Does anyone make new Atari 8-bit cartridge shells?

[peteym5]

Most of the PCBs are about 3 millimeters narrower than the cartridge shell, so that leave some room for screw holes/tab holes on the sides. The WIlliams PCB boards fits flush to the corners of the cartridge shell so that right there prevents them from wiggling around. However Video61 is the only person I know that has those in stock. It may not be too hard to make an universal shell that can hold PCB boards, I would put any screw holes or tabs on the sides because not all the PCBs have a central screw hole like Atari and Williams cartridges. The only way to make these also able to hold a Williams Board is have it held together where I put the red dots in the picture. The XEGS boards Brian made up just need the central screw hole, and some tabs on the back. Some PCBs may flop around so you may need something under the boards to support what ever is inside it.

 

Edit, we tried to use the Williams shells for other boards, they will just flop around too much.

Edited December 22, 2015 by peteym5

[_The Doctor__]

no reason small screws could not be used in the corner to hold the together, A peg into hole affair could work as well but they wear out if opened and closed to many times

[gozar]

I'm working with a plastics manufacturer right now to see how feasible it would be to get molds made and new cartridge shells. From the preliminary pricing, looks like at least $5K to get set up.

[Dropcheck]

Let us work together to come up with a cart shell that has the support posts in it that can be snapped off to handle different pcb configs... the posts would be present for known pcb types and spacings with a few auxiliary posts for generic pcb's

 

A pair of flush nippers to remove the ones each project does not need and your golden... pass thru slot in the top with tabs like orion/sparta but no lip or ledge

 

If you don't need the pass thru, nip the tabs, a light file or sanding and cover with label... now every cart type is covered... no more mus or fuss.... universal cart shell.... everyone wins!

Not if I have to put in hours nipping and filing and sanding the shells. A paper label covering a 2 or 3 mm gap on top is not going to work. That's not no muss or fuss. Sorry.

 

The most I should have to do is set a 'standard' shaped pcb inside and screw/press or glue the two halves together and slap a label on it. It should fit all versions of Atari 8bit without further modifcation. There should be ridges on the sides so you don't loose your grip when you pull the cart out of the slot. That is a universal cart shell. I doubt no one else will have an opinon.

 

But then who determines a 'standard' shaped pcb. What if I need the length of the KM-20 shells? Or the depth of the original brown Atari shells? What if I do need the pass through slot in the top? What if I hate blue? Are there going to be two universal cart designs? Three? Four?

 

Design by committee is usually bad. But what if someone dictates and most are not happy with the 'standard'. It can get messy.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Dropcheck

[Dropcheck]

I'm working with a plastics manufacturer right now to see how feasible it would be to get molds made and new cartridge shells. From the preliminary pricing, looks like at least $5K to get set up.

 

What are the dimensions? Both inside and out. What color? What are the inside pcb supports like? How are the two halves closed? By screw, lips or glue? How many have to be ordered?

 

What is the time line for production?

 

I'm not trying to be obnoxious. If you know, it would help me decide whether I would help with the cost.

[Mathy]

Hello Lenore, guys

 

Sanding, nipping and filing should be kept to a minimum. It shouldn't be to hard to come op with a cartridge shell, that requires minimum adaptation. And maybe we could come up with a shell that holds the PCB not by its sides, like some do, but by the top and bottom. Most PCB's are equal in thickness, but not in width. "Pass-through" could be just a lip that can be either injection moulded separately or of the "break out" type. If somebody needs the length of a KM-20 shell, why use a universal cartridge shell? The colo(u)r chosen should be a neutral and Atari worthy one.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

http://www.techkits.com/

your very own injection moulding machine there are cheaper ones out there but model 20A has a decent reputation at about 500 dollars give or take...

anybody with a cnc machine or nearby machine shop can make the moulds very little dinaro.... plastics aren't much either but...you would have to shop around.... 300 to 600 dollar investment depending on what you find and buy... plastic prices vary greatly from dirt cheap china stuff to 20 a bottle boutique united states specialty mixes

 

I am sure some one will complain they can't just flip it open and have a fully formed and finished cart with all the internals programmed in it already as if by magic...but

for the hobbiests on AtariAge the whole I need to spend 100 dollars to case my pcb pbi cart etc etc is solved and pays for itself after about 50 or more units of something are made.....

 

This is something you might consider... good for small batches... squeezing them out while watching a show on tv isn't that big a bother.... whatever color you want.... you can automate the process by using a cnc machine to do the mundane trimming etc.... it does not takes hours to file/smooth edges or nip tabs by hand.. it takes seconds but thats just me... some of us have more time than money you know....

 

if you want to go all out have the money and space...

http://www.usedplasticinjectionmoldingmachines.com/

 

a zillion screaming chinese manufacturers can make them super cheap but you take your chances sometimes

Edited December 23, 2015 by _The Doctor__

[_The Doctor__]

Mathy as always is the voice of reason and makes a great deal of sense!

 

He always seems to have good ideas!

[+ZuluGula]

Doctor, it's not as easy as you make it. Watch this video.

[Shawn Jefferson]

Off topc: I have one of those first things he made in the video, it's called the Game Gripper, a gaming keyboard overlay for the Nokia N900. Works great.

[+ZuluGula]

Another method of producing short run of one of the kind shells, like those used for SpartaDOS X, could be silicone molds and resin casting. The initial cost of tools and materials will be much lower but the whole process is much more time consuming, thou it's more waiting time than work time. Here's a video showing whole process:

 

 

Using this method, someone with 3D drawing skills and access to relatively inexpensive CNC router, mill or 3D printer could make some prototypes or even small volume production of new plastics in the corner of home office.

 

For inspiration, pleas look at this website http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/rstory/, just look at the quality and detail of the plastic parts this man was able to achieve right on top of his desk. With those tools, I'm thinking about new front bezel for 1050 with MegaSpeedy control panel or new plastic case for SIO2SD styled like XE or XL Ataris.

[Dropcheck]

Hello Lenore, guys

 

Sanding, nipping and filing should be kept to a minimum. It shouldn't be to hard to come op with a cartridge shell, that requires minimum adaptation. And maybe we could come up with a shell that holds the PCB not by its sides, like some do, but by the top and bottom. Most PCB's are equal in thickness, but not in width. "Pass-through" could be just a lip that can be either injection moulded separately or of the "break out" type. If somebody needs the length of a KM-20 shell, why use a universal cartridge shell? The colo(u)r chosen should be a neutral and Atari worthy one.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

 

Hi Mathy,

 

The point I was trying to make was that when you say universal, it gets complicated real quick. Some projects can fit on the standard sized Atari pcb, others need more room. A universal shell has to accommodate pcb lengths upto the KM-20 sizes and have the depth of a brown Atari shell or it's not a universal shell.

 

The KM-20 shells only have a depth of about 9 mm per half. The Atari brown shells max out at 10.5mm That seems like a very small difference, but not when you are trying to source parts. Every .5 mm makes a difference. I ran into this sourcing parts for the Super SpartaDOS cartridge. The cheaper parts(not cheaper made) were too tall to fit the shell. It seemed as you reduced the height, the cost of the part went up. It would have been nice to have the length of the KM-20 shell with the depth of the brown Atari shells. tf_hh was able to get everything into the original SpartaDOS shell, but just barely. The SMD passive parts went down to 0805 size. That's about the smallest that anyone can hand solder more than once.

 

But by the same token the bigger the size of the pcb the more cost and not every project needs the length. If you only need 1 chip and a few passives, why get stuck paying for 30 or 40 mm of board space you will never use. Although _The_Doctor_ suggested breakaway or cutouts that creates more work for the individual because of the clipping, sanding and filing. How about a two tiered approach.

 

Take a shell with the inside dimensions of 85mm X 62mm x 10mm. (LXWXD) Now that's too big usually for simple game carts. But about right if you are trying to do utility or hardware interfacing. Separate lengthwise into two chambers. The lower would accomodate the majority of uses ie games and the upper half would give the extra length needed for other uses. The tabs stick out from the walls of the shell far enough to provide a bracing top edge to the game pcb and a hard right angle to prevent side to side movememt. That gives you a standard 40 mm length and 62 mm width for your game pcb when you subtract the pcb extension for the cartridge plug. Anything south of the horizontal line is dedicated to the cartridge slot mating. No screw. Using the KM-20 system of interlocking edge tabs you can glue/cement the two halves together. But what about the upper chamber. Here's where the universality comes in. PCBs can be shaped much easier than shells. How about a pcb shape that routes around the two internal tabs. I've done a rough design. It needs much more work, but I wanted to show what I meant if words do not convey the idea well.

 

No clipping, no sanding at least for the internal. It doesn't account for a slot in the top for a pass through, It does need more work.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Dropcheck

[peteym5]

I looked at the 3D printer option again. Some had dropped under $500 and the spools run around $25. You might get several cartridge shells per spool. depending on how you design it. But this is something viable if you only sell just a hand full of cartridges. We sold around 50 Venture and 90 90 Tempest Xtremes so far.

 

What would the total cost for someone if they did this Silicone mode method and made up lets say 1000 shells?

 

Maybe need to set up a pre-order type thing and ask how many each person would want to by to divide the costs among them.

[+MacRorie]

But by the same token the bigger the size of the pcb the more cost and not every project needs the length. If you only need 1 chip and a few passives, why get stuck paying for 30 or 40 mm of board space you will never use. Although _The_Doctor_ suggested breakaway or cutouts that creates more work for the individual because of the clipping, sanding and filing. How about a two tiered approach.

 

Take a shell with the inside dimensions of 85mm X 62mm x 10mm. (LXWXD) Now that's too big usually for simple game carts. But about right if you are trying to do utility or hardware interfacing. Separate lengthwise into two chambers. The lower would accomodate the majority of uses ie games and the upper half would give the extra length needed for other uses. The tabs stick out from the walls of the shell far enough to provide a bracing top edge to the game pcb and a hard right angle to prevent side to side movememt. That gives you a standard 40 mm length and 62 mm width for your game pcb when you subtract the pcb extension for the cartridge plug. Anything south of the horizontal line is dedicated to the cartridge slot mating. No screw. Using the KM-20 system of interlocking edge tabs you can glue/cement the two halves together. But what about the upper chamber. Here's where the universality comes in. PCBs can be shaped much easier than shells. How about a pcb shape that routes around the two internal tabs. I've done a rough design. It needs much more work, but I wanted to show what I meant if words do not convey the idea well.

 

No clipping, no sanding at least for the internal. It doesn't account for a slot in the top for a pass through, It does need more work.

 

I like this. I was trying to figure out how to house the R-time 8 replacement I made and--once it gets a passthrough added --this type of thing would work very nicely for me as well. Please let me know what I can do to help.

[lbaeza]

Another method of producing short run of one of the kind shells, like those used for SpartaDOS X, could be silicone molds and resin casting. The initial cost of tools and materials will be much lower...

Ivop already tried this and documented it here http://atariage.com/forums/blog/293/entry-10952-making-you-own-polyurethane-cartridge-cases/

Regards

[peteym5]

Ivop already tried this and documented it here http://atariage.com/forums/blog/293/entry-10952-making-you-own-polyurethane-cartridge-cases/

Regards

That will certainly be a cheaper option than paying a company that has a minimal order of 5000 pieces and needs $1000+ to make what we need. You said you can get 20 to 120 shells out of this? Wonder if there are ways to extend the life of this further like by spraying the mold with silicone clear coat spray and using some oil between each casting.

[+ZuluGula]

2lbs of silicone cost ~$30 and 80lbs of plastic resin cost ~$600. Here's one of the suppliers http://www.reynoldsam.com/

I don't think this production method is suitable for quantities of hundreds or thousands cartridge shells.

It's very labor and time consuming method. Resin pot life is measured in minutes and with one mold, you have to measure and mix it for each peace separately.

Than you have the curing time ranging from ~30 minutes to many hours. It depends on the resin you choose. You could make from maybe 20 to 1 cartridges a day?

 

It's more suited for smaller runs. Like when you need to copy 100 shells of SpartaDOS cartridge with pass thru or make 20 front bezels for Mega Speedy 1050.

[Bryan]

I wonder how long polyurethane castings will last. I know some polyurethanes begin to crumble after 5-10 years.

[Dropcheck]

The silicone method sure sounds good money wise, but..... as has been pointed out it is very labor instensive and the castings may not last any where near what ABS shells do. The mold is good for about 20-50 casts. Maybe.

 

I don't know.... 3D printing is also time intensive and maybe costs more in materials. But you should be able to get a larger number, maybe upwards of a couple hundred or so before you have to make major maintenance a factor on even a reliable printer. But the shells would have the durability of the original. 30+ years. If you tried to increase the number by distributive printing, now you have to factor in variances due to different printers and locations. You also have the option to have it printed commercially. Which may lessen the variances, but could add to the cost because now you are paying a middle man.

 

At the end of the day it seems injection molding is still king of the hill when you start talking about durabity, labor/time costs and larger production runs.

 

I'm working on a 3d model which can be used as a generic/universal shell. I know just enough 3d and solidworks to create a fairly simple design. I'll release the source files and 3d printer files to GNP on my website. This will be the first step. It won't be injection mold ready files. I just don't have enough experience to do that. But some plastic manufacture's can convert the files to what is needed, sometimes for an extra fee. Someone else can mastermind a group supported production run.

[Kyle22]

If I remember correctly, Steve Tucker told me on the phone one time that he has the molds and equipment to produce the OSS type cart shells that he uses for his Atarimax carts. I'm not exactly clear if he meant that he physically has this equipment, or he knows who has it. Either way, if we ask him nicely, maybe he could be persuaded to produce (or have produced) a few extra ones.

 

If you open an Atarimax cart, it says Solakian Mold Co. inside it, same as OSS, SpectraView, and others, so it must be made from the same mold. These are very nice carts that fit everything.

 

It would also be nice to find a supply of the OSS 2 chip bankswitch cart boards as well.

[_The Doctor__]

The molds are usually produced be CNC machines and any format accepted for machining should be good....

[Dropcheck]

The molds are usually produced be CNC machines and any format accepted for machining should be good....

Yes, I agree that molds are usually produced in CNC machines. But the 3d model I am designing is not a mold design. They are two different things. The 3d model is created first and the mold is then designed from it to contain the necessary vent and injection ports as well as account for the shrinkage that ABS does as it cools. There are a number of other factors to consider in the mold design process too. Once you have a mold design, then you can send it to the CNC machine to make the mold.

[Dropcheck]

If I remember correctly, Steve Tucker told me on the phone one time that he has the molds and equipment to produce the OSS type cart shells that he uses for his Atarimax carts. I'm not exactly clear if he meant that he physically has this equipment, or he knows who has it. Either way, if we ask him nicely, maybe he could be persuaded to produce (or have produced) a few extra ones.

Not saying anything bad about Mr Tucker, but a request a year or so back for 'a few extra ones' was denied flatly. Money was offered. No difference.

 

 

If you open an Atarimax cart, it says Solakian Mold Co. inside it, same as OSS, SpectraView, and others, so it must be made from the same mold. These are very nice carts that fit everything.

Maybe, maybe not. Same manufacture, but could be a slightly different mold design. OSS, I believe had a slighly different pcb depending on whether it was the orange or black shell. ie 2 chip verses the later 4 chip version. Of necessity the shell was slightly different internally.

 

It would also be nice to find a supply of the OSS 2 chip bankswitch cart boards as well.

Your best bet is to reimage the pcb. I doubt there's a stash in someone's attic somewhere.

[Kyle22]

Tucker's black carts are the same as orange two EPROM OSS ones, not black one EPROM OSS type.

.

[Dropcheck]

Merry Christmas,

 

I have just finished uploading a zip file containing a beta version of a new Atari generic shell on my website. The model incorporates a no screw approach, using lips and dips to form an interlocking edge. Glue/cement can be used to seal the two halves together. It is modeled on the KM-20 shells, but of course has some differences. This shell is designed to be slightly narrower to fit 1200XLs without any problem and yet is slightly deeper in depth. There is a two tier approach for the pcb deminsions. One for the gamer with the simple pcb design and yet allow for a longer more complicated utility/hardware interface. PCB supports are placed on the sides and top/bottom of the shell. It currently does not have the pass-thru feature. That is a feature in the works.