site called AtariAge (shameless advertising ) where one can check screenshots and info.
They answered that it's my responsibility to know what i am buying. No refunds as they only guarantee that the games actually work, they don't guarantee PAL or NTSC standard.

I proceeded to give them bottom-low rating wherever i could.

[+SpiceWare]

Look into getting a Harmony Cart for your Atari. Learn more about it in the manual and dedicated forum.

[Raticon]

Yeah i read about that one earlier. Looks really cool! But i guess it's like having a Flashback console; you can play all the good games in proper color and everything but it still leaves your bookshelves empty and deserted, and i want to have at least the common basic titles on it as i feel there's nothing more satisfying than browsing trough the shelf and picking out a game, feeling the "click" and hearing the good old "katchunk!" when plugging a cartridge in your old console. I mean, if using a harmony cart, could one not just order a CX40-joystick with USB and play emulators on the PC with screen filters?

I will be getting a harmony cart nevertheless, if i own a legitimate copy of a cartridge i feel no harm in downloading a ROM and put it on the harmony cart to spare the old cartridges some wear and tear and being able to play it in PAL.

Well, in other news... Anyone looking to trade 22 NTSC cartridges to 22 PAL ones?

Edited May 31, 2014 by Raticon

[+SpiceWare]

I've 300+ cartridges, so it doesn't stop you from building your collection.

 

It's also useful for testing new games that are under development, providing feedback is a great way to contribute back to the community.

[Bnicke]

A NTSC console whith a NTSC cart and a PAL TV will almost always be in black&white because most PAL TV:s from the 80:s and forward can handle 60hz but not the color ecoding in the NTSC system.. it usually works with SCART with RGB but an Atari does not have RGB output. Of cource there are more expensive TV:s and "studio monitors" that will fully work with NTSC.

Older TV might not handle 60hz, then the picture will "roll".

With a PAL console and NTCS game the signal will be in PAL but as explained in the thread earlier hardware differencies and timing (due to 50/60hz) will be an issue for the console.

[Steel76]

I bought the games from a trusted e-store that said that the games will work on a PAL machine. Well... they work and all... but they have the wrong colors, sometimes only black and white.

The store says they only guarantee that the games WORK on a given console, but not that the colors should be right or wrong and they "can't check if games are PAL or NTSC". That's bulls**t! Just plug it into a console and check!

Guess it's back to Flashback consoles for me...

Was the store "Spelfyndet"?

Those bastards are only selling NTSC carts, even though all their consoles are Pal. Noticed this after buying a bunch of games and none of them was Pal. So there is probably lots of people that bought games from them and thought that their consoles has gone bad.

The same goes for the carts they put on "Tradera".

Last time I ever bought from them.

 

Check out kaptenkrok.se or conceptentertainment.se instead

[Raticon]

I have bought some of my games from "Spelfyndet" and even though i don't remember exactly which ones i do believe most of them was NTSC if not all of them. I checked some of their carts on "Tradera" and they write, quote (translated):

 

"THE GAME IS NTSC/PAL"

I believe they should check if the games are ntsc or pal and advertise them correctly as there is a big difference in how the game looks and plays on a PAL console. Its not hard to check, just test it in a console.

 

EDIT: I have emailed them asking them to list games as pal or ntsc. Until then i probably will not order from them anymore as its quite a hazard as you never know if a pal or ntsc game.

 

How does so many NTSC games end up in the middle of the holy land of PAL anyway?

 

I think conceptentertainment.se is way too expensive. Seriously, 99 SEK (15$) for "Air Sea Battle" cart only and no box, manual or anything. Although they guarantee its PAL.

 

Kaptenkrok.se had better prices with around 69 SEK per game (about 10$) even though they have very limited stock with nearby everything "out of stock".

 

Gameworld sell lots of PAL games for nice prices on Tradera but they ship from Germany meaning long shipping times sometimes.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Raticon

[Steel76]

Yeah, I mostly buy from Gameworld, but I have always gotten them within 2-3 weekdays

[SoulBlazer]

 

How does so many NTSC games end up in the middle of the holy land of PAL anyway?

 

Holy land?

 

If Europe IS a holy land, it's mostly cause of one reason that I think so many NTSC carts are there -- US troops. They would bring their game systems and games with them, or ask people to mail them from home.

 

Also, I strongly suspect that many people were importing games due to better prices or the game not being released in PAL format.

Edited June 6, 2014 by SoulBlazer

[Trinity]

I'd 'man up' and buy/save a NTSC console to to play them darn games...LOL

Edited June 7, 2014 by Trinity

[Raticon]

As i understand it, it is very hard to get it to work properly with NTSC console here in Sweden. First off our power sockets look different than US ones, and our have 220 volts while the US standard is 110v if i remember correctly, then you have to find a suitable TV which can accept the different signal and display correctly.

 

I wish there was some kind of adapter that goes into the cartridge port that successfully read NTSC carts and manager to convert the games output to PAL but that is perhaps technically impossible.

 

It would open for many more good games as well as help with the problems with colors and display Hz.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Raticon

[Trinity]

Well this would convert the power for a TV and the VCS,

http://www.amazon.com/International-Voltage-Converter-appliances-overseas/dp/B000WQ0MTG

 

Finding an old TV would be pretty cheap, Shipping on the other hand... But think for a moment, You could be the only collector in Sweden with NTSC VCS and TV! And there is the fact that the color on NTSC VCS is just better than PAL.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Trinity

[Steel76]

Yeah, just buy an power converter, they are cheap and easy to find in most hardware store. And most TV:s over here, since back in the 90:s, can also display NTSC correctly. Though get a NTSC console that has been AV modded (composite or s-video), since the rf plug on an american console don't match the ones we have over here. Might be a converter avalible for that as well though. Then you can play the games in the correct 60hz speed instead of the slower 50hz we had

Edited June 8, 2014 by Steel76

[alex_79]

And most TV:s over here, since back in the 90:s, can also display NTSC correctly

That's true for baseband NTSC (that is, composite or s-video), but only a few multistandard TVs can decode it through RF. So an A/V would solve the problem and in that case a power converter isn't really needed for the console because you can just use the power supply from the PAL one.

[Raticon]

Well that makes things vastly more interesting! I better start looking for an NTSC VCS now that i know that my TV should handle it and that i can find a 220v -> 110v converter.

 

Come to think about it, there is some really strange standard going around where older electric shavers here use 110v and most older bathrooms have a 110v outlet next to the mirror.

 

Now, as NTSC carts here seems almost as common as PAL ones one must assume there should be consoles lying around as well.

 

Thus, my mission begins!