sskino Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Folks, I have a home-made USB to SIO adapter that works well with ASPEQT, however I would like to know if there is anything out there, in the open source realm, that works like the ProSystem component to APE? Something that will allow me to attach my 1050 drive directly to my PC, using my adapter, and write disk images to floppies? I've tried to use ASPEQT for this by mounting DOS in drive 1, using a physical drive as drive 2, and then putting my images in drives 3 or 4 and then using the disk copy function to copy from drive 3/4 to drive 2 and this doesn't work because DOS keeps spitting me out with an error. Does anyone know of any such utility? It seems that everything I have stumbled across is meant for drive emulation running off a PC. I tried to use the Prosystem software with my adapter but it will never detect my drive. My adapter uses Ring Indicator for connection to the "Command" line of the SIO port. Should I be using something other than Ring Indicator if I want to get ProSystem to detect my drive?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Folks, I have a home-made USB to SIO adapter that works well with ASPEQT, however I would like to know if there is anything out there, in the open source realm, that works like the ProSystem component to APE? Something that will allow me to attach my 1050 drive directly to my PC, using my adapter, and write disk images to floppies? I've tried to use ASPEQT for this by mounting DOS in drive 1, using a physical drive as drive 2, and then putting my images in drives 3 or 4 and then using the disk copy function to copy from drive 3/4 to drive 2 and this doesn't work because DOS keeps spitting me out with an error. Does anyone know of any such utility? It seems that everything I have stumbled across is meant for drive emulation running off a PC. I tried to use the Prosystem software with my adapter but it will never detect my drive. My adapter uses Ring Indicator for connection to the "Command" line of the SIO port. Should I be using something other than Ring Indicator if I want to get ProSystem to detect my drive?? You can make some changes to your SIO2PC/USB adapter to allow it to function as a 1050-2-PC device, you can also add a switch to allow it to function as either. The schematics for MAX232 versions of both are available at: http://pages.suddenlink.net/wa5bdu/sio2pc.htm Atari8warez also sells a dual-mode version that works with AspeQT and ProSystem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Non modified Atari DOS only recognizes two drives. See "Mapping The Atari" location 1802. You could switch to a different DOS or just modify DOS II. That would probably be easiest. There were several programs that used a printer port, but they don't count unless you have a spare Atari ST or maybe a 20 MHz 486 laying around. Before the Atarimax device was one, it was two. You could build the original Prosystem cable. It would probably be easiest and more interesting to build the device using a RS232 to USB converter. It should be a simple device since there is 5V available from the USB port to power the chip and fool the drive into thinking a hot Atari is hooked up to it. No need to Zener diodes or 9V battery. Depending on build, it could work with either the Prosystem software or 1050-2-PC software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I've tried to use ASPEQT for this by mounting DOS in drive 1, using a physical drive as drive 2, and then putting my images in drives 3 or 4 and then using the disk copy function to copy from drive 3/4 to drive 2 and this doesn't work because DOS keeps spitting me out with an error. In order to use a mix of real and virtual drives, your SIO2PC must have a diode (a small signal diode like 1N914) between the SIO3 pin of the Atari and TXD pin of your SIO2PC to emulate an open collector output. Without it you won't be able to access your real drives when using AspeQt. After you add the diode you can use COPY2000 utility (a sector copier) to copy disks from/to real/virtual drives, and if your real drive has a speed enhancement you can even do it in high speed, or you can use DOS's copy feature to copy individual files. And of course if you use an Atari DOS like 2.0 or 2.5, and want to assign drive numbers 3 & 4 to a real drive, you need to configure the DOS to use 4 drives (default is 2) using the SETUP.COM utility that is on the DOS disk. I would like to know if there is anything out there, in the open source realm, that works like the ProSystem component to APE? Something that will allow me to attach my 1050 drive directly to my PC, using my adapter, and write disk images to floppies? Not yet.... Edited January 28, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sskino Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Excellent! That's exactly what I needed to know! Thanks for the information! The diagram I went by didn't make any mention of the Diode, so I was wondering. I'll get it fixed and try again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Which diagram did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Interesting.... I've actually been asked a couple times why folks have trouble mixing real devices and a couple of ready-made SIO2PC adapters and MacOS X. I could never really find a good answer. The couple I've built I've used SparkFun FT232RL breakout boards which I use for several of my other projects too. I've never added a diode to either of the SIO2PC adapters I've built with them. They work like a charm with SIO2OSX/Aspeqt, a real Atari 850, and a Happy 1050 on the same SIO chain. With multiple Ataris, and multiple Macs. Is this just not necessary with the USB->TTL serial chips? I've never had any issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 For the 1489 and probably for the MAX232, the output line has an on chip ~2k resistor tied to V+. I can't remember the state with no input but I would guess output is passive pullup with the 2k. This is pretty much standard in all RS232 implementation in that nothing floats. I hope I am being clear, an onchip trasistor pulls the line low and can probably sink 20-30 mamps, but when high the transistor is in the off state and the 2k resistor just pulls the line high. So at least for those devices a diode would eliminate everything else on the bus trying to pull that 2k resistor low. But 2k Ohm to 5V is a pretty puny load. http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/321/DS1489-pdf.php But there is so much myth and speculation. I think 90% of the people that complain about the implementation say you need an off chip resistor to V+ and some like Atari8maestro say to use a 680 Ohm to get it to work with an ATR8000. Could be lousy cables or a near failing POKEY chip. *BUT* you never know what someone else did. Some of the early sio2pc devices used actively driven high outputs. If you had one of these devices on the same bus w/o a diode, the other device would be trying to drive the bus low while the SIO2PC device was trying to drive it high => dead short. If every one of those SIO2PC USB ttl versions just uses a passive pull up, shouldn't be much of a problem. If two of them use actively driven outputs w/o a diode, dead short. If someone hooks up an early SIO2PC device without the diode or 1489/MAX232 chips, could be problems. You could check, just see how much current the device will source. If it is piddling amount => just a passive pull up and safe to mix, but you never know if someone will stick a brand X converter in theirs that won't be safe to mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sskino Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 I cannot seem to locate the link I used to build this device. I used the same breakout board that Kogden used; The Sparkfun FT232RL. Basically the diagram I used was more of a list of connections, stating that you needed to connect Pins 3,4,5 and 7 to the breakout board's TX, RX, Ground and either RI, DSR or CSR pins. I chose to use RI for mine. But the instructions I went off of made no mention of a Diode.I've tried this adapter on my Mac (older PowerMac G5) and it works with the SIO2OSX software just fine, but only if I use just the virtual drive. Adding a physical drive into the mix prevents the software from working at all. On my PC, AspeQt works fine as long as I am not copying disks. I can add a physical drive in and AspeQt continues to work, but attempting to copy disks from a virtual to physical drive generates an error 138. Using the Atari810 software works the best and I am able to copy disks but oddly only ATR disk images that are NOT 90KB (single density?).So, where exactly does the diode go? Is there a diagram I can use to check my build against? You mention I need a diode from Pin3 of the SIO port to the TX line of the breakout board, but I just wanted to make sure I get this down correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Interesting.... I've actually been asked a couple times why folks have trouble mixing real devices and a couple of ready-made SIO2PC adapters and MacOS X. I could never really find a good answer. The couple I've built I've used SparkFun FT232RL breakout boards which I use for several of my other projects too. I've never added a diode to either of the SIO2PC adapters I've built with them. They work like a charm with SIO2OSX/Aspeqt, a real Atari 850, and a Happy 1050 on the same SIO chain. With multiple Ataris, and multiple Macs. Is this just not necessary with the USB->TTL serial chips? I've never had any issues. FTDI FT232RL works without a diode (at least in my SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB design), but FT231X for example does not. So it seems that some chips do work sometimes, some don't. I asked FTDI about this discrepency and didn't get a definite answer. Although they said that neither chip has an open collector type output, so the differences must lie in the voltage levels or some other detail in the device circuitry. Using a diode will make sure that it works in all cases. Edited January 28, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) R disk images that are NOT 90KB (single density?). So, where exactly does the diode go? Is there a diagram I can use to check my build against? You mention I need a diode from Pin3 of the SIO port to the TX line of the breakout board, but I just wanted to make sure I get this down correctly. You can put the diode the way it is shown on the following diagram, but since you use a breakout board you would need to put the diode inline with SIO wire SIO3 Edited January 28, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemiel Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Disks reader only, needs FTDI 232: http://www.atari.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11511 Edited January 28, 2015 by lemiel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ripdubski Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 In order to use a mix of real and virtual drives, your SIO2PC must have a diode (a small signal diode like 1N914) between the SIO3 pin of the Atari and TXD pin of your SIO2PC to emulate an open collector output. Without it you won't be able to access your real drives when using AspeQt. After you add the diode you can use COPY2000 utility (a sector copier) to copy disks from/to real/virtual drives, and if your real drive has a speed enhancement you can even do it in high speed, or you can use DOS's copy feature to copy individual files. And of course if you use an Atari DOS like 2.0 or 2.5, and want to assign drive numbers 3 & 4 to a real drive, you need to configure the DOS to use 4 drives (default is 2) using the SETUP.COM utility that is on the DOS disk. Not yet.... I have your 10502PC/Dual (v3.0 i think) and can't make it work mixing real and virtual drives. one or the other, not both concurrently. is there a secret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I have your 10502PC/Dual (v3.0 i think) and can't make it work mixing real and virtual drives. one or the other, not both concurrently. is there a secret? No there is no secret, with version 3.0 I started using FT231X chip instead of FT232RL because I needed to save space in order to fit the PCB into an SIO plug. FT232RL versions worked fine in a real/virtual disk mix without a diode on the TXD line but FT231X apparently failed, unfortunately I became aware of the situation only after I started to sell the devices so there was no way i could have changed the design. Version 3.1 introduced a diode so it also works fine in a mixed drive scenario. I didn't issue a "recall" as most people seemed to be happy with what they had. I had only two people who notified me of the problem and only one of them wanted an exchange. So, it's no secret but it wasn't publicly announced either. The v3.0 device can also be modified by the user by replacing the short wire going from the PCB to pin 3 of the SIO plug with a small signal diode, but because the space is very limited inside the plug, it may not be as easy to do as some other upgrades. Another caveat is that you will lose 10502PC functionality when you insert the diode, so a home made fix is a compromise solution. V3.1 on the other hand retains 10502PC functionality while it also works in a mixed drive environment. Anyone who purchased a V3.0 device and needs the mixed drive environment capability can PM me to get an exchange, I do however require the return of the purchased device before I can send a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sskino Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Well, thanks for the information. I went ahead and added a diode to the adapter but it made no difference. However, what's interesting is that my failures seem to be more related to the ATR disk images than to the adapter. Previously, I was using either the DOS2.5 or MyDOS disk copy option from the DOS menu and when I attempted to copy disks from a virtual to a physical drive, I would get the error 138/139 messages. It seemed to only happen with games that I was copying that were single density disk images (about 90K in size). I also noticed that I would not get this error with certain disks images that were larger, presumably double density (about 130K) disk images. After you recommended using the Copy 2000 utility, I continued to have these errors but I tried it on a wider range of images, which I pulled down during this test. I was able to copy some of the single density disk images without a problem using the Copy 2000 tool but the same ones that failed earlier with DOS/MyDOS, continue to fail using the Copy 2000. What's even more odd is that these images will boot fine and don't seem to exhibit any problems, when booting from a virtual drive, but copying them over to a physical drive does not work.So, I'm not really sure what the cause of this problem is. But I was at least able to get some images copied over to disk!At this point I'm not sure if the diode really did anything. I'm going to remove it any try again to see if I get the same results. Edited January 30, 2015 by sskino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Which OS are you using on the Atari? What are your AspeQt speed settings? Is the PC running Windows or Linux/Mac OS, which version? Edited January 30, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sskino Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I have a couple different systems I tried. My Win7 box running AspeQt and my older WinXP laptop also running AspeQt. I've used Atari810 on the laptop also and both systems and applications have the same result. Some disks images will write to a physical drive some (most) will error out. I've also used my old PowerMac G5 running OSX 10.5 with SIO2OSX and that gives me the same results.. Tried several different 1050 drives (I have four drives) and still the same. It seems really specific to the images, so maybe the images I'm getting are junk. Been downloading them from "The Old Computer" website. I get most of my other system images there and haven't had any problems though. (C64/128, Apple II, Amiga)All are set up for serial speed of 56K (SIO shows 19200 though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 IMNSHO: Test using DSR vs. RI if you are going faster then 19.2k BAUD. It really becomes pronounced<meaning almost unusable> at ~800 MHz Pentium/XP level of performance. It is less of a problem with boxes that have a higher level of performance of course. Intel boxes use<d?> a interrupt priority scheme similar to our Ataris in that they figured it was OK to wait for five rings<sic> before they answered the phone. I wouldn't be surprised if it was carried forward on anything and in everything. Symptom could be anything though. Everything from a failing hard drive to fragmented hard drive to background processes and as you noted, busted ATR. Eliminate the easy stuff like switching to DSR and defrag your drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) If you're getting the same results from the same images at all times no matter what other variable has changed, then it must be the images as you said, try another image file of the same software and see what happens. IMHO I don't think DSR vs. RI will make any difference. I am successfully using DSR with a P4 400Mhz. Edited January 31, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 If you're getting the same results from the same images at all times no matter what other variable has changed, then it must be the images as you said, try another image file of the same software and see what happens. IMHO I don't think DSR vs. RI will make any difference. I am successfully using DSR with a P4 400Mhz. I tested it on the system described using Hias's fast routines with a RS232 port on the IBM side. It was a bit unusual of a system in that it was running XP for embedded off a 512 meg CF and MB used one of those "Centaur Hauls"<?> Intel work alikes. Same Hias, same SIO2PC interface, same 8 bit computer, only change RI => DSR. Pretty consistent in that when APE was developed as Windows software Steve noticed the same thing. I was thinking about making a video showing it, but then I figured no one but me would have an Intel box that old and feeble laying around. Join the club anyway! It's about Windows. I've run the SIO2PC<DOS> on PC/XT class machines using RI w/o a problem. I doubt if there are two versions of Windows that in practice are identical. Talking XP to XP and not just W95 to W8.1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Correction!... my XP PC is not a P4 400Mgz, it is P4 2.4Ghz.... sorry for the confusion, so yeah I cannot really comment on PCs running at ~800Mhz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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