Atari 8-Bit - Which GUI?

[Smack2k]

OK,

 

Just really diving head first into the Atari 8-Bit machines. I have seen various posts / sites mentioning GUI's for the 8-Bit systems?

 

What are available and what would you consider the best one to use?

 

Are they easy to install?

 

I want to start researching them but want to know which to focus on...

 

Finally, are they better on the XL machine than the normal 800?

 

Thanks again!

[flashjazzcat]

The best available, AFAIK, are:

Diamond GOS: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/194060-diamond-gos-on-8-bit-disk/page-3?do=findComment&comment=2973712

 

Boss-X: http://www.abbuc.de/~atarixle/boss/

 

TRS-Desktop: http://atari8.info/trsdesktop.php

 

There's a SpartaDOS X compatible version of Diamond at the bottom of this page: http://sdx.atari8.info/index.php?show=en_addons

 

Diamond is probably the most realistic crack at a GEM-like Windowed environment, and is cartridge-based. Boss-X and TRS are written in Turbo BASIC XL, and both have installers. I think you can download a ready-made disk image of Boss-X. With Diamond, it's a case of mounting the boot ATR, plugging in the cart, and booting the machine.

 

I'm working on a GUI/OS here which is capable of multitasking, etc, and you can read about that here: http://www.atari8.co.uk/gui/

 

There's a thread about it here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/154520-new-gui-for-the-atari-8-bit/

Edited October 26, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[Smack2k]

Thank you for that info…will dig into it.

[atarixle]

TRS actually never got finished. Additionally it doesn't run without a SpartaDOS-X cart - if you get it to run at all on actual hardware (I didn't).

 

Diamond GOS is for those who don't need a GUI: DOS 2.5 Users without any additional hardware or large size drives. Same goes for the S.A.M. gui (not to confuse with S.A.M. speach synth.).

 

At the moment, BOSS-X is the only GUI that runs on stock Atari's. It is supporting MyDOS, which itself supports disk-drives up to 16 MiB. With much software on large disks, stored in files and folders, BOSS-X makes a good sense.

Written in BASIC, it is slow, no matter how much time I invested to make it faster. It actually is fast enough to have a good workflow on the Desktop. Programs like the File-Manager and the Font-Editor are too slow on many points.

But running in Turbo-BASIC also offers the possiblility to run software written for

-DOS

-BASIC

-Turbo-BASIC

right from the Desktop's start-menu.

 

Last but not least, there is the new GUI (written by the author of the previous post) which is in development for 5 years now (or more?) and there is no end in sight. :-) This one will be the choice for users who need a fast desktop (100% written in assembler), and use large disks up to 32 MB.

 

At the moment, Atari does not have any standard or semi-standard kind of GUI.

 

You better look for a DOS which fits your needs. This could be DOS 2.5, most compatible, because it is the semi-standard DOS. It is written by Atari for working perfectly with its 1050 disk drive device.

 

MyDOS is very similar to DOS 2.5. It brings a freely configurable RAM-Disk-Driver, but it also some bugs (which doesn't make it unusable, but you have to take care for backing up your data). It supports larger disks, up to 16 MB each, and sub-directories (also known as folders).

 

SpartaDOS is the DOS for pros and power-users. Up to 32 MB, using nearly any known additional hardware, wide rage of command line instructions, very MS-DOS-like style, very fast access to the file-system (especially random access to large single files).

 

Compared to todays standards, you could compare the target groups like this: DOS 2.5 targets the same audience like Windows on the PC, MyDOS targets PC's Ubuntu-Users, SpartaDOS is the Gentoo for 8 Bit Ataris.

Edited October 29, 2014 by atarixle

[flashjazzcat]

Four years next January.

[atari8warez]

 

Compared to todays standards, you could compare the target groups like this: DOS 2.5 targets the same audience like Windows on the PC

 

Not sure about that. I am a Windows user on PC, but I prefer SDX on my Ataris,

[atari8warez]

Four years next January.

 

Dec 6 2009 to Nov 24 2014, simple math says 5 years, besides what's the difference, it may as well take 10 or 20 years as far as I care. The end result is we don't have a GUI to speak of yet. A carrot is surely dangling in front of our noses for the ones who are willing to follow it.

Edited November 24, 2014 by atari8warez

[_The Doctor__]

Maybe someone will convert the Basix Boss-X to machine language for a super speed up and then we can have a battle of the GUI's!!!

 

I have a feeling FlashJazz will kick azz!

[fibrewire]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but...

 

Dec 6 2009 to Nov 24 2014, simple math says 5 years, besides what's the difference, it may as well take 10 or 20 years as far as I care. The end result is we don't have a GUI to speak of yet. A carrot is surely dangling in front of our noses for the ones who are willing to follow it.

 

Dude...

 

FWIW I have all but completely dropped from the Atari scene. I love these 8-bit machines, but my wife took an interest a few months back and saw some of the comments being posted here. She says to me "So you go on here and listen to a bunch of middle-aged men bitch about old ass computers?" I didn't have a leg to stand on, and when it came time to move the Atari collection was sold and 4 years as a collector lives on in my memories only. I have met a great number of extremely talented and interesting people through this message board, but the one thing I miss the most is FJC's GUI thread.

 

Through the FJC GUI thread I have learned about many aspects of real world business and what it takes to make a product into reality.

* Funding - thank you paypal donate, crowdfunding a la kickstarter, etc.

* Brainstorming - FJC good nature as a thread manager, idea presenter, and the positive reinforcement to all thread contributors.

* Prototyping - Side2 cart, U1MB, and the value of video as an interest analysis tool

* Interconnecting Details - many other aspects of which I do not have the time to discuss at the moment.

Anyone with an inquisitive mind can read the FJC GUI thread and say "Making a real world product has been demystified. I really could start my own business and be self-sufficient!"

 

Maybe the FJC GUI would have been realized by now had it not been derided on a regular basis. There is a condition known as Phychological Projection in which someone can't cope with their issues, therefore they blame everyone else for a shortcoming. It might make someone diagnosed with Opposition Defiance Disorder succeed, but for everyone else it's just plain annoying and destructive to a person's interests and activities. For example, I have ODD so I'm hijacking this thread from a thread terrorist because I envision myself as a virtual vigilante, fighting the good fight against an oppressive forum villain.

 

If one is wondering why they might want to support a project instead of acting like an infection, it's because your voice has an impact on others around you. There once was a very intelligent man whose life was dedicated to maximizing the productiveness of one's time spent on earth. He said "Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he can and should be and he will become as he can and should be.” I am a strong believer in this man's words of wisdom, as it has helped me create strong and lasting relationships with whomever I choose, despite political or religious differences or anything else that might get in the way of creating a successful relationship. This man is Stephen Covey.

 

So remember, your recursive actions define you. Lets all get along and try a little positive reinforcement without snide undercutting remarks. Years from now, I hope to look back at this thread and laugh uneasily, knowing that these statements could have destroyed my online reputation. See, you are influencing me in ways you could have never imagined, right? So suck it up, and do something nice for a change. Its a fine line between constructive criticism and just being an anus, so make the effort for us just like you would want done for you.

Edited November 24, 2014 by fibrewire

[flashjazzcat]

Dec 6 2009 to Nov 24 2014, simple math says 5 years, besides what's the difference, it may as well take 10 or 20 years as far as I care. The end result is we don't have a GUI to speak of yet. A carrot is surely dangling in front of our noses for the ones who are willing to follow it.

The topic's five years old, but from reading the first three pages, anyone able to comprehend what they're looking at will see that all I did around January 2010 was write a mouse driver, and then nothing at all for almost an entire year. But if it suits you to be the one person who absolutely insists on five years, then have at it if this fits your modus operandi. Personally I think the Aspeqt carrot is far more enticing: namely a piece of software which was on the cusp of excellence when you took charge, but has since languished in a state of semi-stasis, enjoying various facelifts to the UI while the hard stuff like fixing code which has been broken since the year dot is studiously avoided. Believe me, the fact that stuff like folder imaging was broken when you were passed the crown and remains broken today is starting to wear a bit thin. So instead of arguing the toss about what I'm doing, or messing around with SIO connectors or trying to flog coils of cable, try to earn the respect of others through positive actions rather than continually and openly hounding the respected people of whom you are so insanely jealous.

 

Of course, since everyone else is wrong and you are right, you'll continue in the current vein until you get kicked out of another thread just as you were summarily kicked out of the GUI thread.

Edited November 24, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[atari8warez]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but...

 

 

Dude...

 

FWIW I have all but completely dropped from the Atari scene. I love these 8-bit machines, but my wife took an interest a few months back and saw some of the comments being posted here. She says to me "So you go on here and listen to a bunch of middle-aged men bitch about old ass computers?" I didn't have a leg to stand on, and when it came time to move the Atari collection was sold and 4 years as a collector lives on in my memories only. I have met a great number of extremely talented and interesting people through this message board, but the one thing I miss the most is FJC's GUI thread.

 

Through the FJC GUI thread I have learned about many aspects of real world business and what it takes to make a product into reality.

* Funding - thank you paypal donate, crowdfunding a la kickstarter, etc.

* Brainstorming - FJC good nature as a thread manager, idea presenter, and the positive reinforcement to all thread contributors.

* Prototyping - Side2 cart, U1MB, and the value of video as an interest analysis tool

* Interconnecting Details - many other aspects of which I do not have the time to discuss at the moment.

Anyone with an inquisitive mind can read the FJC GUI thread and say "Making a real world product has been demystified. I really could start my own business and be self-sufficient!"

 

Maybe the FJC GUI would have been realized by now had it not been derided on a regular basis. There is a condition known as Phychological Projection in which someone can't cope with their issues, therefore they blame everyone else for a shortcoming. It might make someone diagnosed with Opposition Defiance Disorder succeed, but for everyone else it's just plain annoying and destructive to a person's interests and activities. For example, I have ODD so I'm hijacking this thread from a thread terrorist because I envision myself as a virtual vigilante, fighting the good fight against an oppressive forum villain.

 

If one is wondering why they might want to support a project instead of acting like an infection, it's because your voice has an impact on others around you. There once was a very intelligent man whose life was dedicated to maximizing the productiveness of one's time spent on earth. He said "Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he can and should be and he will become as he can and should be.” I am a strong believer in this man's words of wisdom, as it has helped me create strong and lasting relationships with whomever I choose, despite political or religious differences or anything else that might get in the way of creating a successful relationship. This man is Stephen Covey.

 

So remember, your recursive actions define you. Lets all get along and try a little positive reinforcement without snide undercutting remarks. Years from now, I hope to look back at this thread and laugh uneasily, knowing that these statements could have destroyed my online reputation. See, you are influencing me in ways you could have never imagined, right? So suck it up, and do something nice for a change. Its a fine line between constructive criticism and just being an anus, so make the effort for us just like you would want done for you.

 

Dude, that's an annoyingly long rant for someone who claims to "all but completely dropped from the Atari scene", but like anyone else on this forum you are entitled to your opinion. As far as your situation in front of your wife goes, you should have told her that you are one of those "middle-aged men bitching about old ass computers", because you are, how many legs do you need to make that stand-on. LOL

 

What makes me laugh harder though is the sentence where you say "Through the FJC GUI thread I have learned about many aspects of real world business and what it takes to make a product into reality". If a successful business takes 5 years (and counting) just to launch one product (especially in the high-tech field), all of his competitors would have been laughing and jumping with pleasure. So pleaseeeeeeeeee if you want to make a point try to choose a reasonable example. If that thread made you the man you are today, just imagine what you could have become, had you followed a REAL business case.

 

As for Phychological Projection all I can say is GROW UP, you're definitely long passed the teenage years, it's time to have some self-confidence, don't blame your critics, blame yourself for your own shortcomings.

[atari8warez]

The topic's five years old, but from reading the first three pages, anyone able to comprehend what they're looking at will see that all I did around January 2010 was write a mouse driver, and then nothing at all for almost an entire year. But if it suits you to be the one person who absolutely insists on five years, then have at it if this fits your modus operandi. Personally I think the Aspeqt carrot is far more enticing: namely a piece of software which was on the cusp of excellence when you took charge, but has since languished in a state of semi-stasis, enjoying various facelifts to the UI while the hard stuff like fixing code which has been broken since the year dot is studiously avoided. Believe me, the fact that stuff like folder imaging was broken when you were passed the crown and remains broken today is starting to wear a bit thin. So instead of arguing the toss about what I'm doing, or messing around with SIO connectors or trying to flog coils of cable, try to earn the respect of others through positive actions rather than continually and openly hounding the respected people of whom you are so insanely jealous.

 

Of course, since everyone else is wrong and you are right, you'll continue in the current vein until you get kicked out of another thread just as you were summarily kicked out of the GUI thread.

 

A project (at least the ones I know off) have several phases and one of them is the planning phase. Since you announced your idea on Dec 6 2009, the project is now 5 years old whether you coded throughout all those 5 years or not. Anyone able to comprehend the meaning of a "PROJECT" would know that.

 

I on the other hand just took over a project that was near maturity and without any commitments whatsoever. I didn't promise anybody anything and I am doing this at my leisure and free time, I am not claiming fame, I am not claiming that I am an expert, I am doing this because I like it.

 

As far as the GUI goes, when I first involved with that thread I simply stated my opinion about a GUI on an Atari 8 bit, that had nothing to do with your person or your abilities. You on the other hand take every opportunity to belittle my skills and to make me look like an ignorant twitt (just read your comments above). Nowhere in my comments about the GUI you can find any sentence criticizing your skills or knowledge, i simply said and I am still saying a usable pre-emptive multitasking GUI OS on an Atari 8 bit is just a fantasy. Sure it can be done for demo purposes but that's as far as it goes. If you don't agree prove me wrong, BUT STOP CRYING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL....

 

You can't beat my opinion by proving otherwise so you seek the help of moderators and get me kicked out of your thread, now you're here and trying to achieve the same thing, with the help of your minions, to get me kicked out from here too. I really don't give a rat's ass. I told you this multiple times and thought you finally got it, apparently not.

Hope this time it will sink in.

Edited November 25, 2014 by atari8warez

[flashjazzcat]

And if responding to rebuttals of your complaints about GUI timescales and practicalities in this and other threads is proving such a distraction to your work on Aspeqt... well, there's a simple remedy to that problem. FOCUS!

[atarixle]

 

Not sure about that. I am a Windows user on PC, but I prefer SDX on my Ataris,

 

>.< do I have to scream?

[576XE]

We are all in doubt is there are GUI needed.

 

We are all know that FJC is the ONLY that CAN..!

 

Be patient, HE'LL MAKE ANOTHER!

[576XE]

Sorry. I can't speak English in Impressive manner...

[IndusGT]

 

>.< do I have to scream?

Is there a possibility to recompile Boss-X so it will run faster? I ran it Boss-X in a hard drive on a Black Box for years and it rocked. Not currently running it because of space constraints.

[flashjazzcat]

We are all in doubt is there are GUI needed.

While the tactless assertion that "we don't have a GUI to speak of yet" was intended to belittle the current project, hopefully it doesn't belittle the efforts of those who - like atarixle and Alan Reeve - already have completed projects to their credit. What's interesting is that rivalry comes not from those who can, but those who cannot. Fellow GUI authors seem to enjoy and encourage other GUI projects (and the author of the de-facto 8-bit GUI, SymbOS, is one of our greatest allies). What does this tell you about the human condition...

 

While I promise a nice Christmas present for GUI fans, this is a nice real-life account of how big hobbyist projects usually progress:

 

http://www.symbos.de/facts.htm

 

Prodatron says he started to develop SymbOS in November 2000, and yet we read that version 1.0 wasn't completed until July 2006. Five and a half years of uninterrupted coding? Well, no - not if we read it properly. Prodatron took breaks and had other things to do in his life. Unexpected things happened. For my part, even four years is a ridiculous over estimation of the time spent focused on the A8 GUI project. Even when sat near an Atari, I was often working on other projects: APT drivers for Ultimate 1MB, Incognito, MyIDE/Flash, MyIDE-II, SIDE, SIDE2, IDEa, and partitioning tools for same (and I'm sure critics are no strangers to these tools). Then there was The Last Word and UFlash. And then weeks or months spent revising or bug-fixing all of the above. And all this happened since 2009. And there were often periods when I was nowhere near the Atari, and not concerned with Atari projects. This happens to us all.

 

Although I (and MrFish too) am working on GUI things right now, I haven't posted updates in the GUI topic because a demo is what I'd promised next, and the demo is overdue. I have lots of things I'd like to show in videos, but I think people would rather see them in an emulator on their own PC, or on a real Atari. I think in five years I have started and completed an uncommonly large number of major software projects, so I trust people will be patient waiting for what is by far the largest project of all.

Edited November 25, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[Stormbringer]

As human beings living in an uncertain world, we make claims about many matters about which we do not have knowledge or even well-confirmed beliefs. An opinion is a belief, often held with a rather low degree of confidence. Usually when we hold opinions, we are aware that they are our opinions in the sense that we cannot fully defend them by citing reasons or evidence in support. For example, it may be one person’s opinion that wilderness skiing is safe and another’s opinion that it is dangerous. These are opinions, but nevertheless it is clear that reasons and evidence are relevant to their credibility; there are facts about avalanche risks in various areas, and the suitability of various kinds of equipment. Such facts can be studied and reported in ways that are more or less reliable. Politically and legally, we are free to hold any opinion at all, as people so often insist when they say things like “I’m entitled to my own opinion.”

In normal circumstances, others cannot coerce us into believing something we don’t believe. However, the political right to hold any opinion does not mean that all opinions are intellectually equal. Some opinions are mere opinions, whereas other opinions are based on evidence, reasoning, and good judgment. However much we speak of people being entitled to their own opinion, most of us do seek evidence for claims about matters of practical importance, such as which doctor to go to, which college to attend, and what the salary is for a job we might be seeking. When opinions are carelessly formed and unsupported, they do us little service because they are not reliable guides to the world. We should seek well-founded and sensible opinions, grounded in factual accuracy and coherent reasons. Such common sayings as
“Isn’t that just a matter of opinion?,” “Everyone has a right to his own opinion,” and “Well, that may be your view, but I have my own opinion” seem to suggest that one opinion is just as good as another. But because our beliefs and opinions guide our attitudes and actions, that view is simply not correct.

 

Govier, Trudy. A practical Study of Argument

Edited November 25, 2014 by Stormbringer

[_The Doctor__]

I all the aspects of pruduction I have seen including car manufacture, the time frame has always been 4 to 6 years, the first model year getting the remaining kinks out...

Now that almost everything is equal many car manufacturers give 2 years for an engine and 2 years for a new model. How so? Using known building blocks they shave off the 2 years and using the same manufactering steps and parts now shave off another 2 years.. leaving us with a 2 year time frames for each model and 2 years to combine a new model with a completely new engine. And they have it down to a science. Give or take for manufacturer. Reliability is another story... look at all the recalls and deaths the last few years.... I think maybe the longer time frame was better.

 

A team of software engineers working on major revisions or new O.S.'s of any kind also takes years... I don't see millions of 'APP' designers going nuts about it..most of them are smart enough to realise what they do is tiny in scale and responibility compared to the undertaking writing an O.S. from scratch is...

 

Cartoon moment..

Please Mr. App quit pestering Mr. O.S. without him you are nothing!

Edited November 25, 2014 by _The Doctor__

[atari8warez]

 

While the tactless assertion that "we don't have a GUI to speak of yet" was intended to belittle the current project, hopefully it doesn't belittle the efforts of those who - like atarixle and Alan Reeve - already have completed projects to their credit.

 

And you keep claiming that I have a poor comprehension, I never mentioned any other GUI in my comments, none of which by the way claim to be a preemptive/multitasking OS with a GUI. I command their authors for actually DELIVERING a final product. Your GUI on the other hand claims to be THE ONE and ONLY and the BEST Atari 8 bit GUI ever, which unfortunately doesn't get the "well earned respect" it deserves from people like me.

 

You know what they say, you earn the respect, it is not just given away, and to earn it you must substantiate your claims that it will be a usable pre-emptive multitasking OS with a GUI that can handle more than just a Task Manager window. The day you do that you will earn my respect, but I will not be feeding your ego for the next who knows how many years just because you can demo a few moving windows on the screen at "never before seen speeds". I am not belittling your efforts or capabilities, however I can not say the same thing for your attitude.

 

The issue is not really how many years it takes to finish the GUI, the issue is that you are not mature enough to debate with me, and instead of proving me wrong by showing everybody that a usable pre-emptive multitasking GUI is indeed possible on an Atari 8 bit, you get into petty arguments claiming it is not really 5 years but only 4 years since you started the project and dragging me into these useless arguments as well in the process. When I don't back out you seek the help of moderators to silence me. These are not the ways of a winner, they're childish, immature and does not earn you the respect you are desperately seeking.

[_The Doctor__]

Al,

this atari8warez guy is being a pain in the rear end wherever and whatever GUI thread is started, Can we just ban this guy from his incessant need to bicker with every one. He seems hell bent to be argumentative and down right unhelpful, at times even hurtful where Flashjazzcat or anyone not in love with this apesqt thing or whatever it is becomes concerned.

 

Stop Stalking People!

Stop Stalking People!

Stop Stalking People!

 

Age without wisdom.... years do not equal maturity...

Edited November 26, 2014 by _The Doctor__

[+Ripdubski]

Jeebus, again. Vote with your wallets people, vote with your wallets...

[flashjazzcat]

Heh... this topic (silent for a month) must have slid down to page 5 of the forum until someone feverishly typed "GUI" into the search bar or trawled tormentedly through my recent posts.

Edited November 26, 2014 by flashjazzcat

[atari8warez]

Al,

this atari8warez guy is being a pain in the rear end wherever and whatever GUI thread is started, Can we just ban this guy from his incessant need to bicker with every one. He seems hell bent to be argumentative and down right unhelpful, at times even hurtful where Flashjazzcat or anyone not in love with this apesqt thing or whatever it is becomes concerned.

 

Stop Stalking People!

Stop Stalking People!

Stop Stalking People!

 

Age without wisdom.... years do not equal maturity...

 

What kind of doctor are you, what kind of diagnosis is this, what this whole thing has anything to do with AspeQt??? Unless you have something meaningful to say why even bother? If you think I am a pain in the rear select not to read my postings, also if you have something to say about me be man enough to say it to my face, do not pretend I am not here...

Edited November 26, 2014 by atari8warez