How has this not been posted yet? Retro VGS

[CPUWIZ]

I like marshmallows.

[jaybird3rd]

On the glide path:13h for 53K -> 490h to go to hit the goal at this rate -> 20 days

Doesn't that assume, though, that they're able to maintain their current rate? With all the promotion and "sizzling" and 3D rendering that they've been busying themselves with (when they should have been prototyping!) these past few months, I have a feeling that all those who were predisposed to support them are already aware of the campaign and will pledge early. For whatever it's worth, I predict it will fizzle out once the "true believers" have pledged all they can, and once the negative publicity here and elsewhere has accumulated enough to deter potential latecomers. Not to compare apples to oranges, but their Intellivision Gen2 campaign played out in much the same way.

 

(It's still very early, of course, but the current CrowdCharts prediction is that they will reach 54% 52% of their goal.)

[phoenixdownita]

On another note.
They ask you to add the games to the pledge and then they will contact you post campaign to confirm what games you wanted.
I suspect though that the money would first count against the campaign itself and that would muddy the water like crazy because a chunk has to go for the games ... that is why KS does not allow you to bundle stuff YOU don't own/produce yourself ... another bizarre gotcha.
The way it is going it may not matter but even if say 20% of all the pledges has a game content they really would have missed the mark and couldn't realistically use that money ... could they?


@Jay
I am already showing the trend slowing down, but this is the first day and I have never assisted to a KS or IGG campaign so I have no clue if they usually start fast and then calm down or the other way around.


EDIT (yeah I have too much time, and I already wasted 2 days of work following this thing, I need my meds)

What is a little strange is that with the 2 big wigs in the team (25Y and counting of experience, stratospheric connections, blah blah blah) they couldn't convince say 3-400 people of their immediate entourage to back them up on day 1? Surely with all the friends they have in the VG industry and all the video games studios they claim to CRAVE a cart based system it should be possible to have say 1000 of them professionals back the system to have a meteoric rise (a 1000 "friends" pitching in 500US$ -> 500K$ all in the first day and that would show momentum)

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[triverse]

On another note.

They ask you to add the games to the pledge and then they will contact you post campaign to confirm what games you wanted.

I suspect though that the money would first count against the campaign itself and that would muddy the water like crazy because a chunk has to go for the games ... that is why KS does not allow you to bundle stuff YOU don't own/produce yourself ... another bizarre gotcha.

The way it is going ti may not matter but even if say 20% of all the pledges has a game content they really would have missed the mark and couldn't realistically use that money ... could they?

 

 

@Jay

I am already showing the trend slowing down, but this is the first day and I have never assisted to a KS or IGG campaign so I have no clue if the usually start fast and then calm down or the other way around.

We were bouncing this idea around earlier within the RGM team. They are wanting $1.95 million, or so, for base funding. Let's look at the numbers folks, I will be using these in a future article so get ready.

 

The average cost for add-on games is $45 and the minimum base system is $300. If each person backing this was to pick a game and the console then that would be a total of $345. Dividing $1.95 million by $345 gives us a total of 5,652.17 consoles "sold". Multiply that by $300 (the amount that RETRO would be guaranteed to get to keep) and we get $1.65 million, about 15% below their "minimum" goal. So, this tells us that they will magically be able to do everything needed after taking a 15% or so loss right off the bat, if funded?

 

I do hope this is planned into their business plan. I mean, any additional money that is pledged towards games cannot be kept by RETRO, but it will be counted towards their goal according to the way they have the campaign setup. It gets even hairier for them when you figure there will be people that will buy the console and then, for some reason, purchase ALL six launch titles. This makes things even more murkier, and the actual amount that RETRO will receive goes down, when you figure in the hardcore backer.

 

So yeah, they won't get to keep ALL of the money pledged towards the games, I am sure they get some to manufacture the carts and such though (and probably have a profit margin figured in on that stuff). This is going to be interesting to watch develop.

[phoenixdownita]

We were bouncing this idea around earlier within the RGM team. They are wanting $1.95 million, or so, for base funding. Let's look at the numbers folks, I will be using these in a future article so get ready.

 

The average cost for add-on games is $45 and the minimum base system is $300. If each person backing this was to pick a game and the console then that would be a total of $345. Dividing $1.95 million by $345 gives us a total of 5,652.17 consoles "sold". Multiply that by $300 (the amount that RETRO would be guaranteed to get to keep) and we get $1.65 million, about 15% below their "minimum" goal. So, this tells us that they will magically be able to do everything needed after taking a 15% or so loss right off the bat, if funded?

 

I do hope this is planned into their business plan. I mean, any additional money that is pledged towards games cannot be kept by RETRO, but it will be counted towards their goal according to the way they have the campaign setup. It gets even hairier for them when you figure there will be people that will buy the console and then, for some reason, purchase ALL six launch titles. This makes things even more murkier, and the actual amount that RETRO will receive goes down, when you figure in the hardcore backer.

 

So yeah, they won't get to keep ALL of the money pledged towards the games, I am sure they get some to manufacture the carts and such though (and probably have a profit margin figured in on that stuff). This is going to be interesting to watch develop.

Quite a roundabout math to say that 45US$ is 15% of 300US$ so that each games sold with a console on average takes away 15% to their campaign, but yeah this is correct.

 

EDIT:

obviously at the 450US$ tier a game is average of 10% so we know that even at that higher tier at least 10% shouldn't count.

I think I like KS more and more, those rules are well thought out to avoid meddling too many things together,

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[StopDrop&Retro]

Hmmm, I guess I will have to contact Mike some other way about an interview for his IndieGoGo campaign.

 

He gave an interview to these guys and they only have two subscribers to their YouTube channel. I don't think you'll have a problem. Especially a few days or a week from now when it enters the typical slump in supporters period of the campaign.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWm3PULPk70

Edited September 20, 2015 by StopDrop&Retro

[triverse]

Funny how that worked out. I was actually going by the prices of the games averaged out and the other values they mentioned. I was trying to show the math because I am used to people trying to poke holes in my logic over on RGM.

[phoenixdownita]

Funny how that worked out. I was actually going by the prices of the games averaged out and the other values they mentioned. I was trying to show the math because I am used to people trying to poke holes in my logic over on RGM.

 

It's basic math, you should have no issue backing up your logic with it, but I have no idea what kind of people you have to deal with on RGM, so sometimes the shortest path among two points it's NOT a straight line.

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+Random Terrain]

I like marshmallows.

 

That's nice, but does your butt itch?

[triverse]

We get all kinds over there. Most, when dealing with something like the RETRO VGS (where feelings can run deep) it gets stupid fast. It is probably that way with all things though, some people just get too emotionally involved. We do get quite a few people that can string sentences together without hurling insults too though. I am hoping some of those read my latest article on the RETRO VGS.

[phoenixdownita]

I am stating the obvious but the campaign will likely slow to a crawl 'till the sun rises in Europe, assuming they care over there. [sorry but I am stereotyping and assuming Australians {CJ excluded as he really doesn't care} and Asians are not super interested at this stage]

 

I do not know how many international backers there would be, given their choice of 9:00AM PST on a Saturday they didn't give even Europe much of a chance to pitch in (it was 4PM UTC there) ... even the East Coast had only the afternoon to "help" on day 1.

Edited September 20, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[PlaysWithWolves]

I do hope this is planned into their business plan. I mean, any additional money that is pledged towards games cannot be kept by RETRO, but it will be counted towards their goal according to the way they have the campaign setup.

 

 

RETRO would be doing everything except the game software, such as burning cartridge ROMs and in-house printing. Possibly even get a licensing fee. Why wouldn't this be a net-gain toward the campaign? Unless I'm missing something, it's just another way to get some more money for their project. Sure, it won't be 100% but it would be something. It's just like selling any other accessory; like as a controller.

 

Or am I mistaken? I did just wake up to the lovely sounds of my wife hacking up a lung due to allergies. So, I could still be groggy.

[rob_ocelot]

Do IGG and KS have any sort of protection against the campaigners shilling support to make their campaigns appear more successful than they actually are?

 

There must be nothing more frustrating than for a campaign to be stuck at the 95% mark -- that alone would be too tempting for a campaign owner to shill a few extra sales to put it over the top.

 

(and no, I'm not implying that Mike & Co. are doing this)

[Andromeda Stardust]

[delete]

Edited September 20, 2015 by stardust4ever

[StopDrop&Retro]

Do IGG and KS have any sort of protection against the campaigners shilling support to make their campaigns appear more successful than they actually are?

 

There must be nothing more frustrating than for a campaign to be stuck at the 95% mark -- that alone would be too tempting for a campaign owner to shill a few extra sales to put it over the top.

 

(and no, I'm not implying that Mike & Co. are doing this)

 

It happens more often than you think. KS has a rule against it but it can be hard to catch. They have shut down more than one campaign that was guilty of it. Areal was a big one. I also remember when Ouya was having a promotion to help KS game projects that committed to their console, KS froze or shut down a few games.

 

I'm not aware of Indiegogo's having a rule about this. I don't bother to look up Indiegogo's rules, they're so permissive for project creators and lack any accountability to backers so I just assume they operate like the wild west.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Wow. Kevin ?!?!

 

First off, we were going to pay Kevin his asking price for the licensing of the cores and this was build into our funding goal ($10K/core) and had another $50K +/- in our funding budget to pay him for the 16 bit cores he has yet to develop. And these could have been shared with the community or whatever, not exclusive to us. And I could care less if Kevin used these cores to sell his board in addition to ours, he could have had both opportunities. We are selling two entirely different kinds of products. It really is amazing how everything gets turned around in these forums.

 

We are just three legitimate guys who want to bring a cool product to market. It's as simple as that. And set up it up as a real sustainable business that can continue to support the platform for a long time.

 

As of this post, I am going to chime out here as there is nothing that even remotely comes in the form of meaningful constructive criticism. And Kevin, I guess we will look elsewhere for our core development.

Ouch.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Kevtris,

 

I had to read your post a few times to wrap my head around the specs of this little masterpiece of yours.

 

Just my two cents on a few things:

 

1) Don't bother with anything else than HDMI, today it's just not worth the trouble to support the older audio/video outputs, IMHO.

 

Not sure I totally agree. At the very least, keep analog audio an option. I'm tired of using splitters to breakoff analog audio to the sound system. Anyone using a DVI monitor with HDMI sources will know what a pain it is buyingadapters to separate andparse the audio.

 

Also, some gamers prefer the soft nostalgic composite or analog video fed to a CRT.

[CGQuarterly]

I am stating the obvious but the campaign will likely slow to a crawl 'till the sun rises in Europe, assuming they care over there. [sorry but I am stereotyping and assuming Australians {CJ excluded as he really doesn't care} and Asians are not super interested at this stage]

 

I do not know how many international backers there would be, given their choice of 9:00AM PST on a Saturday they didn't give even Europe much of a chance to pitch in (it was 4PM UTC there) ... even the East Coast had only the afternoon to "help" on day 1.

 

The campaign went live this morning at 9AM pacific time, which is late afternoon/early evening in Europe. And it's afternoon in Australia right now. I don't think there is going to be any more of a "surge" of supporters. I think they will get some more tomorrow, and after that unless this thing gets some coverage that goes viral, stick a fork in it.

 

 

It happens more often than you think. KS has a rule against it but it can be hard to catch. They have shut down more than one campaign that was guilty of it. Areal was a big one. I also remember when Ouya was having a promotion to help KS game projects that committed to their console, KS froze or shut down a few games.

 

I'm not aware of Indiegogo's having a rule about this. I don't bother to look up Indiegogo's rules, they're so permissive for project creators and lack any accountability to backers so I just assume they operate like the wild west.

 

I don't see these three guys coming up with the kind of money that they would need to shill-back this project. If they had that kind of money available to them, they wouldn't need to crowd-fund the development of their prototype in the first place.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Please oh please, contact the RPi guys and make your board a HAT for that system (go KS if you need funding, I'm in). There will be droves of people attracted by the combo.

The base CPU/GPU of the RPi2 is enough to drive a decent FPGA, depending on how/what you can tap from the GPIO and how you can buffer the communications between the VideoCoreIV GPU and your FPGAs it could still allow for a hell of a hybrid system AND it will open up cheap FPGA dev to the masses (using the RPi has the host dev and controller if nothing else).

I can see a set of FPGA HATs, from cheaper (for 8bits system) to more powerful (for more beefy cores).

^^This!

[+CyranoJ]

I am stating the obvious but the campaign will likely slow to a crawl 'till the sun rises in Europe, assuming they care over there. [sorry but I am stereotyping and assuming Australians {CJ excluded as he really doesn't care} and Asians are not super interested at this stage]

 

I'd be 'super interested' if this wasn't being handled by snake-oil merchants, or it actually existed. I'd back Kevin in a heartbeat.

[GroovyBee]

So... they lost the guy supplying the IP for their key selling point, huh? I'd recommend starting here :-

 

http://www.embedded.com/design/operating-systems/4415940/Porting-Android-on-embedded-platforms--a-step-wise-approach

https://source.android.com/devices/

 

If they don't want to make an Android device then get Mesa3d ported for OpenGL support, or the Indie Android/iOS developers won't be getting anything out the door any time soon.

[Andromeda Stardust]

So... they lost the guy supplying the IP for their key selling point, huh? I'd recommend starting here :-

 

http://www.embedded.com/design/operating-systems/4415940/Porting-Android-on-embedded-platforms--a-step-wise-approach

https://source.android.com/devices/

 

If they don't want to make an Android device then get Mesa3d ported for OpenGL support, or the Indie Android/iOS developers won't be getting anything out the door any time soon.

Huh? Android apps are coded for an ARM processor. Porting them to a non-Android device running on the same ARM socket should be easy. It's no different than porting from iOS or Windows RT. They all share the same CPU architecture with RetroVGS and even Raspberry Pi.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Down to 50% on crowdcharts. Take it as a sign things are slowing dramatically...

http://crowdcharts.com/campaign/retro-vgs

[GroovyBee]

Huh? Android apps are coded for an ARM processor. Porting them to a non-Android device running on the same ARM socket should be easy. It's no different than porting from iOS or Windows RT. They all share the same CPU architecture with RetroVGS and even Raspberry Pi.

Nope! Most Android apps are written in Java which is the first hurdle to overcome in porting them to RVGS. Getting direct access the frame buffer isn't possible in iOS or Android, its all done with surfaces and a display controller manager. Surfaces are normally accessed through an API like OpenGL(ES) or DirectX. Yep, even 2D games use OpenGL for texture handling and display. Due to their parallel nature GPUs take some of the load from the CPU. When you are down to bare metal programming (as is implied with the RVGS) managing your resources gets a whole lot more complex e.g. all the "industry standard", built in libraries that you've relied on (in order to get your game out the door) have to be written by the developer team from scratch or ported. That adds time, complexity and has the potential to introduce more bugs.

 

Just because its ARM doesn't mean its easy .

[Pixelboy]

A few more thoughts about some kind of new "retro" videogame system I thought I would throw out there:

 

I was thinking the other day if you really wanted to make some kind of "new" retro videogame system, the best approach might be to start with a retro-style video interface, including sprites, background layers, and all the usual trappings of say the SNES, genesis, etc. but the twist is integrating a modern CPU such as an ARM with it. Think 256+ sprites per scanline, any size, 8 background layers with 'mode 7' style rotation/scaling, and with 32 channel 16 bit stereo digital audio.

 

This would allow for retro-style games, done in a more original form but with a modern CPU to make coding it so much easier and faster. The sprite and background engines would be fairly decent, and more capable of either SNES or genesis, while still operating in a similar same manner. That would kind of "enforce" the look and feel of the games while giving it most of the modern day conveniences like fast CPUs and large storage capabilities and being able to write your code in i.e. C.

 

The big problem with doing this though is the total 100% lack of games for it. Without enticing exclusive games that people would gotta have, it's a total nonstarter. No one is going to take hundreds to thousands of manhours writing games for such a system if it does not have an installed base. And it can't get an installed base without games. Frankly, MAKING the hardware is the super duper easy part. Writing the games to run on it... not so much. You pretty much have to give a developer buckets of money to write an exclusive game, because they might never see any more money once the initial payment is made if it doesn't take off.

Man, this thread is moving along really fast...

 

I created a thread just yesterday (to mark my 6666th post on AtariAge) which explains my thoughts on the subject of a retro-console. My views seem to meet up with yours to a certain extent, but my conclusion is that the retro-console would need to be really low-tech, so that bedroom coders would be interested in making games for the system if it came with a development suite (with emulator) for PC and Mac. See here:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242921-what-it-takes-to-make-a-retro-console-moderately-successful/