R.Cade Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) AppleSauce is way too little too late... Most Apple original disks I attempt to image are already dead and falling apart. I do have a good bit of KF images where people have sent me disks for imaging over the years, but a large portion of A2 disks are educational titles anyway, and nobody cares about that. Also, this is not a new idea, and nothing is 100%. Edited June 24, 2018 by R.Cade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckybuck Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) ijor, at no time I had any intentions to make 'aggressive marketing' for something. I haven't even a Kryo nor a SCP, but I trust the ones, who have such devices. Free world, free decisions. Free Atari users to use whatever they want. Edited June 24, 2018 by luckybuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) Hi Pete, AppleSauce is way too little too late... Most Apple disks I attempt to image are already dead and falling apart. Really? Strange. Why they should be much worse than Atari (or Commodore) disks? Btw, I assume AppleSauce can interface to standard PC drives as well (at least in the near future), and not only with Apple drives. Because otherwise I would say that the other options are better for Atari. Not that an Apple drive couldn't be used, but certainly it wouldn't be my first choice. Edited June 24, 2018 by ijor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ijor Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 ijor, at no time I had any intentions to make 'aggressive marketing' for something. I haven't even a Kryo nor a SCP, but I trust the ones who have such devices. Free world, free decisions. Free Atari users to use what ever they want. I wasn't referring to you at all. I am terribly sorry for not being clear enough. I was talking about the marketing style of the developers of the Kryoflux, the SCP, this new AppleSauce board, and also at some point Catweasel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckybuck Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Ah o. k., maybe my fault, too, not to get the point at once. Yes, if they may need it for a living, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 The more choices there are the better to find one that is best for each need. The more choices there are the better for competition and improvements. The more choices also is better for pricing... Nice to see more and not less! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) I won't be fully satisfied until we have the ability to recreate synapse protection including the physical decaying / falling apart disk! Edited June 24, 2018 by Shannon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckybuck Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Shannon, we already have! But it is my fault. Last autumn the brakthrough was made by bright guys, but I couldn't brought it into the Wiki yet. Will do so in the near future. Sorry to all, again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 For DjayBee: The following programs I have again converted, for comparison, some program was read 2x or recorded only after a backup of the original diskette. External_Dagger_Dungeon_Disk_Side1__SSIQuestron_Disk2_Side1__SSIThreshold__Sierra_On-Line_INCSpy_Hunter__SegaSuper_BoulderDash_Side1__ECACut+Paste_Program_Disk__ECASilent_Service__MicroProseStarbowl_Football__Gamestar And the Movie Maker is now complete. Two programs will follow later when I have the BitWriter 1050 Replica installed and can make a copy. Montezumas_Revenge__DataByteMr.Robot_and_his_Robot_Factory__Databyte Check_1.zip Check_2.zip Movie_Maker__ECA.zip 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 A big thank you to the people who brought this project to life and devote a lot of devotion to every single dump. All in return, you publish for us all registered programs without any consideration. For that you receive my respect and support. Keep it up!Also, I was able to recover some of my originals by replacing the floppy disk and writing back the dump over the SCP. I would not have succeeded without you. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Cade Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Hi Pete, Really? Strange. Why they should be much worse than Atari (or Commodore) disks? Because they are usually a few years older. Don't get me wrong, a lot of Commodore disks are at the end also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Cade Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) Odd that the new collection has less than the old collection. Were some dumps thought to be bad and removed? First example I noticed... Zorro is not in the new torrent. Edited June 25, 2018 by R.Cade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) as previously stated, if it was not verified and original it can't be in the torrent... Quality is job one, these will be added in as the original disks and steams/dumps are verified... Edited June 25, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farb Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 First example I noticed... Zorro is not in the new torrent. @BigBen, with regards to Zorro, I saw a photo of the disk in your "friend" photos but no dump in the ZIP files. Was it a bad disk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Asylum new dump Asylum__Intelligent_Statements__Backup_from_Original_Disk.zip 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBen Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 @BigBen, with regards to Zorro, I saw a photo of the disk in your "friend" photos but no dump in the ZIP files. Was it a bad disk? Sorry, here the dump. Zorro__Datasoft.zip 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farb Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 Sorry, here the dump. Perfect, thank you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DjayBee Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Regarding AppleSauce: John Romero interviewing the guy who makes it https://appletimewarp.libsyn.com/episode-6-applesauce-with-john-keoni-morris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kr0tki Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) didn't try to fix anything, and if someone starts another torrent but in the format you are looking for then maybe they can call it no zip preserved... it's something they chose to do... I didn't initiate the other torrents so that's something you can take up with them..As I already wrote, fragmenting seeder pool is bad idea. zips take up less space, transfer faster.. and decompress super fast...When I want to use the torrent's contents while still remaining a seeder, the zipped archive actually takes twice the space, because I now have to store two copies of the archive - one zipped for seeding, one unzipped for daily use. As for transfering faster, the "external" ZIP archive is compression level 0 anyway, so it's not really smaller, and does not transfer faster at all. I apologize if that extra click is a bother.. for most it's all automatic and isn't even noticed... at this point what is it I can do to make you happy... as this can go round and round.... do you want two or three torrents and two or three clouds and two or three ftp and two or three http from here on out..You want to stop going round and round - great idea, just stop reiterating the same arguments. I already wrote why I consider multiple torrents a bad idea, so I don't understand why you keep coming back to this idea again. since some prefer a zip of zips, some prefer just a zip, and some prefer no zips at all...Is that so? Could you point me to a single person that complained when the previous torrent releases were made as directories of zipped files? Edited June 26, 2018 by Kr0tki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farb Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) I really don't want to see _The Doctor__ get any grief over his decision to help out here. I didn't want to take the time from dump analysis to set up torrent hosting and he helped me out. As part of that help, he made a decision to create a single ZIP. I personally don't think it's a big deal but I'm also not a torrent consumer and Kr0tki raises some valid points about simultaneous consumption and seeding. I definitely think a single ZIP was far better than waiting another several weeks (or more) to get a new torrent published. Can we re-evaluate whether a single ZIP or expanded directory structure is the direction to go in when it comes time to do the next torrent? Edited June 26, 2018 by Farb 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheonix Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 I thought I'd go ahead and put my thoughts in. It is 2 major point.... 1) Yes, I personally think individual zips are better than a single zip. This is so people can selectively download. If someone only wants a handful of the titles, they still have to make room and download all of them just to get the few. 2) That being said, I would "MUCH" rather have a single zip torrent than no torrent at all. _The Doctor__ did us a favor and put up a torrent with the latest library. Was it the perfect torrent for me? No. Did it upset me in any way? Again, no. To put it in a fairly common analogy.... Someone tells you they are starving and asks for some food. You then offer them a sandwich and they start complaining about how they don't like it, and how you should have given them a steak, etc... How is that going to make you feel? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farb Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 Sorry, couldn't resist. It's almost lunch time... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) I suggested in the testing group dm that we not bother zipping anything at all, it didn't spark any conversation. These are not big files, with modern disk block sizes the difference in disk usage is fairly small less than 100MB Having them unzipped exposed the file extension so we can benefit from format specific functionality, unique icons etc. They are usable everywhere from RespeQt to Atari800 to Altirra etc., not every app supports zipped files with multiple items in them. If files are zipped without regard to correct text encoding the filename may change when the archive tool guesses which encoding to use and the unarchiver guesses too. We actually hit that last issue with the current torrent EDIT: OTOH: Completely agree with Pheonix. A torrent you have to unzip recursively to use is better than no torrent at all. Edited June 26, 2018 by Mr Robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farb Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 I suggested in the testing group dm that we not bother zipping anything at all, it didn't spark any conversation. The reason it didn't spark any conversations during testing was that it required investigation into whether ClrMamePro could effectively do it which nobody (including myself) wanted to take on. That in turn raised the question of why I was generating a DAT file from the database vs. having ClrMamePro generate a DAT file from the directory structure, etc. It boils down to there not being a "right" way to do any of this. There's only the opinions and decisions made by the people doing the work. This recent change to a single torrent ZIP is a perfect example of a situation where changing something seemingly arbitrary can cause dissatisfaction. People earlier on expressed dissatisfaction with having to re-download a full torrent each release but there was also a negative reaction when I suggested we do away with the torrent and simply make everything available as individual downloads on the website. Sorry, I'm not trying to make this sound like a rant, but I just want to highlight that there's simply not going to be a way to make everyone happy. The current approach I chose of creating a directory of individual ZIP files mimics how TOSEC has been doing it for many years and I saw no reason to re-invent the wheel. If the recent introduction of non-ASCII characters to the database is creating problems, then we should certainly explore ways to fix it. My guess is the former is caused by ClrMamePro somehow not handling non-ASCII characters correctly since it is responsible for generating the ZIP files. I've always said that the torrent is a nice (and more cost-effective) way to get emulation-friendly files into the hands of the community but it is not the primary goal of the project. Thus, I don't want to spend any more time on it than necessary. IMHO, it is far more valuable for everyone that has the knowledge, capability and desire to keep focusing on actual preservation efforts because the clock is ticking. There is still plenty of work to do in that area. If someone wants to take on identifying tools and techniques that will allow us to generate a torrent everyone is happy with and also willing to generate and seed said torrent, I'm certainly open to collaborating on it. I agree with Kr0tki that multiple torrents is not a path I believe we should go down since it is more work, less effective for distribution and will potentially lead to confusion as to what is "official". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) The reason it didn't spark any conversations during testing was that it required investigation into whether ClrMamePro could effectively do it which nobody (including myself) wanted to take on. As I mentioned at the time. There is just a single switch to turn off compression. You end up with a folder per title and no zip files. That in turn raised the question of why I was generating a DAT file from the database vs. having ClrMamePro generate a DAT file from the directory structure, etc. It boils down to there not being a "right" way to do any of this. There's only the opinions and decisions made by the people doing the work. And as I said at the time, however you want to do it is fine, it works both ways. If the recent introduction of non-ASCII characters to the database is creating problems, then we should certainly explore ways to fix it. My guess is the former is caused by ClrMamePro somehow not handling non-ASCII characters correctly since it is responsible for generating the ZIP files. ClrMamePro is doing fine, it's generating the correct zip filenames, they match the file filenames. The problem is that there is no explicit character encoding to a filename and when the files are bundled up into another zip the unzipper has to guess what encoding to use. It's not an exact science but it does OK 80%+ of the time. If it guesses wrong, you get incorrect filenames. If you force an encoding scheme, you can get the incorrect ones right, but other filenames now become incorrect. The Zip spec says it supports UTF-8 but the big zip wasn't zipped with that encoding so forcing UTF-8 garbles the files even worse. I've always said that the torrent is a nice (and more cost-effective) way to get emulation-friendly files into the hands of the community but it is not the primary goal of the project. Thus, I don't want to spend any more time on it than necessary. IMHO, it is far more valuable for everyone that has the knowledge, capability and desire to keep focusing on actual preservation efforts because the clock is ticking. There is still plenty of work to do in that area. If someone wants to take on identifying tools and techniques that will allow us to generate a torrent everyone is happy with and also willing to generate and seed said torrent, I'm certainly open to collaborating on it. I agree with Kr0tki that multiple torrents is not a path I believe we should go down since it is more work, less effective for distribution and will potentially lead to confusion as to what is "official". I'd volunteer for that but my upstream bandwidth is pitifully slow and metered (Thanks AT&T!) Messing around with ClrMamePro just now has identified 5 missing titles btw! Edited June 26, 2018 by Mr Robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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