doctorclu Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) As a fan of retro gaming, and especially one in the here and now (2014) I like information and news. When I order something online I like it in a relatively short amount of time. Receiving what I buy Instantly over e-mail (like the DK and DK2 rom images) received right after the purchase: Even better! It is great to give updates of projects in development. It is great to gauge interest and even take down names. Don't ask for money till you are ready to ship the game and have it in my hands in a week. My only exception to the above rule is: if you need to take a while to put together a cartridge with a nice shell and trappings, then along with the price give me a rom image to play the game on a rom loader till my physical copy arrives. Enough with the kickstarts already. Tired of putting money into things that I don't see for months or/and don't get shipped at the promised time. That is all. -An Intellivision fan Edited July 19, 2014 by doctorclu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 As a general rule, and based on my own experience, I would agree that preorders for software projects should be avoided if possible, for all the reasons I stated here (#98). There are situations, though, in which funds are needed up front: purchasing the materials that go into the cartridges and packaging, paying the programmers (if you're not doing the programming yourself), securing licenses, etc. It all depends on the scope of the project, and some projects are sufficiently expensive that the producers can't go entirely out-of-pocket. As I say in the other post, good communication is the key: be realistic and open about what a given project will cost and how long it will take, explain everything up front, and if delays arise, be proactive about explaining those. Your customers should never have to hunt you down and pry updates out of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SoulBuster Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Communication is the key. William and I have been upfront for the 2 projects that I am working on, Old School and Lost Caves of Kroz. From the beginning it has been stated that Old School will ship sometime in August. I will start receiving the components for manufacture by the end of this month and begin shipping in August. Lost Caves Of Kroz will ship in Sept or very early Oct. At this time I do not see any delays on either of these timeframes. As far as taking money upfront, Jaybird is correct. Sometimes materials need to be paid for before manufacturing begins. Keep in mind, most people that are producing games are not a business entity. I am not a business entity. I have put out thousands of dollars to produce the 2 games I am involved in. I would like to be involved in producing more games. It all takes money and to have a preorder and see some of that money come back early does 2 things. 1. makes me feel better that I am involved in something that I will not lose money. 2. Recovers money that I have put out so I can produce another project. Also keep in mind that I am not looking for profits, breaking even is my goal. If I do make a little money that is OK too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 How about the developer makes it optional to buyers. But a person can still be on the 'pre order' list as not to miss out when it finally does release. As far as I know buying into anyone's pre order was not mandatory. Or was it? I flirted with asking for pre order money, so far I havent needed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 DoctorClu, I am not sure specifically WHO you are directing your frustration at, but from my perspective as a producer, consider that..... I have 3 boxes and a number of overlays printing on Tuesday. This is OVER $10,000 US. We have to buy cartridges in sets that run OVER $10,000. This is not chump change. I may not be running a 'fun hobby time' operation, but this is a lot more money than a small business can sustain. People waiting for future titles to ship to 'save on shipping' has a way of sucking working capital out of a business. I lost money on Paddle Party. A shame but there it is. Therefore, with Old School I did a 'cart only' release. People wanted a box, so I asked for an 'Executive Producer' for the title. SoulBuster stepped forward and bought thousands of dollars worth of product in order to bring you packaging for Old School. That packaging did not exist when he invested in it. He started taking money in advance. However, the wait hasn't been unreasonable. It isn't as if the game is yet to be written. Kroz is FINISHED and yes, it has to have the manual finished, (on schedule for the end of July) the game's final testing completed and the overlays printed but we ship on time. Kroz will be shipping before the official end of summer. Payments for Kroz are optional still at this time. It secures your copy for sure, but no one has said that you MUST pay in advance for Kroz yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lathe26 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 ... I lost money on Paddle Party. A shame but there it is. ... Still a shame that that happened. I really like the game and even introduced it to an Atari friend who has started dabbling with Intellivision and he liked it as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 ...I lost money on Paddle Party.... That truly stinks. I've really enjoyed it. My kids love it, too - but then, they don't have the means nor the desire to buy it. :/ It's just dad's funny old hobby. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I have 3 boxes and a number of overlays printing on Tuesday. This is OVER $10,000 US. We have to buy cartridges in sets that run OVER $10,000. This is not chump change. I can vouch for the numbers, as Elektronite uses boards from Left Turn Only. I've got $thousands in inventory of my own, some (but not all) of which is destined for Elektronite. I'm fortunate that I haven't had to ask for preorders for my recent titles. That wasn't always true, though. With Space Patrol, the preorders helped make it happen. Even then it was a bit rough, because PayPal froze my funds about a month in. That was not fun. Lost more than a few dollars running up the credit card to dizzying heights until they unfroze my account. We make large runs in order to bring the costs down and keep the quality high. Economy of scale is an amazing thing. My cartridge boards would probably cost 2x to 3x what they do if I did them in runs of 100 or 300. Instead, I do large runs and hope several titles sell. It's a similar story for all the pieces. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I can vouch for the numbers, as Elektronite uses boards from Left Turn Only. I've got $thousands in inventory of my own, some (but not all) of which is destined for Elektronite. I'm fortunate that I haven't had to ask for preorders for my recent titles. That wasn't always true, though. With Space Patrol, the preorders helped make it happen. Even then it was a bit rough, because PayPal froze my funds about a month in. That was not fun. Lost more than a few dollars running up the credit card to dizzying heights until they unfroze my account. We make large runs in order to bring the costs down and keep the quality high. Economy of scale is an amazing thing. My cartridge boards would probably cost 2x to 3x what they do if I did them in runs of 100 or 300. Instead, I do large runs and hope several titles sell. It's a similar story for all the pieces. Yes... It's easy to marvel at the raw technical wizardry of the modern hardware involved in all the new games and the existing peripherals like the IntelliCart and CC3. What's overlooked in all this is the just-as-important and sadly unrecognized / unappreciated genius needed to find or rediscover manufacturing processes for boxes and overlays, manage the expenses and sources for parts, and cost this stuff out. And on top of that, take on the financial risk of the whole thing. This includes costs for design tools, test fab runs, and so many other things. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Yes... It's easy to marvel at the raw technical wizardry of the modern hardware involved in all the new games and the existing peripherals like the IntelliCart and CC3. What's overlooked in all this is the just-as-important and sadly unrecognized / unappreciated genius needed to find or rediscover manufacturing processes for boxes and overlays, manage the expenses and sources for parts, and cost this stuff out. And on top of that, take on the financial risk of the whole thing. This includes costs for design tools, test fab runs, and so many other things. Unfortunately, I don't think that some people understand the numbers of things needed to print to get cost down to a reasonable number. I printed 750 Old School cartridge stickers.....why? Because 150 (what I actually needed) was the SAME exact price as 750. Why would I not take the larger quantity? When we did the CIB version, I'm having people complain that I am not making the cart only versions 'unique' by printing a new sticker. Sorry, but I'm not keen to throw away $150 just to do that. With quality comes cost. Low numbers printed do not shrink the cost. All the cost is in the printer set up not the paper. That is why I threw in a sticker with every cartridge sold.....I STILL have enough stickers to do CIB versions. I don't think I'll ever need to do another print run unless they get damaged. My cutting die for the box and Overlays ran slightly over $2000 combined by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Unfortunately, I don't think that some people understand the numbers of things needed to print to get cost down to a reasonable number. I printed 750 Old School cartridge stickers.....why? Because 150 (what I actually needed) was the SAME exact price as 750. Why would I not take the larger quantity? When we did the CIB version, I'm having people complain that I am not making the cart only versions 'unique' by printing a new sticker. Sorry, but I'm not keen to throw away $150 just to do that. With quality comes cost. Low numbers printed do not shrink the cost. All the cost is in the printer set up not the paper. That is why I threw in a sticker with every cartridge sold.....I STILL have enough stickers to do CIB versions. I don't think I'll ever need to do another print run unless they get damaged. My cutting die for the box and Overlays ran slightly over $2000 combined by the way. That's what I'm talking about. Sure, the cost of the cutting dies can be amortized, but that's still a lot of investment, and I presume it needs maintenance. From what I hear, paper and cardboard really do a number on sharp edges. I don't think a pocket sharpening stone quite does the trick when that thing gets dull. Then again, if it's good for 10,000 cuts, it's a fixed asset cost. Even so, you'd need to sell 2000 items if you factored in $1 per box / overlay just for the die! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Yes... It's easy to marvel at the raw technical wizardry of the modern hardware involved in all the new games and the existing peripherals like the IntelliCart and CC3. What's overlooked in all this is the just-as-important and sadly unrecognized / unappreciated genius needed to find or rediscover manufacturing processes for boxes and overlays, manage the expenses and sources for parts, and cost this stuff out. And on top of that, take on the financial risk of the whole thing. This includes costs for design tools, test fab runs, and so many other things. Yes. Most of us have walked into retail stores many times and seen shelves lined with commercially packaged products, and I think we've become so accustomed to that experience that we never stop to appreciate all the work that goes into creating, designing, manufacturing, marketing, and shipping every one of those products. Taking that entire process, which typically involves enormous numbers of people, and scaling it down to much smaller projects produced by a few individuals, is not easy. I think there's a lot more that some producers can do to improve their approach to their projects, and I've mentioned a few of my own ideas already. But even so, the next time anyone on the consumer side is tempted to complain about the costs or the time or the uncertainties involved, perhaps they should stop to think about all the work that goes into creating even a simple retail product. It doesn't have to be anything as complex as a video game cartridge; even a plain wooden pencil is remarkable when viewed from that context. Then, remember that small software publishers of thirty years ago were limited to putting diskettes in plastic baggies with hand-folded instruction manuals printed on dot matrix printers, and think of how much better we have it today with boxes and manuals and other niceties that were previously only available to major publishers. I have enormous respect for those who have worked out all the logistical details to make these better-than-retail-quality homebrew releases possible; every single item on their bill of materials was a separate project in itself. I'm especially grateful to people like William and Joe Zbiciak for sharing the fruits of their efforts, because that is what made it possible for me to publish Aquarius games on brand new cartridges with high-quality boxes also. I might have had to go the "plastic baggie" route myself, if all of that hard work hadn't already been done. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 And, you have a WONDERFUL looking box. I can't wait to see a product released in it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 And, you have a WONDERFUL looking box. I can't wait to see a product released in it. Neither can I! I'm going to do my best to at least have something ready to show off on YouTube before the year is over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdoerty Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think some people have unreasonable expectations on what it takes to deliver homebrew games. People don't seen to realize that in the pre-Internet days, 6 to 8 weeks for mail order was not usual when dealing with smaller companies. And i think everyone making Intellivision games in 2014 falls into that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I think some people have unreasonable expectations on what it takes to deliver homebrew games. People don't seen to realize that in the pre-Internet days, 6 to 8 weeks for mail order was not usual when dealing with smaller companies. And i think everyone making Intellivision games in 2014 falls into that category. Not usual or not unusual? I think you meant the latter. :-) I usually try to have orders out the door within a week of receiving them. There have been a few (ok, more than a few) that went a few weeks. Oops. And then there's slow, expensive overseas shipping. There was a short stretch there where all my PayPal messages got "sorted" for me in a folder I never look in, which really messed with me. I think that's fixed now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cmart604 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As someone who has helped finance four current projects, to the tune of multiple thousands, I think it''s important to restate the fact that most of these can't just be paid for with spare change lying around as William has laid out. Understanding that may help set realistic expectations around delays and money sometimes being taken up front. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BBWW Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I'm in full understanding. As a musician my new CD is about done. CD's are relatively inexpensive to manufacture in quantities of 1000. Unit cost for a nice 6 Panel full color wallet, full color disc printing and replication from a glass master run anywhere from $.90 to about $2.30 a unit. So if I sold the disk for $1.80 or $4.60 I could double my money!!! ON THE MANUFACTURING. With any media the cost is in the hours of production, the hours of design. With CD's a good mix and master of a CD can run $5000.The amount of studio time can be huge and even at a $50 dollar an hour rate, that adds up fast. Especially if you record different musicians at different times. I don't have a "live band" going in the studio and laying down a CD in 8 hours. (Sadly). So for me a real CD, just getting it done is about $10,000. That doesn't include MY time or the time it takes to write the songs. Media is a hard business. Yes it's great to be "independent" but people still expect the quality of a major studio release. It is easy to forget all the details in a full cart, box and overlay release. Design, proofing and those details that take a huge amount of time, so you don't get it WRONG. Hat's off to the Indy Game Makers and the Home-Brew makers. Truth is we want the same professional look that the big boys release and that is hard to do for a release of 200 to 400 games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I personally have no problem with the money taken up front, funding a project or just getting on the list for any of these games so I don't miss out on them. Thank you for the great work that everyone has put in to make these games available to me! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 People who are upset about 'pre-orders' should simply ask for their money back if they already paid and only buy product when it is available. I am sure someone will eBay Kroz eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric7100 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) An Intellivision Fan's Message to Current Developers: SLOW THE HECK DOWN!!! SOME OF US WANT ALL OF THESE GAMES, AND WE CAN'T AFFORD SO MANY AT ONCE. THE WORLD WILL NOT END IF YOU... SLOW... THE... HECK... DOWN. NO MORE THAN 2 GAMES PER YEAR (FOR ALL COMPANIES INCLUSIVE). DOWN, BOYS... YOU'RE LIKE RABID DOGS! Edited July 20, 2014 by Eric7100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 An Intellivision Fan's Message to Current Developers: SLOW THE HECK DOWN!!! SOME OF US WANT ALL OF THESE GAMES, AND WE CAN'T AFFORD SO MANY AT ONCE. THE WORLD WILL NOT END IF YOU... SLOW... THE... HECK... DOWN. NO MORE THAN 2 GAMES PER YEAR (FOR ALL COMPANIES INCLUSIVE). DOWN, BOYS... YOU'RE LIKE RABID DOGS! I don't think that it works that way. Maybe we should have a committee decide what gets made? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+intvsteve Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I don't think that it works that way. Maybe we should have a committee decide what gets made? As in five year plans? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Games For Your Intellivision Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As in five year plans? LOL Who said that a Marxist Intellivision state might not be good for the proletariat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdoerty Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 LOL Who said that a Marxist Intellivision state might not be good for the proletariat? Actually, Nintendo used to limit companies to five games per year on the NES. Maybe we could pout a group in change and limit each manufacturer to two. j/k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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