US reticence.

[am1933]

Dont worry guys, this is not an anti US thread, just a question that has been bugging me and based on something Carlsson said in another post it appears I am not the only one.

 

What was the reason for the relative failure of non US designed machines in the US market?

 

Based on a basic comparison of bare bones machines, the BBC Micro was a far better computer than the Apple II, the Acorn Electron was a far better machine than a Tandy CoCo and both machines were cheaper than their US counterparts.

 

There was no reverse situation over here, the CBM VIC20 and 64 both done well and the Atari 8 bit lines picked up a head of steam also, Tandy failed miserably because of their ludicrous pricing for a relatively poor spec and TI killed themseleves over here because of the mistakes made with the pricing and performance of the TI99/4.

 

So basically, your American-you go into a store and see a BBC micro and you also see an Apple, why do you choose the Apple?(is it all to do with software availability?).

[Rhomaios]

I'm fairly certain it was contextual to the actual machines (so factors like name recognition, software availability, etc. played a part), considering that Japan has dominated the console market since 1987.

[Rex Dart]

Software sharing, maybe? Why buy a Beeb if your friends, neighbours, and family all have Apple?

[Nukey Shay]

The strategy of primarily targeting schools (rather than businesses or homes...which would soon follow).

[Omega-TI]

 

So basically, your American-you go into a store and see a BBC micro and you also see an Apple, why do you choose the Apple?(is it all to do with software availability?).

 

It basically came down to three things (for the most part) in the consumer market.

 

1) A computer is WORTHLESS without software.

By the time the Apple II came out, people were starting to get a little more savvy about available "costware".

When a word processing program could easily set you back $199.95, piracy was rampant. The cost of

software could quite quickly be more than the cost of the computer.

 

2) Friends, relatives or user's groups. A lot of people factored support & socialization into their equation.

This was pre-Internet, people actually SOCIALIZED back in the day, so if you knew someone with

a specific brand of computer, you had some feeling of familiarity, and felt comfortable with it.

This is one reason the computer stores of the time advertised for user groups, even though they knew

they would lose money on software sales, hardware had such a high profit margin back then that it

served them. Besides, they knew piracy was rampant, some towns/stores only had one original copy!

 

3) Cost/Benefit/Ratio

Speaks for it's self, if #1 & #2 are taken into account.

[jhd]

I'm not American, but none the UK-made systems had ANY retail presence in Canada -- there was simply nowhere to purchase the hardware. I suppose one could have placed a mail-order with a British vendor, but then there remains the issue of an incompatible power supply, PAL video, and a total absence of software support. The exchange rate + shipping + customs would have also made this option very unappealing.

 

The same reasoning largely applies to MSX systems. Spectravideo ran frequent magazine ads, but no local retailer stocked the systems. Some of the Yahama MSX systems did get a bit of retail distribution through specialist music stores -- one or two shops in town.

 

Commodore was everywhere; in all the major department stores. Atari and Apple were very close behind. Radio Shack (and a few independents) supported the Coco. Anything more "exotic" was completely unknown -- beyond perhaps a few magazine articles -- and unavailable for purchase.

[Nebulon]

I'm not American, but none the UK-made systems had ANY retail presence in Canada -- there was simply nowhere to purchase the hardware. I suppose one could have placed a mail-order with a British vendor, but then there remains the issue of an incompatible power supply, PAL video, and a total absence of software support. The exchange rate + shipping + customs would have also made this option very unappealing.

 

The same reasoning largely applies to MSX systems. Spectravideo ran frequent magazine ads, but no local retailer stocked the systems. Some of the Yahama MSX systems did get a bit of retail distribution through specialist music stores -- one or two shops in town.

 

Commodore was everywhere; in all the major department stores. Atari and Apple were very close behind. Radio Shack (and a few independents) supported the Coco. Anything more "exotic" was completely unknown -- beyond perhaps a few magazine articles -- and unavailable for purchase.

 

Exactly what I noticed as well.

 

Couple that with infrequent appearances in U.S. computer magazines and in TV ads, and it's a bit of an uphill battle.

 

A machine like the Tandy Color Computer was cheap and available at thousands of locations and the Apple II was entrenched in the school system.

 

So, from my recollection, it comes down to:

Distribution

Marketing strength per region

Local repair facilities

Edited November 4, 2014 by Nebulon

[tep392]

I think Marketing was a big part of it. I never heard of the BBC or Acorn computers until recent years. US computers were advertised everywhere. The Timex/Sinclair 1000 was the closest thing to a British computer that I ever saw back then.

[am1933]

I'm not American, but none the UK-made systems had ANY retail presence in Canada -- there was simply nowhere to purchase the hardware. I suppose one could have placed a mail-order with a British vendor, but then there remains the issue of an incompatible power supply, PAL video, and a total absence of software support. The exchange rate + shipping + customs would have also made this option very unappealing.

 

The same reasoning largely applies to MSX systems. Spectravideo ran frequent magazine ads, but no local retailer stocked the systems. Some of the Yahama MSX systems did get a bit of retail distribution through specialist music stores -- one or two shops in town.

 

Commodore was everywhere; in all the major department stores. Atari and Apple were very close behind. Radio Shack (and a few independents) supported the Coco. Anything more "exotic" was completely unknown -- beyond perhaps a few magazine articles -- and unavailable for purchase.

I understand that availability would have been a big factor, the only reason I even knew that the BBC micro was ever marketed in the US was from the film Electric Dreams-where the guy is looking for a computer in a store (which was selling the BBC Micro).

[am1933]

 

It basically came down to three things (for the most part) in the consumer market.

 

1) A computer is WORTHLESS without software.

By the time the Apple II came out, people were starting to get a little more savvy about available "costware".

When a word processing program could easily set you back $199.95, piracy was rampant. The cost of

software could quite quickly be more than the cost of the computer.

 

2) Friends, relatives or user's groups. A lot of people factored support & socialization into their equation.

This was pre-Internet, people actually SOCIALIZED back in the day, so if you knew someone with

a specific brand of computer, you had some feeling of familiarity, and felt comfortable with it.

This is one reason the computer stores of the time advertised for user groups, even though they knew

they would lose money on software sales, hardware had such a high profit margin back then that it

served them. Besides, they knew piracy was rampant, some towns/stores only had one original copy!

 

3) Cost/Benefit/Ratio

Speaks for it's self, if #1 & #2 are taken into account.

I agree,but the popularity/availability or copying of friends software was never a big issue to me, which explains my TI centric approach, I never knew anyone else who had one and software availability was abysmal here in the UK, there was next to no off the shelf availability of software. Alpiner, Parsec and Atarisoft defender were about the only modules you could find. If it wasn't for my Aunt in New York sending over some modules I would have dropped my TI a lot faster than I eventually did.

 

I have always kind of rooted for the underdog in computing terms, I always had a soft spot for Tandy(which was as popular as a cup of cold vomit over here), I was never a big fan of Sinclair or Commodore, I would have liked to have got my hands on an Enterprise 128, a Memotech MTX or a Lynx before any of the big names.

[Mr SQL]

Great posts - agree about the marketing. Timex/Sinclair did well because they took out ads in comic books and other venues missed by other companies and also had the lowest price machine. Radio Shack did well with their stores and the CoCo but was too late to take on the Timex sinclair with their own awesome MC-10. Distribution channels kept getting more firmly established - the only way to find out about the BBC Micro, the Jupiter Ace, the Franklin Ace 1000 apple clones and sometime later those wierd MSX machines, was through BYTE or another technical magazine.

[Keatah]

I didn't know they existed. Therefore I bought what did.

[Omega-TI]

I agree,but the popularity/availability or copying of friends software was never a big issue to me, which explains my TI centric approach, I never knew anyone else who had one and software availability was abysmal here in the UK, there was next to no off the shelf availability of software. Alpiner, Parsec and Atarisoft defender were about the only modules you could find. If it wasn't for my Aunt in New York sending over some modules I would have dropped my TI a lot faster than I eventually did.

 

I have always kind of rooted for the underdog in computing terms, I always had a soft spot for Tandy(which was as popular as a cup of cold vomit over here), I was never a big fan of Sinclair or Commodore, I would have liked to have got my hands on an Enterprise 128, a Memotech MTX or a Lynx before any of the big names.

 

Back in the day I was the computer marketing manager for a Radio Shack Computer Center. It was amazing the hand-holding people needed back then before they would make a purchasing decision. Of course when a "home type" computer was selling $1,995 (non inflation adjusted dollars) it was understandable. I preferred to work the government and business accounts myself as the commission was always higher for less hand-holding.

 

For consumer sales, one of the tactics I used was letting the kids play on the store models, they would have fun, learn a few things and then go home and work over their parents until they came in and bought!

[+wood_jl]

 

Frankly, because I never saw a BBC or an Acorn at a computer store, I was never given the option to buy one.

 

Apple, Atari, and Commodore were my choices. Whoever's fault that was, it certainly wasn't reticence on my part. Perhaps it was incumbent upon BBC, Acorn (or whoever else) to expand their international marketing to my region of the world (as U.S. companies did to other regions), rather than blame me for my alleged reticence.

 

(Enjoyed my Atari computers, by the way)

[Rybags]

BBC was in no way price competitive with probably all the 6502 competition except Apple II.

 

The Sinclair machines - just face it, they're cheap entry-level machines and I don't think they were all that price competitive once they hit the US market.

A large part of Sinclair's success was patriotism in it's home market. In Australia, they didn't make much of an impact. In fact, the most successful UK maker over here was probably Amstrad in the mid/late 80s when most 8-bitters were starting to fade away.

[carlsson]

I've come to understand that FCC regulations forced Acorn to build quite a Faraday's cage inside the BBC Micro in order to sell it in the US. It must've made an already somewhat pricy machine even more expensive, not to mention much heavier which adds to shipping costs etc. Whether that would be a factor against sales in the US, I'm not sure though.

 

Generally it has been said that Americans had more money, or at least more willing to spend money in the 1980's than Europeans were. Thus you had the computers with full sized keyboards, plenty of RAM, decent graphics etc and those who wanted something more than a video game would not mind paying what a C64, an Atari 8-bit, a Tandy CoCo, a TI-99/4A or even an Apple ][ cost. It didn't seem like there was a market for the smaller, cheaper, simpler computers from the Europe: the ZX Spectrum, the Orics, the Acorn Electron if you like. I know Tano sold the Dragon, which itself is a very close sibling to the CoCo but not 100% the same so mainly a cause of confusion for the US buyer and very little point to get a Dragon instead of a CoCo series.

 

Apart from the already mentioned Beeb, I think the only major European home computer which would have stood a chance was the Amstrad CPC series. Then again it was released in 1984 at a point in time where the market was about to get into 16-bits so it represented something of the past, yet well designed and with CP/M support. Of course you had the Sinclair QL too, perhaps with a real keyboard and floppy disks instead of microdrives it would've been a contender internationally, but it would have driven up the price a bit.

[Rybags]

The BBC micro has a metal case to begin with, I don't know if the FCC would have had any influence on that choice. The purpose of the machine was to be used in schools so they probably wanted a heavy-duty design.

Also, I don't think it came with RF modulator anyway so the situation there becomes more relaxed.

 

Probably the biggest problem the UK makers faced was that from 84 onwards the US makers had the price war going and they had absolutely no way to compete. Their wholesale prices were probably higher than what the US retail prices were.

[carlsson]

The Beeb has a built-in RF yes. The models I've got in my possession have positively plastic outer cases. I've read that they needed to improve the design for the German market too, and I once read they had issues getting the Beeb onto the Swedish market for similar reasons. I always thought it was BS for some other reason but perhaps it is true, and that UK customers and school children were less susceptible to radiation than others.

[Rybags]

The emissions issue relates to other electrical equipment, not safety of those using the computer. Radition issues relate to CRT monitors as in eyestrain, epilepsy etc, Sweden was probably the main pacesetter regarding standards there.

 

I find it hard to believe they would have had problems - just look at the C64, all it has is a metal shield over the VIC-2 chip and that flimsy foil coated cardboard crap over the top of the motherboard.

[am1933]

BBC was in no way price competitive with probably all the 6502 competition except Apple II.

 

The Sinclair machines - just face it, they're cheap entry-level machines and I don't think they were all that price competitive once they hit the US market.

A large part of Sinclair's success was patriotism in it's home market. In Australia, they didn't make much of an impact. In fact, the most successful UK maker over here was probably Amstrad in the mid/late 80s when most 8-bitters were starting to fade away.

I think you will find that patriotism had very little to do with the success of Sinclair, it was the price point, the computer was considerably cheaper than the C64 and the vast majority of software releases were also cheaper.

The price of the machines changes very little in the first few years of their launch, the C64 was always around £199 to £229 and the Spectrum was £129.

[am1933]

The BBC micro has a metal case to begin with, I don't know if the FCC would have had any influence on that choice. The purpose of the machine was to be used in schools so they probably wanted a heavy-duty design.

Also, I don't think it came with RF modulator anyway so the situation there becomes more relaxed.

 

Probably the biggest problem the UK makers faced was that from 84 onwards the US makers had the price war going and they had absolutely no way to compete. Their wholesale prices were probably higher than what the US retail prices were.

There is actually very little in the way of shielding on the UK BBC micro, the US version is heavily shielded, if you had a US version to compare it to-you would feel that the machine is heavier and you can see the extra shielding around the interfaces.

[am1933]

 

Back in the day I was the computer marketing manager for a Radio Shack Computer Center. It was amazing the hand-holding people needed back then before they would make a purchasing decision. Of course when a "home type" computer was selling $1,995 (non inflation adjusted dollars) it was understandable. I preferred to work the government and business accounts myself as the commission was always higher for less hand-holding.

 

For consumer sales, one of the tactics I used was letting the kids play on the store models, they would have fun, learn a few things and then go home and work over their parents until they came in and bought!

Ha Ha, old computers, best and cheapest baby sitters ever. In my own home town we had two stores right next to each other, one was called John Menzies and the other was Tandy. John Menzies had a full line up of machines to try whilst Tandy had one CoCo, guess which shop I was in?

[carlsson]

Chris Whytehead has some comparison pictures of the various UK, German and US releases of the BBC Micro. The US one had its Faraday cage removed on the pics.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Computers/BBCMicros.html

 

Here is another US model with the cage intact, so it looks just like the German model. It says the extra shielding adds about 1 kg to the weight.

http://wouter.bbcmicro.net/pictures/computer/usa_bbc/

 

I don't know why all other computers would have significantly fewer issues.

[Keatah]

Back in the day I was the computer marketing manager for a Radio Shack Computer Center. It was amazing the hand-holding people needed back then before they would make a purchasing decision.

 

The support for the home user was unparalleled. Unlike today. I wrote up a nice little story about how much the TRS guys went out of the ordinary.

 

 

For consumer sales, one of the tactics I used was letting the kids play on the store models, they would have fun, learn a few things and then go home and work over their parents until they came in and bought!

 

This is exactly the thing the dude with the 'fro at Compu-Shop did. I knew it, he knew it, my parents knew it. I would play flight simulator for hours on end after school over there.

[MarkO]

Dont worry guys, this is not an anti US thread, just a question that has been bugging me and based on something Carlsson said in another post it appears I am not the only one.

 

What was the reason for the relative failure of non US designed machines in the US market?

1) First Mover Advantage ( FMA )

2) Marketing

3) Software ( Computer doesn't much without it )

 

Based on a basic comparison of bare bones machines, the BBC Micro was a far better computer than the Apple II, the Acorn Electron was a far better machine than a Tandy CoCo and both machines were cheaper than their US counterparts.

The Sinclair ZX-81/TS1000 and siblings did well, for a time in the States...

 

There was no reverse situation over here, the CBM VIC20 and 64 both done well and the Atari 8 bit lines picked up a head of steam also, Tandy failed miserably because of their ludicrous pricing for a relatively poor spec and TI killed themseleves over here because of the mistakes made with the pricing and performance of the TI99/4.

Yes, Yes, and Yes, and TI, did the same here in the States...

 

So basically, your American-you go into a store and see a BBC micro and you also see an Apple, why do you choose the Apple?(is it all to do with software availability?).

The Apple ][+ was my first Computer, I used it at High School, the Sinclair ZX-81 was my first home computer, ( $99.00 [uSD] as a kit ), and the Apple ][e was my Second Home Computer, ( full sized keyboard, fast Floppy Disk, nice monitor ).. I can't ever remember seeing a BBC or MSX Computer anywhere... I did see Commodores. Ataries, and TRS-80/CoCo's.

 

MarkO